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Why I like the prequels (part one- TPM)

#1 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 03:11 AM

even after a brief perusal of these boards its pretty obvious that pretty much everyone here seems to be anti-prequel. I, on the other hand, love them, so I thought it might be interesting for you to hear another voice. you'll probably disagree with everything ive got to say, but ill do my best. For this first post, i've started at the obvious place. this is just a primary list of things I love about TPM to get us started.

MAJOR THINGS

1. The direction. This is something that rarely, if ever gets discussed, but its something that really got me (esp. on subsequent showings). Much like his major filmic influenece, Akira Kurasawa, Lucas chose the cross cut as his main device. TPM is an extremelly ambitious film by anyones standards, the multiple story lines could easily have come undone in the hands of a lesser director. Instead, TPM is well structured and tight, particulary in its middle section on Tatooine. Lucas uses the jump cut primarily to build drama and tension, and to keep things fresh in the narrative (a good example being Qui Gons "we havnt much time" line cutting straight to the Sith on Couruscant, giving the audience the feeling that the danger is close behind them). In fact, the ambitiousness of writing so many stories into one film, then having it work, strikes me as something worthy of more recognition than it got.

2. Palpatine. I just love this guy, and his inclusion makes TPM one of my favourites in the series. His rise to power is so well thought out, and so intelligent, that it makes him easily the best on screen bad guy in recent memory. His manipulation of the Queen, and the Jedi, and his ultimate shrouded victory at the end, gives TPM a great bittersweat finish. Lucas topped himself when he came up with the Sidous/Palpatine duality (as well as adding that to the rollcall of numerous important 'twos' and couplings present throughout the saga.

3. Qui Gon. Surely even those who strongly dislike TPM can find something to like in this guy? The contrast between the ignorant, rigid and isolated (check out the Ivory Tower symbolism of the Jedi temple) makes QG my favourite Jedi of the saga. his insight, intellignce and lets not forget, humour (the look he gives Watto after winning the dice roll is priceless) cant be stated enough, and to me its another nod to Lucas' writing. hes also calm, nurturing and protective, everything AOTC's Obi Wan is not which surely begs the question what if he hadnt died? (a question that Lucas surely wanted the audience to ask)

4. the dinner scene. seems like a strange inclusion maybe, but it was my favourite scene right from the first time i watched it. i love Anakins confidance, esp. in light of episode 2, but unlike in AOTC, here Anakin is totally altruistic, instead of self serving. look at the look of pride on Shmi's face when her son says "i can help, i can fix anything!" (another line that takes on a darker tone in light of episode two)

im kind of pressed for time, but ive got a lot more to write about, so ill add more later (sebulba, watto, the senate scene, the neimoidians, the battle droids etc. etc.)
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#2 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 04:36 AM

Keep them coming. It's good so far. I disagree with the first two points although I think I agree with the fourth one. As for the third one, yes. I did like Qui Gon, even though I felt he was an unnecessary character. He's a nice guy - so I think most of us probably liked him too.
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Posted 19 August 2004 - 05:05 AM

Palpatine is a subtle man in TPM

Anyone want to explain to me exactly why he turns into Mr. Burns from the Simpsons by RotJ?

"Yessssssss, unleash your anger, young jedi...and unleash the hounds too."
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Posted 19 August 2004 - 05:13 AM

Seriously, I am most interested in hearing your defense of Watto, since I consider him the most racistly conceived character in the entire series.
I dare anyone to look at the racist cartoons portraying the Jews as subhumans in Nazi Germany's state-controlled media and Watto and not see that they are dopplegangers. I found this character about 100 times more offensive than Jar Jar.
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Posted 19 August 2004 - 07:08 AM

I think Watto was probably most offensive to Italians.

Jar Jar was offensive to Jamaicans. The Trade Federation aliens were offensive to Asian people.. but I think Watto was clearly meant to be Lucas' unwelcome stereotype for an Italian person.

And with The Godfather and The Sopranos... don't you think Italians have enough negative stereotypes already?

