[Spoon Poetic]

What part of Jewish culture prevented them from assimilating into societies for two millennia during the Disapora? I am not arguing that antisemitism didnt occur and pogroms happened from Russia to Argentina. However, by the time of Israel's creation, that had stopped, and I can easily imagine that more Jews went to Israel for financial benefit and free land then to flee the no longer existant Nazis.

Have to disagree here - even if Jews weren't being physically tortured and killed after WWII, Antisemitism was HUGE still. Even in the states, who liberated the camps, it was common - nay, expected - for most jobs, apartments, even retirement homes to not accept Jews. Which is a big reason why there were usually Jewish communities. Many wanted to go back to Israel to escape the rampant Antisemitism that still existed. It was to be a safe-haven. Instead of having tiny spread out ghettos all over the world, they could build up their own nation together. It wasn't about financial gain. It was about self-respect, self-preservation, culture.

And it's ridiculous to think that the Jews could have assimilated at any point. Because of the Antisemitism. They were not allowed to assimilate! Any research at ALL into this topic should have brought you to this conclusion.

And Jm, you also don't seem to understand that this IS a religious battle. Plus the land thing. It's both. These peoples have hated each other for generations, before WWII and the creation of the Israeli state. Palestine took the land from Israel way back when, and this isn't just a Bible story, it's a historical fact. (So if we were living a couple thousand years ago, would you be on Israel's side?) Anyway, the land thing is big, but they'd come up with something else to fight about even if the land hadn't been taken. It's one of those deeply-seeded hates that even small things exacerbate to huge proportions, one of those hates that has been bred into both sides for generations. It makes this war an even dirtier one.

And personally, I don't condone what either side is doing to "fix" it.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 30 January 2009 - 01:57 PM

[civilian_number_two]

Yes, JM, you tragically underestimate the global effect of antisemitism. Jews in North America HAVE "assimilated," but there is still antisemitism of a softer sort, not of the "don't want their kind in our school/neighbourhood/company" sort that existed only a couple of generations ago. What antisemitism was and IS in Europe is harder to shrug off. Have you even red the so-called happy ending of THE MERCHANT OF VENICE? As for the Middle East, it's not just a reaction to current events. Religious and nationalistic violence is the natural response to the untenable position of displacing one people to give land to another government, especially one that will dangerously overreact to terrorism. Israel in that regard is no more irrational than the US, which declared war on the entire Arab world (minus Saudi) and insisted that any nation that didn't offer immediate and unconditional support was also an enemy.

I think the formation of Israel was a dick move, since it was just about taking land from people and setting up a conflict where one was not necessary. I think Israel should have been created in Germany or in Japan after the unconditional surrenders of those countries. Especially Japan: no natural enemies, great unlikelihood of a century or two (I am optimistic that the present conflict will reach a peaceful conclusion in about 150 years, when oil reserves are gone), ... I think that would have been a better idea. But let's face it; Divide and Conquer has been the English way since the beginning. By the end of this, neither Israel nor Palestine will have anything to show for it. Can you imagine how strong Israel would have been by now had they set up in Japan? Oy vey, kirei desu!

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 30 January 2009 - 06:03 PM

[J m HofMarN]

It wasn't about financial gain. It was about self-respect, self-preservation, culture.

Ok so Jews traveled to Israel for more than just financial gain. Indeed in the case of Arab Jews, some of them were expelled to Israel after living for some time peacefully in Arab countries.

These peoples have hated each other for generations, before WWII and the creation of the Israeli state.

Sure, but the modern conflict was birthed by imperialism and the Israeli's siding with the British. I don't see any historical justification for the creation of Israel, and never will no matter what happened between such and such and so and so a hundred and ten years ago.

So if we were living a couple thousand years ago, would you be on Israel's side?)

Most likely, yeah. But assuming that the Palestinians were rich, white and had a massive lobby in Washington the US government would be on a different side too.

Civ-

Have you even red the so-called happy ending of THE MERCHANT OF VENICE?

I've paged through the play, found it to be antisemitic nonsense, and put it down, but I do recall the ending. I would also point even to the rather informed Dickens' use of the stereotpyical Jew Fagan as another example. So, yeah it did and still does exist. I suppose my problem with it is not so much that Jews left their native countries to do their thing in Israel, as the very idea that this sort of attitude, even after the defeat of the forces representative of organized antisemitism, was justification for the very founding of Israel.

By the end of this, neither Israel nor Palestine will have anything to show for it.

