[J m HofMarN]

if firing them blindly is all there is to their resistance, then that's one extremely lousy resistance, no matter how you want look at it.

What about serving as the legitimate and elected government of Gaza? The resitance cannot only be military in nature. And they are a lousy resistance, but its absurd to demand that resistance fighters be on par with their imperiliast enemies. The Zionists have full US backing and recieve millions of dollars in military aid. And if we don't give them all our military information, their spies steal the remainder.

Second, if Western governments move to deciminalize Hamas and end the blockade? Now that's what I call realistic thinking.

Once they see that the resistance will not surrender, they must come to understand who will inevitably achieve victory. It is in our national interest to look at alternatives in the region that do not include Zionism.

Now where does the "working class movement" thing fit into this? This is about radical fanatics who shoot at each other, not some fight between capitalism and communism.

Marx says that imperialist war is a product of capitalism, and that all conflicts come from economic disparities and the desire of the ruling class to exploit the workers. The impoverished Palestinians clearly represent the workers of the world against the the great bulwark of imperialism and exploitation. The BPP understood this, and pushed for a defeat of American imperialism in Vietnam to hasten the fall of capitalism and exploitation at home. The Zionists show the true ruthless nature of imperialism, but the heart of that imperialism is still in Washington.

So you want to free one people and oppress another one in return? Sounds like you're going to have to switch sides afterward.

To destroy the exploiting class is a natural goal of any socialist. Freedom can only be gained when the oppressors are beaten. I hope that those in the Zionist entity who have not supported its actions can live in peace once Zionism is beaten. But my chief concern is for the working class who rightfully own that land.

By the sound of it, there should be lots of place for the Palestinians in other Arab states as well, they all seem very solidary. But oh, no wait, there already is a place where they could live, provided they stop firing rockets! How convenient!

That place is blockaded and besieged on all sides by Zionists. That's no way to live. The only way Palestinians can live in peace is if the blockade is lifted and the Zionists and the rest of hte world recognize Hamas' legitimacy as the elected representatives of their people, or if the Zionist entity is eliminated entirely and the rest of the world forced to recognize the nation of Palestine as governed by Hamas.

Israeli culture consists of way more than what the Jewish communities in the US have to offer, but never mind about that, like I said, this is no real argument.

Israel has only existed for sixty years, how can it have such a great culture as to be worth preserving above thousands of years of Palestinian culture and their rights to their land? Their culture can be as nice as you like, but that culture is still living on stolen land, and its adherents are still committing war crimes and genocide.

This will be my last post for at least two weeks. When I come back, I hope to be able to give more comment on the matter.

[Gobbler]

This ain't going nowhere since you're too stuck with your communism-only stuff.

Marx says that imperialist war is a product of capitalism, and that all conflicts come from economic disparities and the desire of the ruling class to exploit the workers.

Marx was human, ever considered that he could be wrong? Or that problems can have multiple reasons? Or no real reasons at all? That religion, economy, culture, education, personal opinions, philosophy and indoctrination etc. all count into stuff like this?

You're thinking far too single minded. Yesterday I asked around my family in Israel on their opinions and knowledge about the importance of the working class and other socialist buzzwords that you brought up in relation to this conflict, and they were mostly as puzzled as I was. Of course, everything is connected and can be used to come to conclusions that prove your point, but that's only one-sided arguing, the social, cultural and religious factors far outweigh that stuff, as far as I can tell.

This post has been edited by Gobbler: 19 January 2009 - 05:03 AM

[Chyld]

Since the entire Gaza issue has so thoroughly lost me its not funny, I'm not going to venture out of sheer I-don't-understand.

However, as far as the layover in London business goes, hells yeah I'm free then. I imagine the good Doctor's stuck in Hull at the time (I'll ask him in the next two days, I'm in Hull as we speak), but any Nightlifers in London... well, at all? Fancy a Nightlife out?

[J m HofMarN]

GREETINGS FROM THE EAST!

BLAMBABAGOMALAIKIM