[J m HofMarN]

I'm going to issue the strongest condemnation of these movies yet on this site. I'm going to do this by coming to the heart of their problem. I know there's been some debate as to whether RotJ was good or not. I am definately of the opinion that it is! Why? Because it is a part of us all. How many times is the OT quoted? How many times have we all spoken of the power of the darkside or quoted Yoda or Obi Wan or Vader's lines, not to mention Han. And many of C3PO's lines were humorous but not in a stupid kind of way. And who wouldn't love to have a lightsaber and who dosn't relate to the scene between Vader and Luke in return of the jedi where Vader dies. The original trilogy were not just movies, they're parts of us, they effected our culture and our minds just like a good book.

And really, who would read a book unless it's good? Not so with movies though. I have been deep into the classics lately and in the past few years I havn't read a book that didn't enrich my life and bring joy to my heart. But I've seen a lot of movies that didn't. How many times have any of you quoted lines from ep 1 or 2? It just dosn't happen. the entire prequel so far has had one cool and dramatic scene, the saber duel with Darth Maul and Qui Gon but even that was nowhere near what happened in the originals. There was no Drama or feeling in Qui Gon's death. This was just a movie, not STAR WARS. It was a normal everyday movie.

Years from now when people talk about great movies they're going to mention the oens that touched them, the original trilogy, the matrix, pulp fictiom, saving private ryan, etc etc. These were movies that were made for people to watch and love, not to make money or be part of some damned merchandising machine. These movies really had worth and that's where the PT lacks.

[Helena]

Return of the Jedi isn't my favourite of the original trilogy, but I don't really see how it has less romance and fantasy than the other two. Was there really any romance at all in ANH? My main problems with RotJ are the Ewoks and those stupid musical numbers.

[Radu094]

Palpatine could launch an assult on the trade federation (betraying them) and recapturing all the planets they take, and creating a debt and trust in the people of many planets thus building his footing for his rise to power...

You know, this the ONE reason why the PT suck.

No matter how you think about it, the big-picture plot is not holding up:

You have this ambitious senator slash cancelor setting up an invasion army that he uses as a motive for convincing the senate to build up another army to fight the first army that he build to get a second army. It's terribly twisted, complex,pointless and stupid.
You don't need to think about it, it's intuitivelly stupid. It makes the whole movie smell fishy.. it's not holding water.
<edit: forgot to make the point clear:I'm talking about Ep.II >

If you think about it... the emperor pretty much builds up 2 armies on his own expense.. then convices the senate to allow one army (the clones) to fight the second (attacking) army, both of whom are at his command. WTF is that?

Is he a coq-fight fan, he enjoys wathing people fight pointlessly for the fun of it, or does he simply wanna take over the galaxy? 'Cause if it's the latter, he could pretty much have used the clone+droid armies to wipe out the senate altogether. I don't get it. WhatTF gives ?

This post has been edited by Radu094: 04 June 2004 - 05:53 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

Re: Return of the Jedi and its lack of romance and fantasy.

Star Wars lacked romance, this is true. Return of the Jedi lacked both.

Let's look at the romance of the original trilogy. There was not much at work in Star Wars - a bit of flirting and innuendo. I won't try to pretend there was anything more. The Empire Strikes Back seemed to start the way with a bit of inneundo but now we could see that Han had some deeper feelings for Leia.

The romance element was very strong in The Empire Strikes Back's story - so much that it was integral to the plot. Han could have just left Hoth and paid off Jabba the Hutt. He didn't have to take Leia with him but he did.

He did a lot for Leia and as she came to understand how much he had done for her, she came to love him in return. And Han suffered heavily for Leia - with everything that took place at Bespin.

And when they were torn apart - maybe never to see each other again - that was pretty powerful, moving stuff.

But then you watch Return of the Jedi and what happens? The two characters seem to have almost no chemistry and they act more like a couple of kids from Dawson's Creek. The so-called 'romance' of Return of the Jedi feels like a damn soap opera - especially when Han has his jealous hissy fit....

"Could you tell Luke? Is that who you could tell?"

