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A question for Mr. Yahtzee

#16 User is offline   Patch Icon

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 12:34 AM

QUOTE (Thaluikhain @ Mar 13 2009, 12:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Jay-zus...that almost makes the live action 5DAS thing with "Tribly" in it look half-decent.

Are you sure?
Check again.
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#17 User is offline   AdamM Icon

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 07:24 PM

Settlers is lots of fun, but really badly designed. It's the worst example of an RTS being glorified resource chains.
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#18 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 08:35 PM

Good RTS games: Starcraft & BroodWar, C&C:Red alert, Warcraft 3, Dwarf Fortress.
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#19 User is offline   Kamikaz Kid Icon

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Posted 14 March 2009 - 01:14 AM

QUOTE (Slade @ Mar 13 2009, 07:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Good RTS games: Starcraft & BroodWar, C&C:Red alert, Warcraft 3, Dwarf Fortress.

I disagree on starcraft, blizzard screwed terrans in the game, they were supposed to be the middle of the road faction, yet marines have the lowest dps of all starting units, only zerglings are lower, but with the 2 for 1 special they end up still doing more damage & having more life, because 2 zerglings > 1 marine in both dps & hp. I liked starcraft, but the multiplayer was anticlimactic at best. Your tactical options are: zergling rush, carrier rush, battle cruiser rush, and guardian rush.

Did anyone play the Battle for middle earth 2 game? It is gorgeous, even if it did recycle the mythic engine. Plus it has that Total War feel where calvary crush infantry, and flanking works well. Although charging pike men with calvary can turn a calvary battalion into horsey shis-kabobs.

This post has been edited by Kamikaz Kid: 14 March 2009 - 01:20 AM

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#20 User is offline   Maggot4Life Icon

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 12:27 AM

QUOTE (Kamikaz Kid @ Mar 14 2009, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I disagree on starcraft, blizzard screwed terrans in the game, they were supposed to be the middle of the road faction, yet marines have the lowest dps of all starting units, only zerglings are lower, but with the 2 for 1 special they end up still doing more damage & having more life, because 2 zerglings > 1 marine in both dps & hp. I liked starcraft, but the multiplayer was anticlimactic at best. Your tactical options are: zergling rush, carrier rush, battle cruiser rush, and guardian rush.

Did anyone play the Battle for middle earth 2 game? It is gorgeous, even if it did recycle the mythic engine. Plus it has that Total War feel where calvary crush infantry, and flanking works well. Although charging pike men with calvary can turn a calvary battalion into horsey shis-kabobs.

Just because of that you don't like starcraft? Hell, you gotta learn to like games that are shit
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#21 User is offline   Patch Icon

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 03:07 AM

I personally enjoyed Warlords Battlecry 3. But that game was horrible. It was just so easy. Let your resources build up, get your best units. Win.

I imagine playing against players would be better, but no strategy.


How good is Battle for Middle Earth 2? I bought Overlord instead.


And AdamM, when you say badly designed do you only mean the resource chains or were there other faults?
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#22 User is offline   AdamM Icon

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Posted 20 March 2009 - 06:47 AM

Well, the point I'm making is that a traditional RTS boils down to resource chains; you harvest wood to make your buildings, you refine ore to build your spaceships, or whatever. And even your technology trees are resource chains, what with each new technology requiring a certain amount of prerequisites. But most RTSs have enough variation and innovation to disguise this.

However, over the course of four games The Settlers changed absolutely nothing. If you examine it, the game is just endlessly building buildings and moving objects from one to another, with every chain ultimately ending in the construction of an army. For example: Woodcutter's Hut cuts down trees and sends logs to the Sawmill, which saws them into planks, which are used to build a Grain Farm, which sows and harvests grain which is sent to the Grain Mill, which mills it into flour and sends it to the Bakery, which (with water from the Waterworks) bakes it into bread and sends it to the Coal Mine, where the miners eat the bread and mine more coal, which is sent to the Iron Smelting Works, which takes iron ore and coal and smelts it into iron bars, which are sent to the Weapons Smith, who takes more coal and smelts the iron bars into weapons, which are then sent to the Barracks, where soldiers are trained.

And it is like this in EVERY ROUND of The Settlers that you play. There is no variation, there is no strategy. Every building has one purpose. If you destroy an enemy building, then it stops the resource chain and that ENTIRE SETTLEMENT grinds to a halt.