Well, one of them will eventually have the whole of the former trans-Jordan and I'm hoping it'll be the Palestinians. Of course, it'll be a bombed out wasteland by then, but the proletariat are great at building shit, and if the Palestinian workers have to rebuild a country they'll do it just as stolidly as they rebuild the tunnels Israel's destroyed.

[Spoon Poetic]

Oh I don't agree with the creation of Israel, either. I wasn't trying to justify it. I was just arguing against what sounded like a generalization against all the Israeli people.

The Jews didn't actually have anything to do with the creation of Israel, other than to exist and be hated and killed/tortured. There were actually many Jews that were against the creation of Israel, and it caused a rift in many Jewish communities.

I just feel like some of what you say against all the people of Israel is unfair - it's like saying, since you and I live in the U.S., and the U.S. government does some pretty shitty things sometimes, that means that you and I are horrible, too - since we live here. Or something. I dunno.

And also I will put forth again that while this modern conflict is new and different and bigger, the peoples hate each other anyway, and would be fighting even if not for the "imperialism" and what-not. As long as they were in close enough proximity to be fighting, they would fight.

And I think both sides are doing pretty horrible things.

Anyway - can someone find Obama's proposed plan for all of this? I saw it on some news show but I can't find it anywhere online, and I'm starting to think the news show pulled it out of their ass. But it was very Palestinian-friendly according to this show - called for Israel to give up the contested land, among other things that's pretty much the opposite of the Bush administration.

[J m HofMarN]

I just feel like some of what you say against all the people of Israel is unfair - it's like saying, since you and I live in the U.S., and the U.S. government does some pretty shitty things sometimes, that means that you and I are horrible, too - since we live here. Or something. I dunno.

Holding citizens of a democracy responsible for the crimes committed by their elected government is perfectly sensible to me, and I recognize that I too have blood on my hands as a contributing part of the American imperialist state. However, considering that the people of Israel had to actively move onto stolen land and are required to participate militarily in genocide, I would say that they are more culpable than the citizens of most other democracies.

And also I will put forth again that while this modern conflict is new and different and bigger, the peoples hate each other anyway, and would be fighting even if not for the "imperialism" and what-not. As long as they were in close enough proximity to be fighting, they would fight.

That's an oversimplification in an attempt to cut down the gravity of the issue. Well, OK, if it wasnt this it would be something else, sure. But it IS this, and we have to make our judgements and take our sides based upon existing conditions.

Anyway - can someone find Obama's proposed plan for all of this?

His plan is to keep up unconditional funding and support of the Zionists but to occasionally make lip service to the Palestinians if the Zionists happen to drop white phosphorus on a school or something. He's said he wants the borders to Gaza opened, and that's at least something, but I'm still going to be pushing for a full recognition of Palestine's right to self defense and military aid for Hamas and Hizbullah.

[J m HofMarN]

Bit of gloating here, I presented my thesis that the Western liberal idea of peace in the mid east is a villainous bit of doublespeak at a discussion on Occupation 101, and I got a round of applause. I'm going to be trying to further explain my theory and views on the conflict in a paper I'll probably send to The Militant or another Trotskyite rag. CPUSA is not publishing any of my work, and they seem too moderate for me.

Note to everyone: Go see Occupation 101!

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 06 March 2009 - 04:05 AM

[Deucaon]

There's several points I'd like to make. Firstly, Israel isn't a Jewish state. (If it was, it'd be called Judea and it wouldn't be secular.) Secondly, I'm not in favour of destroying a secular state in order to create yet another Muslim state. (Like the USA did in regards to Iraq.) Thirdly, other local Arabs think that Palestinians are scum and rightfully so. Fourthly, there's no actual difference between Palestinian Arabs and Egyptian/Syrian/Lebanese/Jordanian Arabs so this is purely a territorial argument since Palestinians already have more than five states. Fifthly, since it's a territorial argument the territory belongs to whomever can hold it militarily. Sixthly, this isn't about what's right but rather who's got more brains and balls than the other side. (Since Israelis are hell-bent on avoiding casualties and since they only know how to fight against other state armies, they're not going to hold that territory for much longer. Morally speaking, if Israeli really were evil incarnate, that is to say smart, then they'd be dropping mustard gas on the more heavily populated areas in Gaza rather than blockading them like a bunch of pussies who obviously don't realise that the Gaza Strip shares a border with Egypt.) Seventhly, Jordan should annex the West Bank and Egypt should annex the Gaza Strip. (Unfortunately, both Egyptians and Jordanians know that Palestinians are scum whose only purpose is to cause trouble so they probably won't. Fucking pussies. And Israelis think that'd be better off fighting gangbangers instead of state armies even though they're trained for the latter and not the former. Fucking morons.)