And then Lucas even had the nerve to rip-off the "I love you."/"I know." exchange from The Empire Strikes Back. Except where in The Empire Strikes Back, this exchange was used at the really gut-wrenchingly powerful scene when Han and Leia were seperated, in Return of the Jedi, it's used when there's a couple of biker scouts standing behind them. Wow - that's epic stuff, alright.


Okay, now let's look at the fantasy.

Star Wars brought us the exotic locale of Tatooine, filmed far away in Tunisia (which is in northern Africa for anyone who doesn't know much about geography outside of the United States). It also brought us the wonderful Mos Eisley cantina and the vast interior of the Death Star.

The Empire Strikes Back brought us a remote ice-world that was incredible to behold, an enormous asteroid field and a city in the clouds.

We get to Return of the Jedi however and we're back on Tatooine again - except this time, it's filmed in California so it looks a LOT less exotic. We see all the same aliens from Star Wars re-hashed, alongside some muppets that sing stupid songs.

Then when Obi Wan appears to Luke on Dagobah, the floating spirit is replaced by one that walks and sits down on a log and chats to Luke for hours and hours. That really destroyed the mystical element a bit.

And Endor? It looks a lot like a normal forest to me. Ewoks - look like teddy bears. Treehouses - I've seen plenty of those. Yeah, that's fantasy alright.

Come on, Mike - Return of the Jedi has more romance and fantasy than The Empire Strikes Back? I can't believe you actually wrote that.

What if Civilian had read that? He would have grilled you alive! And he may still... as I would be powerless to stop him.

Also, to other Return of the Jedi defenders, I agree that it is a lot better than the prequels. But being a lot better doesn't make it good.

Return of the Jedi has two worthwhile things - the showdown between Luke and Darth Vader and the choreography, scale and special effects of the space battle. But the rest of the movie was a bore - a large budget Hollywood commercialised piece of trash. Even the space battle, while it looked terrific, had about as much heart as a slow drying coat of paint.

Do not kid yourselves, people. Return of the Jedi is not much of a movie.

Hate it already. It's an integral stage that you must go through. If you do not hate Return of the Jedi, then you are not yet fully an adult.

Adults do not watch movies in which teddy bears go "Yub yub!"

If you still think it's a good movie, then I would strongly suggest that you visit this website and educate yourself -

50 Reasons Why Jedi Sucks

You might learn something. Perhaps this may help you to take that very important step in your personal development.

"You know, I did think about the movie. I DO think Return of the Jedi sucks."

"That's good. You've taken your first step into a larger world."

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 04 June 2004 - 07:04 AM

[Helena]

Thank you for that supremely patronising response, JYAMG! But that list is certainly food for thought (and very funny). I haven't seen RotJ for several years (it was actually the first Star Wars movie I saw) so I'll have to look out for the things mentioned in the list next time I get to see it.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

Come on, Mike - Return of the Jedi has more romance and fantasy than The Empire Strikes Back? I can't believe you actually wrote that.

I didn't say that, jyamg

I said that ROTJ has more "fantasy" elements than ESB.

Empire Strikes Back has more romance. ROTJ is an extension and resolution of that romance.

[Just your average movie goer]

Sorry - you're right, Mike. I should have checked your post again.

Thank you for that supremely patronising response, JYAMG!

Thank you, thank you.

But that list is certainly food for thought (and very funny).

It is indeed.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

"We get to Return of the Jedi however and we're back on Tatooine again - except this time, it's filmed in California so it looks a LOT less exotic. We see all the same aliens from Star Wars re-hashed, alongside some muppets that sing stupid songs."

The whole point of bringing Luke back to Tatooine was that Luke had come home a as a Jedi. It was a nice touch to the series.

Luke: "I grew up here y'know?"

Han: 'Your gonna die here y'know? Convenient"

{My favorite line in ROTJ!!!!!!!! }


"My main problems with RotJ are the Ewoks and those stupid musical numbers."

Musicals?

Did Dick van Dyke & Julie Andrews star in ROTJ??? {Hope Lucas doesn't get that idea}

I assume you are referring

1. The Max Rebo Band
That was ambient background music for Jaba. Made for the background. It is actually no different than the music you hear in the Cantina Band scene. Actually better in some ways.
Just because this band has a singer doesn';t make the scene a "musical". Add to the fact that the scenes were brief.