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laugh.gif That was fantastic...
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#6 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 07:15 AM

Number 1: this is partly a matter of opinion, but I can't say I found TPM's story to be either interesting, dramatic or well-structured. Not only is the premise entirely stupid in too many ways to count, but any dramatic tension is undercut by flat acting, stupid dialogue and hideous 'comic relief' characters like Jar Jar Binks.

Number 2: yes, Palpatine comes across as a reasonably intelligent character, but only because everyone else acts like morons. His plan would never have worked if the Senate had simply followed sensible rules in the first place - like, say, not allowing private organisations to have their own armies, having some kind of sensible fast-track process to deal with military crises, requiring slightly more than one simple-majority vote to kick the Supreme Chancellor out of office...Seriously, can you imagine any real-life government being run in this way? How on earth has the Republic lasted thousands of years when a trade blockade of some tiny, unimportant little planet sends the entire galaxy into a blind panic?

Oh, and there's still been no good explanation for why the Jedi can't sense that the Supreme Chancellor is actually the Dark Lord of the Sith.

Number 3: Qui-Gon himself is not a bad character; the problem is that according to the OT, Yoda was supposed to train Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan was the one who wanted to train Anakin. Now we find out that he only agreed to train him because it was Qui-Gon's dying wish - even though he considered the boy to be dangerous! The need for Qui-Gon only came about because Lucas insisted on Anakin being a little kid in TPM; the Prequels should have started with Anakin and Obi-Wan closer to the ages they were in AotC.

Number 4: Don't have much to say about this, really. It's probably one of the better scenes of the film, but that's not saying much.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#7 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 08:17 AM

jariten,

Welcome to the Forums! I was just saying the other day how I wished there were more prequel fans here to join in some intelligent discussion/debate. It is as if the heavens opened up and my prayers were answered. smile.gif

While, obviously, I am not a fan of the preuels I agree with things you have said. I feel it is rather unfair for people who boycott the prequels to write such scathing reviews of them. I know a few people who are boycotting the prequel movies, however they are just upset by TPM. They don't go around bad-mouthing the film(s) they haven't seen. They simply ignore it, pretend it didn't even happen. I think that's the only fair course of action for a boycotter.

As for your reasons, I do agree that the Star Wars movies are great for kids (I'd probably like it if I were 10 or younger) however I strongly believe that the prequels don't have that kid-frendly/adult-friendly vibe that both the original trilogy had and other great movies such as "The Princess Bride" share. That certain something that makes them highly enjoyable for children and adults alike. Of course, this is coming from someone who was 6 years old when "Return of the Jedi" was released so it is admittedly difficult for me to judge.

I do agree with your reasoning for Qui-Gon. I think Qui-Gon is a great character. I think Neeson plays him (as he plays all characters) brilliantly and I really think the relationship between him and Obi-Wan was well done. Not to slip too much into bash-mode but I think a lot more of that has to do with Neeson and MacGregor's competence as actors rather than the writing/directing.

I also agree that starting the prequels with Anakin as a little kid was just a poor idea.
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#8 User is offline   Esco Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 08:21 AM

shoot, Helena beat me to my main points. I'd almost be repeating much of what she already said.

1. I found the plotting and editing to be the worst aspects of the movie.
I know Lucas intended this movie for kids, but my cousin (who was 7 at the time of initial release) was so bored out of his mind that my uncle had to take him home.
Thats all I need to say on that.

2. This is one point I can fully agree with you on. I loved the portrayal of Palpatine and his subtle rise to power. Although we still dont know why the Jedi cant sense him, hopefully a valid explanation will be given in EP3. Ian McDiarmid
is a very professional British actor, and a perfect fit. I'm looking forward to a bigger role for him in Ep3.

3. I will not repeat what Helena already said, but I echo her thoughts exactly on this.

4. scene definitely should have been cut. Any other half-witted director wouldl see this scene serves no real purpose, and just slows everything.

This post has been edited by Esco: 19 August 2004 - 08:30 AM

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#9 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 09:42 AM

QUOTE (Chefelf @ Aug 19 2004, 08:17 AM)
Not to slip too much into bash-mode but I think a lot more of that has to do with Neeson and MacGregor's competence as actors rather than the writing/directing.

