[Just your average movie goer]

Okay, if you say so, I'll have to take your word that you're not being malicious. Like I said, I don't know what you're thinking and I don't know you in person - so I was just guessing at what your game was.

"Also, many household pets probably fail it because they probably don't think of themselves as dogs and cats. They most likely think of themselves as being people. "

Im a little confused by this. Even if they think of themselves as people, they would still think of themselves as furry little people right? So, upon seeing their furry face in the mirror, moving when they move, meowing when they meow, they should be able to recognize themselves.... if they have a concept of self.

Fair enough, I'm happy to elaborate on this further...

A dog, for example, lives with a family that feels like it's own - so I rationalise that it thinks it's a person. However, when it goes walking around the neighbourhood, it sees all these little furry things that bark at it. It probably thinks these things are weird and tells them to bugger off - but little does it know, it's barking too.

Then when it's confronted with a mirror, it sees what believes to be yet another one of those funny furry things that annoy it on its walks.

"If an objective judge viewed our debate in the George Lucarse thread, you would have lost a long time ago."

Bullshit. That's simply not true. My points were valid, and I wouldn't have posted them unless I thought so. I think an objective viewer would have decided you were taking an extreme view that you couldn't adequetly defend.

I thought I defended my viewpoint easily with an almost inexhaustive supply of arguments. My viewpoint was extreme - but I had a long list of points to rationalise it. I believe that you were really clutching at straws. You couldn't actually properly debunk the majority of the points I made - you only thought you could.

However, on this last point, I think it's best if we just agree to disagree or else we're going to end up getting this thread locked as well.

To everyone else, sorry for the interruption. As you were...

[Jordan]

Abortion in order to save a women is ok. Abortion to clean up your mistake is not ok. Give the kid up for adoption. Many loving familys adopt kids. And I'm sure if the kid had a say in it not many would choose non-existence over perhaps a lesser luxurious existence. It's better to play and lose than to not play at all. Make love not war. Free the political prisoners, and all that good stuff. I have not slept tonight. I played Warcraft, like an ass, all night long. I have nothing to show for it other than 0-3 record, a map I made that is filled with bugs, and sore eyes.

[Just your average movie goer]

Thanks Laura, for the advice. I'm sorry about causing drama... I want these boards to be nice and drama-free as well. The whole reason why I liked this board in the first place was because I thought it was a friendly community.

[Laura]

Jordan, I think if you were a woman you might have a different view. Or maybe it's just because I'm completely terrified of being pregnant. Not even having a kid (once I had a kid I could give it up for adoption!), but just going through the nine months of having a body that is increasingly not my own, with a thing growing in it. Hey, that can be my "thing that freaks me out"!

Oh, and I'm also afraid of babies.

[Heccubus]

Jordan, I think if you were a woman you might have a different view. Or maybe it's just because I'm completely terrified of being pregnant. Not even having a kid (once I had a kid I could give it up for adoption!), but just going through the nine months of having a body that is increasingly not my own, with a thing growing in it. Hey, that can be my "thing that freaks me out"!

Oh, and I'm also afraid of babies.

Two things:
I am pro-choice, but if it becomes a matter of a woman just going "Oops, didn't mean for that to happen now, did we?" I have a hard time with it. I mean, really, an abortion is by no means a pleasant experience, so it's not like women are just going out and not using birth control with the idea that they can just get an abortion if they get pregnant, but you know...I think that in any case, however, it should be up to the woman involved, not a bunch of people who have never been, and will never be, in that situation.

Secondly, I am afraid of babies as well. I don't like being around them much, and when someone hands me one to hold, I become extremely uncomfortable.

[Rory]

"I thought I defended my viewpoint easily with an almost inexhaustive supply of arguments. My viewpoint was extreme - but I had a long list of points to rationalise it. I believe that you were really clutching at straws. You couldn't actually properly debunk the majority of the points I made - you only thought you could."

Well, not surprisingly, I believe that opposite, that my points were valid, that they debunked yours, and that you really started clutching at straws towards the end.

"However, on this last point, I think it's best if we just agree to disagree or else we're going to end up getting this thread locked as well."

I agree; I have no particular desire to argue this matter any further.

In terms of abortion, I think its an important question whether or not the fetus is a sentient creature that is aware of its existence. If it is, then its rights should be balanced with those of the mother; if not, then there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the act of abortion.

[Just your average movie goer]

"However, on this last point, I think it's best if we just agree to disagree or else we're going to end up getting this thread locked as well."

I agree; I have no particular desire to argue this matter any further.

Thanks, Rory. Sorry about getting personal as well. I don't know you personally so I had no right to have a go at you. I take back the things I said about you.

And who knows, when we discuss a few more things, we may discover that we actually have more things in common than we think. This could be the start of a beautiful friendship.

And regarding abortion, I liked what you said, Heccubus -

I think that in any case, however, it should be up to the woman involved, not a bunch of people who have never been, and will never be, in that situation.

Too many people try to control other people's lives when they have no right to. In particular, I have a problem with the involvement of religious groups on this topic. By all means, they are entitled to have a say, but I don't believe they have any right to use religious beliefs in their arguments.

Religion MUST remain seperate from the everyday running of society. If people start making laws based on their own religious beliefs, it is discriminatory against everyone who does not hold those beliefs. Laws should be made on mutual agreement. We don't have laws against murder because the Bible says it's wrong - we have them because it is the general consensus of most populations that murder is bad.

As such, it should be the case for abortion. The rights of women, the rights of unborn babies, the circumstances of different pregnancies - these are all things that are welcome in a debate on abortion. The Bible, however, is not.

[Laura]

if it becomes a matter of a woman just going "Oops, didn't mean for that to happen now, did we?"

That's a pretty trivial way of characterizing it.

First of all, this isn't just about women. It's totally unfair to expect your partner to go through a pregnancy and possibly raise a child because you both decided to have sex when you weren't in a position to deal with the possibility of said child. I hope that everyone who holds this view--that abortion is only OK when the woman's health is otherwise at risk-- puts it into practice by not having sex until both partners are in a position to have a child, should it come up.

The truth is that there's always going to be a lot of couples having sex without being in a position to have a child. Should we force all women who are unlucky enough to have their birth control fail to have their kid, just to teach them a lesson? For I would argue that this is far more about luck than it is about making a mistake. However, it depends on your views about sex, I suppose. Which is probably a can of worms I don't want to get into.

[Just your average movie goer]

That's a very good point, Laura. I was too exhausted to raise it myself so I'm glad somebody said it.

[Amber-Nicole]

See, this is the biggest thing I am trying to combat, a blind acceptance that animals think and feel in ways very similar to our own. What you are having is an emotional reaction; you see your kitties rolling around, and looking at you with their kitty eyes, and you think "they must be intelligent. they must see the world in the same basic way that I do." But thats not necessarily true.

Heh, I don't know why I'm dragging this back up. I guess I like to argue too.

Rory, let me tell you something about me. I have completely NO LOGIC. I don't care about books and science and all of that. Well I do, and I value and am interested in that stuff. But my beliefs are just a certain why. Maybe they aren't necessarily based on anything. I just believe them. I know it's silly to argue without facts. But I don't need facts. I just have this thing for animals. They're a big part of my life. I believe they have souls, and are concious of their own existance, and I will believe this until the day I die.

Now, back to the more current subject of abortion. I'm against it in the situation of cleaning up a mistake. But I'm for it if it's threatening a woman's health. I myself am also terrified of being pregnant, and having an alien inside of me. Well he/she wouldn't be an alien. But it would remind me of one! ~shudders~ I just don't think people should take the risk if they cannot handle the consequences.