I think you are more annoyed at the weird looking Sy Snootles more than anything. Aren't you?

2. The ended Ewok song.
It was a parade really. There actually is a nice feature where the Ewok singing develops into classical operatic singing after Luke sees his father and Ben. A nice touch. really liked that effect. Check it out. You too, jymag


Musicals??? C'mon helena. You speak in hyperbole, my dear.

I think you more infuriated by the

[Just your average movie goer]

Luke: "I grew up here y'know?"

Han: 'Your gonna die here y'know? Convenient"

Luke's line actually was "I used to live here, you know."

It is sad that I know this movie line for line - I could recite the whole thing from go to wo. I can even tell you without a single doubt that when Luke burns Darth Vader's body on the funeral pyre, the beautiful sweeping music that is playing is constantly being interrupted by Ewoks yabbering in the background. Unbelievable.

[Mike Mac from NYU]

If you still think it's a good movie, then I would strongly suggest that you visit this website and educate yourself -

50 Reasons Why Jedi Sucks

For the record, I have seen the reasons

There are only two legitimate ones

1. The Tarzan yell

2. The Sarlac Pitt burp

That's it.

The other reasons can be summed up as:

1. Excessive nitpicking
2. The views of those that felt that ROTJ didn;t fit theirpersonal vision of what the final chapter of Star Wars was supposed to be.
3. An osmosis effect caused by the nitpicking and failures of the Present Trilogy.
4. People who have raised Empire Strikes Back the bible on making Star Wars films
and believe that anything that doesn;t contain those elements of that movie, don;t constitute a Star Wars film.
5. Those that failed to get the general overall picture of what Star Wars is about.


Just a heads up for you Helena.

And yes, jymag & civ. I stand by what I mentioned above.

[Helena]

Musicals?

Did Dick van Dyke & Julie Andrews star in ROTJ??? {Hope Lucas doesn't get that idea}

I actually said 'musical numbers', not 'musicals'. Like I said, it's a long time since I last saw the movie, but I could swear there was at least one scene where characters were singing and dancing around. Maybe it's just in the Special Edition? (I've never seen the originals. Pity me...)

[Just your average movie goer]

1. Excessive nitpicking

I love it whenever I see you guys falling back on that catchphrase of yours. It's like Linus and his security blanket in the Peanuts comic strip.

If something is actually in a movie, be it a sloppy editing job, a shitty plot device, a dicky action sequence *, etc and someone points it out, it is a valid point.

In movies that you guys hate, you happily agree with such points.

But whenever such a point is raised about a movie you like, you call it nitpicking.

Now Mike, how can you use such a double standard? Are you not an objective film critic?

If you told me that you loved Return of the Jedi, despite all its flaws, then I would leave you to enjoy your beloved movie in peace. But to claim it as being a great masterpiece is something else entirely.

You raised some valid criticisms about Star Wars before (just some, though). But I completely agreed with them. Because they were actual things in the movie and no-one could dispute that.

Yet when you are confronted with valid criticisms about Return of the Jedi, you go running to your "nitpicking" rhetoric.

It's sad - you guys do it so often. You did it with Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and I think Heccubus did it for some other movie. But it's also funny to see you guys retreating to the safety of your catchphrase. Good times.


* Here's a great example of a dicky action sequence. In Return of the Jedi, inside the bunker, a guy points his gun at Han and tells him to freeze. The guy has his gun pointed right at Han yet stands there doing nothing for five seconds while Han picks up a box and throws it at him. If the scene had any credibility, Han would have been shot if he even moved towards the box.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 04 June 2004 - 11:01 AM

[Mike Mac from NYU]

I actually said 'musical numbers', not 'musicals'. Like I said, it's a long time since I last saw the movie, but I could swear there was at least one scene where characters were singing and dancing around. Maybe it's just in the Special Edition? (I've never seen the originals. Pity me...)"

Only the Ewoks and Droids, were dancing in that final scene. All the humans were just congratulating and hugging each other.

[Just your average movie goer]

All the humans were just congratulating and hugging each other.

And then they all posed together for a big family photo just before the credits rolled. I wonder who had the camera...