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Tunes for torture musicians are displeased

#31 User is offline   TheOrator Icon

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 03:19 PM

QUOTE (JM)
Ok, maybe they should just pop up and say "torture is wrong" then go away. Then everyone will mumble acquiescence to look moral even though they honestly don't give a shit about shoving a light bulb up some darkie's ass, then they'll go back to their normal lives. Yay for taking the standard proper moral stand!


Yes, you're right, that would not work.

Good thing that's not what we're asking that they do.

For instance, Bob Geldorf didn't say poverty in Africa was wrong and then go away. No. He fucking did something about it. And he's been doing something about it for the last twenty five fucking years. Bono, too. If Rape Against the Marines and Heart Attack really want to change the world, they need to do something like those two did.

If they actually care about torture, they need to come out strong against it and use their means--and they have a fuckload of means--to effect some kind of change. It's possible. But whining over copyright infringement is not going to get it done.
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#32 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 05:18 PM

"Do something like Bono did" Is not a valid suggestion because we are not talking about poverty in Africa. Buying victims of torture a goat and helping them sow their crops will not make their situation any better. Also, the US government is not standing massively in the way of Bono and Geldorf's efforts. Short of physically assaulting the Guantanamo base and breaking them out, I don't know what more concrete action can really be taken.

I would like to know what, precisely, they should be doing, and not just "not this". Also I'd like to know why you're being needlessly hostile to people whose hearts, I think we can all agree, are in the right place.

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#33 User is offline   TheOrator Icon

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 06:58 PM

What they should be doing is organizing mass pan-Artist anti-torture concerts and launching mass anti-torture ad campaigns to convince people it's shit and make them elect a responsible fucking president, that's what. We have the great fortune of living in country that does not need to be invaded to be made untyrannical. I know RatM has done musical protests--a friend of mine attended the RNC one where people got arrested--but nothing in the measure of Live Aid or Concert for Bangladesh. And I'd think RatM has enough clout to make it happen, if Bob Geldorf did.

And why am I being so hostile? Because these people seem hypocritical to me. Their mouths are in the right place, but I wonder if their hearts are.
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#34 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 07:05 PM

Oh yeah, what a great idea. All sorts of musicians would love to be associated with "terrorists" and left wing politics. I'm sure they'll jump at the chance.

RATM and Massive Attack ARE putting on a concert if you hadn't noticed, it's in the UK somewhere and benefiting Relief. It's a small concert yeah, but it's what they can do. The American public at large are not interested in the human rights of those they believe to be their enemies. I doubt a concert like that would succeed here, an example being the Minneapolis pigs breaking up the concert at the RNC and arresting/charging with terrorism a bunch of the protesters there.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 14 December 2008 - 07:07 PM

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#35 User is offline   TheOrator Icon

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 07:25 PM

Saying "They're not doing a concert because no one cares about it" is exactly why they need to do the damn concert.

And what is this you're saying about musicians not wanting to be associated with left-wing politics? That's just such a silly idea I don't even know how to respond.
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#36 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 10:25 PM

Yeah, really... Short of Drowning Pool and a couple other redneck-rock bands, some country musicians, oh, and some CCM musicians that no one cares about... They pretty much all are left-wing and proud of it. Most celebs, too.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 14 December 2008 - 11:43 PM
Reason for edit:: clarification

I am writing about Jm in my signature because apparently it's an effective method of ignoring him.
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#37 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 05:12 AM

Ah yes, the classic "the entire entertainment industry is liberal" theory. I love that old chestnut. It's one small step to the center from "the entire entertainment industry is liberal and run by Jews" which is the more frequent and more negative variation. Neither are true, and even if they were America is, for whatever insane reason, a center right nation so unless they cater directly to the left like RATM and Massive Attack, not a lot of musicians are going to join up on what will surely be painted as a traitorous, radical left wing cause.