But yes, apart from this fundamental problem, it's a good game!
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#23 User is offline   Kamikaz Kid Icon

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 03:53 AM

QUOTE (Maggot4Life @ Mar 16 2009, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just because of that you don't like starcraft? Hell, you gotta learn to like games that are shit

There is so much wrong with this statement, I can only hope he is kidding.

this post is kind of late coming, but in response to Patch: BFME 2 was good, but there are limitations that make me unhappy, for instance if I build a massive ddom fortress with catapults on the walls, and boiling oil vats this hard work can all be undone by one equally sized enemy catapult. For whatever reason catapults on the ground have a slightly longer range than tower catapults, which defeats any reason for building wall catapults as they can'y destroy enemy artillery, despite being the same size and having a 25-40 foot elevation advantage. So building emplaced artillery costs 500 more and has about 20 feet less range. Still incredibly fun to dump boiling oil on hordes of goblins though. tongue.gif

In response to AdamM:
Try C&C Generals, or BFME 2, both games have interesting factions that get scavenge cash from killing enemies. This feature is one that makes gameplay more strategic than logistic. I too hate RTS games where the MO is make lots of harvesters, make lots of tanks, research lots of technology, and steamroll. It's fun the first time you do it, but it really loses it's charm.
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#24 User is offline   Thaluikhain Icon

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 04:25 AM

Well, even if that's the strategy, a good RTS, or at least a half decent one will put you into inventive scenarios to make the most out of it. Tiberian Sun and the Firestorm Expansion had a bit of effort gone into their levels, giving the expansion a definate sci-fi horror feel (of sorts).
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#25 User is offline   Patch Icon

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Posted 03 April 2009 - 10:37 AM

QUOTE (Kamikaz Kid @ Apr 3 2009, 06:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Still incredibly fun to dump boiling oil on hordes of goblins though. tongue.gif

Why would you dump oil on your own soldiers?

QUOTE
In response to AdamM:
Try C&C Generals, or BFME 2, both games have interesting factions that get scavenge cash from killing enemies. This feature is one that makes gameplay more strategic than logistic. I too hate RTS games where the MO is make lots of harvesters, make lots of tanks, research lots of technology, and steamroll. It's fun the first time you do it, but it really loses it's charm.

Meeeeh. I've found only games that limit your units have a good strategy basis. In most C&C it boils down to swarming your enemy and using your super weapon at the right time. I'm currently playing Warhammer 40k: Soulstorm (cbf to get Dawn of War 2) and I'm finding the limitations force you to use strategy. When you can have only ten or less groups of infantry you're forced to customise them to counter what your enemy has.

Sadly, two places where this falls down.
1) Space Marines, four squads with heavy bolters and a squad with rockets makes it nearly impossible to break through with any less then multiple deepstrikes/jumps or a heavy vehicle assault.
2) Necrons simplify. This infantry kills infantry. This infantry kills vehicles. This vehicle kills infantry. This vehicle kills vehicles.

QUOTE (Thaluikhain @ Apr 3 2009, 07:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, even if that's the strategy, a good RTS, or at least a half decent one will put you into inventive scenarios to make the most out of it. Tiberian Sun and the Firestorm Expansion had a bit of effort gone into their levels, giving the expansion a definate sci-fi horror feel (of sorts).

The thing I found frustrating about Tiberian Sun is that you couldn't swarm the enemies easily. Sure, earlier that was my complaint, but in a game where the enemy has a rediculous defense you wish your units would run over them easier. It came to the point where the enemy didn't have any resources to attack me but all I could do was throw masses of... the walker things with the cannon at their defenses until it finally collapsed, an hour later.
Just the problem was, there was no way to break the enemy. Couldn't rush, couldn't blow them up with planes from behind. Stupid slow mission.

Yes, the cyborgs became more and more nasty as it went along giving it a very intimidating feel.
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#26 User is offline   Thaluikhain Icon

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Posted 04 April 2009 - 03:22 AM

Actually, blowing them up with planes is generally all I ever did...send a mob to destroy each SAM site in turn, then pick of whatever is left at your lesiure...mostly cause it was only the higher levels whenre the enemy would rebuild sam sites. Have to be fairly tedious and patience for that strategy, though.

Artillery could be fun as well.

It does help that (on easy level at least), the enemy didn't use particularly great tactics...until the last Nod mission of the expansion, which was a surprise. At first it was cool that the enemy would hit you with cluster missiles, and disable your stuff wth an EMP before sending its hordes of cyber monsters at you, and it sent bombers in groups and targeted things that could damage them and so on...except it's got control of everything on the map, except for this tiny area you control with your handful of infantry. It stopped being cool for me about then.
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