[J m HofMarN]

point 1: Israel is run by insane Jewish people who think God told them they can steal land and piss all over the Palestinians. They're a Jewish state in the sense that, if they weren't all Jewish, they'd have to quickly make up another justification other than god saying they could and the holocaust.

point 2: Wait wait... Israel isnt Jewish and pre-invasion of Iraq wasnt Muslim? Ok yeah, they didnt define their government by Shariah law, but it was still as Muslim state.

point 3: No they don't. I personally have met Palestinians in Egypt and near the border. They're good people.

point 4: Palestinian Arabs in the occupied territories and refugee camps live in craters and piles of rubble, other Arabs do not. Thats a large difference.

point 5: No.

point 6: Israel is doing quite well with a slow paced genocide. Palestinians are having to learn Hebrew to communicate with occupation troopers and get jobsi n Israel since their economy has been blown up. Israeli colleges are deterring Palestinians from leadership roles in any field. And then theres the dividing of the West Bank and the massive apartheid system, etc etc. As for the Egyptian border, they are doing their damnedest to seal it off because Egypt's government fears Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood ending their 50 year long dictatorship.

[Deucaon]

J m HofMarN, on 19 January 2009 - 01:48 PM, said:

The native Americans are not being actively slaughtered and blockaded by the American government, they very clearly have surrendered. Since hostilities have ceased I can't say much for their cause. The Palestinian war is ongoing and I hope will result in a victory for the resistance.

If they're bombing your house then they haven't surrendered, have they?

J m HofMarN, on 29 March 2010 - 05:45 AM, said:

point 1: Israel is run by insane Jewish people who think God told them they can steal land and piss all over the Palestinians. They're a Jewish state in the sense that, if they weren't all Jewish, they'd have to quickly make up another justification other than god saying they could and the holocaust.

Israel is run by politicians, period. Those politicians are populists. The people, that is to say Israeli citizens, are paranoid as fuck because some stupid Arabs have been lobbying rockets at their kid's schools. Maybe some middleclass douchebags have been writing books about how it's the will of Allah, I mean God, for Jews to have that land but nobody takes them seriously. Mainly because the vast majority of Israelis only care about getting by from day to day. Since their army is full of conscripts, the soldiers are the same. And in the end the land belongs to whomever can and will fight for it. Palestinians have shown that they're too stupid to fight a war. They deserve to be eliminated as a people. That's just natural law. Problem is that Israelis are also too stupid to fight a war and they're deeply afraid of taking casualties. In other words you have two burly fags slapping each other into submission. That's the Israel/Palestinian situation.

J m HofMarN, on 29 March 2010 - 05:45 AM, said:

point 2: Wait wait... Israel isnt Jewish and pre-invasion of Iraq wasnt Muslim? Ok yeah, they didnt define their government by Shariah law, but it was still as Muslim state.

State of Israel. Do you know the other countries in history which had the same prefix? All of them were strictly secular. They worship bureaucracy, not religion. As far as Iraq is concerned, the government was a secular ethnic-centric nationalist state. "Ba'athism" was founded by an Orthodox Christian. Both Sunnis and Shiites served in the government. No religion was being actively persecuted and no religion was said to be the one true religion. Just because it was full of Muslims, it doesn't mean that the government took Islam seriously. Of course members of the government had no problems exploiting Islam by shouting "Allah this" and "Allah that" in order to strengthen their hold on power. But that's what most politicians do, they "desecrate" "sacred" things for political capital. They don't actually believe in that shit.

J m HofMarN, on 29 March 2010 - 05:45 AM, said:

point 3: No they don't. I personally have met Palestinians in Egypt and near the border. They're good people.

You met a handful of people and have made a judgement on an entire people because of that encounter? Are you really this stupid? I'm beginning to understand why America is in the state it's in. Look, you Yanks have territorial differences and well-founded stereotypes, right? Well that's the same between the various Arab territories. Palestinians are the xenophobic, lazy, fanatical criminals of the Arab world.

J m HofMarN, on 29 March 2010 - 05:45 AM, said:

point 4: Palestinian Arabs in the occupied territories and refugee camps live in craters and piles of rubble, other Arabs do not. Thats a large difference.

You've obviously never seen pictures from Iraq or Lebanon.

J m HofMarN, on 29 March 2010 - 05:45 AM, said:

point 5: No.

You sure?