This is not because they are copyright mongers who only care about profits. This is because selling music and image is their job, and if they fail, they don't get their pay. They need to eat and work like every one of us, though some are more akin to workers than others, such as Rage.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#38 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 07:33 AM

Orator, the thing is the music isn't simply used for torture and then that's it done. The music is used and then its use is publicly made available to the media so that we here in this forum can talk about it. Once that's done, the music has been used in a way not condoned ny the artists, namely in support of a regime of torture. Hence the analogy of using a not-public-domain (the music is not in the public domain either) picture of Spoon, photoshopped to lick my balls because what the hell, to sell the pro-life argument, without her consent. I'm not making money from it, but I am attaching it to a political message, like the torturers are when they let people know that they used certain bands instead of others to torture prisoners.

It is arguably an actionable offense and they are right to take advantage of it. And yeah, likely they won't keep at it for 25 years like Bob Geldof has done with African poverty because yeah, they don't really care all that much about it. But their level of commitment has nothing to do with the legal question, and less to do with how terrible it is to torture people, generally without cause but always illegally, just because it always works for Jack Bauer.
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#39 User is offline   TheOrator Icon

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Posted 15 December 2008 - 07:11 PM

I never said the whole entertainment industry was liberal. But many of the most popular musicians in America are very clear and open about being liberal. You could, I'm sure, get Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen in on this concert. It's looking good already. And those chicks who said they were ashamed Bush was a Texan.

And I like you plea that musicians are people, too, but this is not digging into their reserves at all, I'm afraid.


Civ:
And the government didn't release this statement, the detainees did. It's not like the people at Gitmo thought, "Man, we oughta tell people we're doing this awesome music stuff." No. If you had the picture of the balls, and you were showing it to people and this was legal, but then one person reports it to the media and then the picture is all over the internet, now you've committed a crime? I mean, yes, there is evidence from the government that this happened (why in the hell don't the try to keep torture under wraps?) but they didn't announce it publicly themselves.
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#40 User is offline   Casual Icon

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 02:26 PM

Looks like this is soon to become a moot argument.
QUOTE (arien @ Jun 29 2008, 03:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So this baby, while still inside its mother, murdered his twin brother and STOLE HIS PENIS.

That is one badass baby.

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#41 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 11:08 PM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Dec 11 2008, 04:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Because don't believe what TV is telling you: torture is ineffective at getting information.


Actually, I'd like to point out that torture, when actually done right, is very effective. Of course when it comes actually doing it, just about everybody screws it up. There was a type of mental torture that when applied had amazing results, for the people it worked on. It was used by a group of experimental torturers during the Vietnam war. For the people it worked on, when they broke, they gave nearly 100% accurate information, and told their torturers just about everything. The reason why it didn't work on most of the people it was attempted on was because the American military wasn't truly interested in this brand of torture, and only gave the tortures 4 days max before having them transfered to those who practiced more traditional methods. And compared to some other countries, like Argentinia (I think it was that one, or one of the other South American countries, can't remember if the same government is still in power either), we really suck at the whole taking prisoners and torturing them. They unlike us have/had managed to create a virtual prison of fear within thier populace.

One of the classes I took in the Fall was Political Anthropology, but in my opinion it could have been called Known Atrocities commited by the United States and Other Governments because that was basically 3/4 of the class. And, I do have sources for these things, I can't remember if I brought them home, or left them at school. When I find them though, I'll post them.

Apparently writing about JM here is his secret weakness. Muwahaha!!!! Now I have leverage over him and am another step closer towards my goal of world domination.

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#42 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 03:46 AM

Zatoichi, you can argue till you're blue in the mouth about how certain techniques will produce perfect results, and this or that study and so forth, but that's moot. Torture is an ineffective means of gathering information because generally we capture and torture people who don't know what we want to know. Example: capture a random Iraqi soldier and feed him his nutsack if he doesn't tell you where Osama bin Laden is hiding. Woo, totally scary torture technique, and you've mutilated someone who doesn't know anything, and at the same time you have made a pretty bad name for yourself and your nation.