Maybe some of those Direct tv "Actors" who read letters to Direct TV are available. Joan Cusack, Danny Devito? Robert DeNiro, Cowboy Curtis? (Lawrence Fishburne, not our forum friend. Although I'm sure Curtis would do as good or better than what we've seen.)

It's like fresh air reading the supportive words. Kind of what I've expected prior to seeing a prequel. Thankfully these artistic results are superior.
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#10 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 11:03 AM

1) First of all, I wouldn't exactly call anything other than the effects in this movie "ambitious." Considering that the final, oh, 30 minutes are pretty much stolen from ROTJ and ANH, the podrace has nothing to do with the plot whatsoever, and the comic relief goes even further than ROTJ did with its burp jokes, now using purely physical comedy in the form of Jar-Jar, and "funny" lines that no one over 10 would think are funny. Now, the final 30 minutes do have some redeemable features in them, namely the lightsaber duel (I'm sorry, maybe you could say the music is a redeeming feature in Anakin's accidental blowing-up of the starship, but that would be going too far, that was just pathetic), which though emotionally empty other than shock value left by Qui-Gon's death, does have good choreography. So though some of it may be entertaining, you can't really call it ambitious. The "direction" in these parts from a purely technical standpoint is not bad, you're right, but it's the direction of the movie as a whole, the direction of the actors, of the story, and not just of the action that matters, and I don't think Lucas did a great job when it came to that.

2) Completely agree. I love McDiarmid in ROTJ (yeah he was over-the-top but he's also very cool), and the one thing the prequels do right is make him into a good, fleshed-out character.

3) Almost completely agree. I think Neeson did a great job, and Qui-Gon is a very likeable character who you are kinda sad dies (even though you know he has to pretty much before the film starts). However, the fact, as others have said, that he is an unnecessary character does diminish it a bit. But just as far as character goes, yeah, Neeson was great.

4) I have to tell you, I haven't thought of this scene in like 2 years. It made no impact, good or bad, on me whatsoever. I see your point about Anakin, and thinking about it, yeah that is kinda cool to see. And Qui-Gon grabbing Jar-Jar's tongue wasn't bad either (it was about time someone did it). So I'll take your word for it here that it was a good scene, cause other than those 2 things I don't remember it much at all. It was not offensive, but I didn't think it was great.

This post has been edited by Vwing: 19 August 2004 - 11:04 AM

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#11 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 11:11 AM

QUOTE
I do agree with your reasoning for Qui-Gon. I think Qui-Gon is a great character. I think Neeson plays him (as he plays all characters) brilliantly and I really think the relationship between him and Obi-Wan was well done.


I'm going to have to disagree with Chef here. I did not like Qui-Gon's character. I felt he robbed Ob1 the chance to develop a relationship with Anakin early on in the PT. If Ob1 discovered Anakin the two could have started to share more experience rather than work through Qui Gon.

I believe if Qui Gon was nerfed and Anakin was 18 years of age to start, then the PT's would have been alot better.

Qui Gon's name was not mentioned once in the AOTC, if I remember correctly. I'm not sure if he will make a ghostly apperance in the third episode- but either way I can't see how he can contribute anymore to the story.

His only importance, imo, played out when Maul killed him. The audience needed to see Maul kill at least one Jedi so that OB1's acheivement in beating him would seem more grandios.
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#12 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 11:14 AM

Actually Qui-Gon was mentioned by Dooku in AOTC when he was talking to Obi-Wan after he was captured. And I think most people agree with you Jordan that Qui-Gon was unnecessary. We're just talking about the way Neeson played him and if you liked him as a character, not necessarily if you liked his place in the story.
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Posted 19 August 2004 - 11:20 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ Aug 19 2004, 03:11 AM)
even after a brief perusal of these boards its pretty obvious that pretty much everyone here seems to be anti-prequel. I, on the other hand, love them, so I thought it might be interesting for you to hear another voice. you'll probably disagree with everything ive got to say, but ill do my best. For this first post, i've started at the obvious place. this is just a primary list of things I love about TPM to get us started.