J m HofMarN, on 29 March 2010 - 05:45 AM, said:

point 6: Israel is doing quite well with a slow paced genocide. Palestinians are having to learn Hebrew to communicate with occupation troopers and get jobsi n Israel since their economy has been blown up. Israeli colleges are deterring Palestinians from leadership roles in any field. And then theres the dividing of the West Bank and the massive apartheid system, etc etc.

Genocide? Genocide would indicate that the total Palestinian population has been reduced. Since there's been a dramatic increase in the Palestinian population, you're just spouting rhetoric. I find it funny. "Crusaders," and "Zionists," and "Apartheid," and "Genocide." I feel like I'm arguing with a pre-recording. But to answer your allegations, yes, Israelis are fearful of Palestinians, and rightfully so. But that doesn't deduct from the fact that there's less than a hundred permanent Jewish residents in the West Bank and there's none in the Gaza Strip. Apart from that, there's over a million permanent Muslim residents in Israel. And Israel has done it's part to reduce it's territory over the past decade. Not that that's a good thing because it just shows how stupid and self-destructive the Israelis have gotten. It's probably because most of the Israeli leadership is from the middleclass nowadays. They should elect peasants into all the electoral seats. Generally, the peasantry is ruthless and pragmatic. In stark contrast to the pitiful middleclass.

J m HofMarN, on 29 March 2010 - 05:45 AM, said:

As for the Egyptian border, they are doing their damnedest to seal it off because Egypt's government fears Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood ending their 50 year long dictatorship.

Exactly. They're afraid of the problems which Palestinians will cause when they start crossing the border. It's understandable. Palestinians make problems wherever they go.

[J m HofMarN]

Quote

Palestinians have shown that they're too stupid to fight a war. They deserve to be eliminated as a people.

No and no. The Palestinians have indeed been successful in getting the Israelis to leave Gaza, and even if they werent, thats no excuse for the genocide you propound.

Quote

You met a handful of people and have made a judgement on an entire people because of that encounter? Are you really this stupid? I'm beginning to understand why America is in the state it's in. Look, you Yanks have territorial differences and well-founded stereotypes, right? Well that's the same between the various Arab territories. Palestinians are the xenophobic, lazy, fanatical criminals of the Arab world.

Youve met no people and are perfectly happy to say they all deserve a ticket to concentration camps, so between the two views I have to say mine is the more logical. Also, fanatics generally aren't lazy and certainly aren't often among the ranks of common criminals. Criminals also aren't usually known for their laziness.

Quote

You've obviously never seen pictures from Iraq or Lebanon.

I don't understand this statement. The Iraqis and Lebanese are under occupation, thus likening them to the Palestinians, but they're also able to bring in construction materials and are rapidly rebuilding, so the analogy is two different flavors of fail.

Genocide does not only refer to active murder (which the Israelis have and are doing) but can mean many things that lead to the destruction of a people.

Quote

But that doesn't deduct from the fact that there's less than a hundred permanent Jewish residents in the West Bank

No.

Quote

And Israel has done it's part to reduce it's territory over the past decade.

The zionist enemy moved a few very isolated settlements out of Gaza because Hamas had them under siege, and they didnt want to risk bombing their own settlers when they carpet bombed Gaza. Those settlers were then moved to the West bank along with MORE settlers, thus INCREASING the amount of land being robbed from its rightful owners.

Quote

Palestinians make problems wherever they go.

So does your mom, but I'll be polite and not advocate putting her in a concentration camp.

[Deucaon]

J m HofMarN, on 31 March 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

No and no. The Palestinians have indeed been successful in getting the Israelis to leave Gaza, and even if they werent, thats no excuse for the genocide you propound.

Except that they didn't. What happened was that Israelis pulled their "settlers" out unilaterally. There wasn't even a battle or a war on. They just did it and they haven't returned since. Which just shows you that they're too stupid to exist.

J m HofMarN, on 31 March 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

Youve met no people and are perfectly happy to say they all deserve a ticket to concentration camps, so between the two views I have to say mine is the more logical.

Who said anything about concentration camps? Anyway, the world isn't about you. I've met my fair share of Arabs of all stripes but I don't factor my personal encounters into this. Because it has no place in this debate, and I'm not a closet narcissist.

J m HofMarN, on 31 March 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

Also, fanatics generally aren't lazy and certainly aren't often among the ranks of common criminals.

I'd like to call them ad hoc nationalists. You see when there's no war on they exploit everybody they can but when there's a war on they turn their psychotic impulses onto foreigners. In America they probably come in the form of mercenaries.