The fictional example of the bomb in the briefcase and Jack Bauer doing the questioning only works because the antiheroic torturer always captures the right man. He never puts a guy in a room for 4 years endlessly threatening and terrorizing him before he grudgingly has to admit he'd imprisoned an innocent man in the first place. That would make bad television.

The answer to the question "But what about when they do capture someone who knows something? Well, guess what? The other side knows he's missing and they change up. So even if you can break him down with the "more than 4 days" method you describe, the information by then would be completely worthless. The one or two cases in history where an opponent could be out of touch from his cell for more than 4 days and his cell wouldn't clue in that he'd been captured are not enough to justify adopting a system of brutality that fails just about all the time.

Military intelligence is fairly secure. Soldiers don't know fuck all, and you're never going to capture any of the brass. However if you were to be so lucky, such a person's disappearance would be noticed in much less than the 4+ days you say we need. So torture is an ineffective means of gathering information. Much better tools include spy satellites, traditional espionage and believe it or not, diplomacy.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#43 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 02:13 PM

I think torture probably USED to be an effective tool - back before travel was fast, before information transference was fast, before everything was... fast.

Such as, you capture the enemy spy within your territory... You torture him and he tells you where the enemy army is headed for a surprise attack. Well, since Mister Spy wasn't expected back to enemy camps for another fortnight due to the fastest method of travel being a horse, the enemy doesn't suspect anything and continues with their original plan. On top of that, the enemy army marching together to their destination takes a really long time, so one guy on a horse can beat them to their destination and let them know that the attack is coming, so they can ready their defenses and so forth.

But this is when all messages were carried by horse at best, and all traveling was done by horse at best. Nowadays I don't think there is an argument that could convince me that torture is effective.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 07 January 2009 - 02:15 PM

I am writing about Jm in my signature because apparently it's an effective method of ignoring him.
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#44 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:23 PM

QUOTE
Actually, I'd like to point out that torture, when actually done right, is very effective. Of course when it comes actually doing it, just about everybody screws it up.


So, provided that our government become torturers par excellance, it will be worth it? I hate to introduce the slippery slope argument, but genocide, if done right, say through forcibly moving ethnic communities around to make ethnicly pure areas, might be very effective too, right? But it's still inethical for a host of reasons. Ethics have a place in politics and war, not only for honor but for propaganda value.

QUOTE
And compared to some other countries, like Argentinia (I think it was that one, or one of the other South American countries, can't remember if the same government is still in power either), we really suck at the whole taking prisoners and torturing them. They unlike us have/had managed to create a virtual prison of fear within thier populace.


You're likely addressing Operation Condor which was a wide reaching reactionary assault against leftism and civil rights throughout South America orchestrated by the CIA and OAS. Chile, Bolivia, Columbia and Nicaragua are just some of the countries that employed torture. I really don't think you can "suck" at something that is decidedly evil though. And all of those regimes have been overthrown, although not nearly with enough violence. In Chile, the wife of one of the Disaparados is now in power, so that shows you how far things have swung. Also, consider the wide majority that leftists have in power in those areas. Could this be from the former governments resorting to indecency?

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#45 User is offline   Zatoichi Icon

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 06:17 PM

Sorry, I've been really busy. I'll have a response after I've had the chance to do some proper research.
Apparently writing about JM here is his secret weakness. Muwahaha!!!! Now I have leverage over him and am another step closer towards my goal of world domination.

"And the Evil that was vanquished shall rise anew. Wrapped in the guise of man shall he walk amongst the innocent and Terror shall consume they that dwell upon the Earth. The skies will rain fire. The seas shall become as blood. The righteous shall fall before the wicked! And all creation shall tremble before the burning standards of Hell!" - Mephisto

Kurgan X showed me this web comic done with Legos. It pokes fun at all six Star Wars films and I found it to be extremely entertaining.
<a href="http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html" target="_blank">http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/cast/starwars.html</a>
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