MAJOR THINGS

1. The direction. This is something that rarely, if ever gets discussed, but its something that really got me (esp. on subsequent showings). Much like his major filmic influenece, Akira Kurasawa, Lucas chose the cross cut as his main device. TPM is an extremelly ambitious film by anyones standards, the multiple story lines could easily have come undone in the hands of a lesser director. Instead, TPM is well structured and tight, particulary in its middle section on Tatooine. Lucas uses the jump cut primarily to build drama and tension, and to keep things fresh in the narrative (a good example being Qui Gons "we havnt much time" line cutting straight to the Sith on Couruscant, giving the audience the feeling that the danger is close behind them). In fact, the ambitiousness of writing so many stories into one film, then having it work, strikes me as something worthy of more recognition than it got.

2. Palpatine. I just love this guy, and his inclusion makes TPM one of my favourites in the series. His rise to power is so well thought out, and so intelligent, that it makes him easily the best on screen bad guy in recent memory. His manipulation of the Queen, and the Jedi, and his ultimate shrouded victory at the end, gives TPM a great bittersweat finish. Lucas topped himself when he came up with the Sidous/Palpatine duality (as well as adding that to the rollcall of numerous important 'twos' and couplings present throughout the saga.

3. Qui Gon. Surely even those who strongly dislike TPM can find something to like in this guy? The contrast between the ignorant, rigid and isolated (check out the Ivory Tower symbolism of the Jedi temple) makes QG my favourite Jedi of the saga. his insight, intellignce and lets not forget, humour (the look he gives Watto after winning the dice roll is priceless) cant be stated enough, and to me its another nod to Lucas' writing. hes also calm, nurturing and protective, everything AOTC's Obi Wan is not which surely begs the question what if he hadnt died? (a question that Lucas surely wanted the audience to ask)

4. the dinner scene. seems like a strange inclusion maybe, but it was my favourite scene right from the first time i watched it. i love Anakins confidance, esp. in light of episode 2, but unlike in AOTC, here Anakin is totally altruistic, instead of self serving. look at the look of pride on Shmi's face when her son says "i can help, i can fix anything!" (another line that takes on a darker tone in light of episode two)

im kind of pressed for time, but ive got a lot more to write about, so ill add more later (sebulba, watto, the senate scene, the neimoidians, the battle droids etc. etc.)

1. The pacing does nothing but lag on a boring plot.
2. I don't really remember Palpatine much in TPM, I thought he was great in AOTC though.
3. True, Qui Gon is one of my favorite characters. The neame is just really stupid. You don't realize it for a while, but it hits you. Maybe it sound worse than Yoda and Obi-Wan because people are so used to those names.
4.. Anything you say about Annakin is negated by one word: Wheeeee!
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#14 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 12:14 PM

QUOTE (Jordan @ Aug 19 2004, 12:11 PM)
I'm going to have to disagree with Chef here. I did not like Qui-Gon's character. I felt he robbed Ob1 the chance to develop a relationship with Anakin early on in the PT. If Ob1 discovered Anakin the two could have started to share more experience rather than work through Qui Gon.

That is a great point. That reminds me of something I meant to touch on in my post. While I think Qui-Gon is a great character and that Neeson played him well I don't really think he was necessary. You are absolutely right that they should have worked more to develop the early relationship between Obi Wan and Anakin rather than the lame: "Pleased to meet you." Handshake.

Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan probably should have been merged into one character. It does seem like the only real point of Qui-Gon was to show Darth Maul's power when he killed the Jedi. However, all that is quickly negated when Obi-Wan leaps out of the pit and slices the dumbfounded Maul in half with one stroke.

TPM should have begun in the same way except Qui-Gon would have been Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan would have been Anakin. That or they could have met within the first fifteen minutes of the movie a la Han-Luke in Episode 4.
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#15 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 19 August 2004 - 12:39 PM

Sorry about that, I was mistaken tongue.gif I read into your statement the wrong way
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