J m HofMarN, on 31 March 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

Criminals also aren't usually known for their laziness.

Relative laziness. They aren't willing to work for a living.

J m HofMarN, on 31 March 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

I don't understand this statement. The Iraqis and Lebanese are under occupation, thus likening them to the Palestinians, but they're also able to bring in construction materials and are rapidly rebuilding, so the analogy is two different flavors of fail.

You wrote as if Israel/Palestine was unique. I was simply correctly your idiocy. I would also like to point out that Iraq is much worse off than Palestine.

J m HofMarN, on 31 March 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

Genocide does not only refer to active murder (which the Israelis have and are doing) but can mean many things that lead to the destruction of a people.

Even though the Palestinian population has rapidly increased everywhere since the creation of Israel? Get real. Israelis have the ability to wipe out the Palestinians, they just don't have the balls for it.

J m HofMarN, on 31 March 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

No.

Well I'm glad we agree.

J m HofMarN, on 31 March 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

The zionist enemy moved a few very isolated settlements out of Gaza because Hamas had them under siege, and they didnt want to risk bombing their own settlers when they carpet bombed Gaza. Those settlers were then moved to the West bank along with MORE settlers, thus INCREASING the amount of land being robbed from its rightful owners.

Except it was done after the Palestinians refused to make concessions. They even starting lobbying rockets into Israel. Don't play this game with me.

J m HofMarN, on 31 March 2010 - 03:19 PM, said:

So does your mom, but I'll be polite and not advocate putting her in a concentration camp.

No she doesn't. She's a sweat lady who spends her spare time teaching people like you how to read.

[civilian_number_two]

Deucaon, on 01 April 2010 - 10:40 PM, said:

No she doesn't. She's a sweat lady who spends her spare time teaching people like you how to read.

Imagine if she had taught you? Then she might be less sweat.

[Deucaon]

civilian_number_two, on 02 April 2010 - 02:27 PM, said:

Imagine if she had taught you? Then she might be less sweat.

Unfortunately I had to put up with public education. Who knows what I could have achieved if I was given a proper education?

[J m HofMarN]

Settlers - You do know that settlements are essentially fortified castles occupied by a few hundred people usually? You do realize that the roads to them are Israeli settler only and must be patrolled to keep Palestinians from trying to sever these symbols of imperialist apartheid? So, Israel had to patrol not just the settlements, but the roads leading to them, and, oh yeah, every once in a while the settlers themselves got uppity and went to try and claim more land, which ended up causing a battle which the army had to come out for? So how was it a stupid decision to get rid of isolated outposts that did nothing and cost insane amounts of money to maintain?

Quote

Who said anything about concentration camps? Anyway, the world isn't about you. I've met my fair share of Arabs of all stripes but I don't factor my personal encounters into this. Because it has no place in this debate, and I'm not a closet narcissist.

Quote

They deserve to be eliminated as a people.

Ok if its not personal prejudice that has convinced you that all palestinians need to die, then what is it? Is it that god awful fascist "news" site you linked to? The one that says 25% of Americans believe that President Obama is reading their thoughts?

Quote

I'd like to call them ad hoc nationalists. You see when there's no war on they exploit everybody they can but when there's a war on they turn their psychotic impulses onto foreigners. In America they probably come in the form of mercenaries.

Exploit how? You do realize that a lot of the heroic fighters against Israel are just one phone call, one betrayal from ending up murdered by the Mossad in their bed like that poor fellow just recently, or thrown off a balcony in a "suicide", don't you? You couldn't hire a mercenary for a mission like that. And I hardly see how being willing to give their lives for the cause of their country makes them exploiters.

Quote

You wrote as if Israel/Palestine was unique. I was simply correctly your idiocy. I would also like to point out that Iraq is much worse off than Palestine.

Oh yes, because I needed you to tell me that Palestine isnt the only country in the world suffering from occupation and war. Thank you for informing me. I am curious as to just why Iraq is in a worse situation than Palestine.

Quote

Even though the Palestinian population has rapidly increased everywhere since the creation of Israel? Get real. Israelis have the ability to wipe out the Palestinians, they just don't have the balls for it.

Again, the Israelis have destroyed the Palestinian economy, they've wrecked Palestinian chances of nationhood by bisecting the West bank with Israeli only roads and settlements, denied Israeli arabs representation in government, they've forced Palestinians to either learn Hebrew and work in Israeli jobs for low wages or else starve, they steal land and throw the rightful occupants into refugee camps, etc etc. The destruction of a people need not be accomplished through murder, there are more subtle ways to go about it.

Quote

Except it was done after the Palestinians refused to make concessions. They even starting lobbying rockets into Israel. Don't play this game with me.

The Palestinians refused to negotiate concessions, and therefore the Israelis carpet bombed them? That's not how negotiation works. Also, I am unaware of any rocket lobbying going on on Capital hill. The Palestinians did fire rockets at Israel due to Israel sealing off the Gaza strip. Firing rockets at people is more of a fair negotiation than having them force concessions on you under threat of bombing.

Why does your mother teach literate people how to read? Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a sweet easy job, but it might be a tiny bit redundant.

Oh, and I think the majority of people on the forums attended public schools as well. There are some quite intelligent people who never even had that much of an advantage.

[Deucaon]

J m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

Settlers - You do know that settlements are essentially fortified castles occupied by a few hundred people usually? You do realize that the roads to them are Israeli settler only and must be patrolled to keep Palestinians from trying to sever these symbols of imperialist apartheid? So, Israel had to patrol not just the settlements, but the roads leading to them, and, oh yeah, every once in a while the settlers themselves got uppity and went to try and claim more land, which ended up causing a battle which the army had to come out for? So how was it a stupid decision to get rid of isolated outposts that did nothing and cost insane amounts of money to maintain?

I doubt it was fortified since I remember the news coming out of the Gaza Strip before they pulled them out. It was something like: "Palestinian guns down Israelis, Israeli guns down Palestinians, et cetera." And everybody knows that if it's doesn't have a moat, it's not a castle. (Joke.)

J m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

Ok if its not personal prejudice that has convinced you that all palestinians need to die, then what is it? Is it that god awful fascist "news" site you linked to? The one that says 25% of Americans believe that President Obama is reading their thoughts?

Then find other website which has the same message, you monkey brained piece of shit. For somebody who's a member of the fucking communist party, you're certainly a picky drone.

J m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

Exploit how? You do realize that a lot of the heroic fighters against Israel are just one phone call, one betrayal from ending up murdered by the Mossad in their bed like that poor fellow just recently, or thrown off a balcony in a "suicide", don't you? You couldn't hire a mercenary for a mission like that. And I hardly see how being willing to give their lives for the cause of their country makes them exploiters.

Yes, yes, yes. Because Israel goes for every member and not just the officers. My, you're moronic.

J m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

Oh yes, because I needed you to tell me that Palestine isnt the only country in the world suffering from occupation and war. Thank you for informing me. I am curious as to just why Iraq is in a worse situation than Palestine.

No, you need somebody to feed you because you're plainly retarded. You wrote that Palestine was worse off than Iraq. Iraq! The population in Palestine has spiked whereas the population in Iraq has plummeted and you have the nerve to say that the situation in Palestine is worse. Unless, of course, you're a total moron who's idea of debating is to endlessly spout rhetoric then yeah.

J m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

Again, the Israelis have destroyed the Palestinian economy, they've wrecked Palestinian chances of nationhood by bisecting the West bank with Israeli only roads and settlements, denied Israeli arabs representation in government, they've forced Palestinians to either learn Hebrew and work in Israeli jobs for low wages or else starve, they steal land and throw the rightful occupants into refugee camps, etc etc. The destruction of a people need not be accomplished through murder, there are more subtle ways to go about it.

What about Jordan and Egypt? I love your use of the word "rightful occupants." As if a Yank, of all people, has the authority to dictate who's the rightful owner to anything.

J m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

The Palestinians refused to negotiate concessions, and therefore the Israelis carpet bombed them? That's not how negotiation works. Also, I am unaware of any rocket lobbying going on on Capital hill. The Palestinians did fire rockets at Israel due to Israel sealing off the Gaza strip. Firing rockets at people is more of a fair negotiation than having them force concessions on you under threat of bombing.

Except that Israel has only ever reacted since the negations started. But you're right, carpet bombing isn't how negotiations work. Dropping mustard gas on densely population urban areas is how negotiations work. "Unconditional surrender" I believe your tribal forefathers called it.

J m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

Why does your mother teach literate people how to read? Don't get me wrong, it sounds like a sweet easy job, but it might be a tiny bit redundant.

Illiterate and semiliterate people, boy.

J m HofMarN, on 02 April 2010 - 05:09 PM, said:

Oh, and I think the majority of people on the forums attended public schools as well. There are some quite intelligent people who never even had that much of an advantage.

Indeed. Really puts the whole scam into perspective.