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Return of the King How it should have been done.

#16 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 04:17 AM

It was a pretty amazing work - the scope of it is just unbelievable. I have to say that initially, I didn't like Tolkien and it was only after I saw The Fellowship of the Rings at the movies, that I became interested.

And reading The Silmarillion was quite a nice change from reading The Lord of the Rings. Where The Lord of the Rings would spend 50 pages on establishing the scene, The Silmarillion would cover 500 years of history in less than half of that.

I certainly found it a lot more interesting than the Bible as well and as a writer myself, I was just awe-struck. A lot of writers, myself included (proud to say), can create believable well-fleshed out worlds. Tolkien, however, wrote a creation myth for his world - and it's so comprehensive, elaborate and complicated - that it feels like the work of hundreds of writers over a thousand year period.

It is a tragedy that he never finished it - for it was his life's work, started in the trenches of the Somme in World War I, while his friends lay dead around him. Tolkien suffered much in life and this led him very early on to ask the big questions and try to find some meaning in life.

From what I've learned, when he wrote The Hobbit, it was just intended as a children's tale, nothing more. When he wrote The Lord of the Rings, it was because his publisher had asked for a sequel to The Hobbit but as everyone knows, that sequel kind of got out of hand.

And as he wrote it, Tolkien suddenly thought of a grand idea - he would tie this novel into the mythology that he had been working on all his life... which he obviously did through the ring and Sauron. And the rest, as we so often say, is history.

I really enjoy your posts, by the way. I've been getting lazy recently and have been doing a lot of quick touch-and-go replies - so it's nice to be able to slow down occasionally and have some longer, well thought out posts.

And... people really tried to justify the use of Gimli as comic relief and Legolas as a chick magnet? That's messed-up.
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#17 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 10:29 AM

I can't believe I neglected to mention this earlier - but I remembered thinking that there was another thing in the book of Return of the King that really should have made it into the film. In fact, it feels almost criminal that it was left out.

Does everybody remember in the book how Aragorn's fellow rangers, the Dunedain join him before he goes to the Pellenor Fields?

That would have been so powerful and would have added a lot of substance to a movie that was sorely lacking it. I was really disappointed that we didn't see this - and I suspect that we're probably not going to see it in the Extended Edition either.
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#18 User is offline   Zerahsedai Icon

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Posted 25 May 2004 - 04:07 PM

Add another number to those who have read the Silmarillion.

It is one of my most favorite books, and it only gets better each time I've read it.

Tolkien is a genius. Unfortunately, Peter Jackson is not. Almost, but not quite. sad.gif
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#19 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 26 May 2004 - 03:38 AM

I agree completely Movie Goer, it's incredibly wrong to use someone related to During the Deathless as comic relief. I was awed by the Silmarillion and I think it's a book that not a lot of people can grasp, I mean most people can't even really grasp the bible and this thing is way more intricate. I trust you know that Tolkien even wrote an elven language for these books? He was a professor of language at a well known English college, Oxford I believe and hhe wrote the elven language with a unique alphabet and every singly human word has an elven equivalent, it even has grammar and conjugation.

So you're a writer as well? I've penned three unpublished novels and I don't know how much poetry and essays. I suppose being well read is kind of a requirement for being a writer which is why so few people write well these days, they hardly bother with real literacy in the schools anymore. Which is likely one of the reasons the funny dwarf and sex elf idea was accepted. Are you also annoyed by the horrible use of Gimli and Legolas trying to outscore one another? Once was kind of cool but keeping it going into RotK was bad. And I agree, the coming of the grey company would have been sweet. It's yet another thing that tells me that they were more worried about showing Aragorn's cool army and sword than they were about showing what those things symbolized.

Alright! Three Silmarillion readers! I've only read it once because I gave my copy of the novel to my DM so he could read it and then he disappeared. (I tend to give all my novels away or at least lone them, it strikes me as wrong to let them languish on a shelf)

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#20 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 26 May 2004 - 08:54 AM

Well, I have had a copy of the Silmarillion in my possesion for at least 15 years now, but have never really gotten arround to reading it. Dunno, why. I guess when I was younger I thought the book would be boring. Now, I may just take a stab at it.
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#21 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 26 May 2004 - 08:58 AM

QUOTE
Well, I have had a copy of the Silmarillion in my possesion for at least 15 years now, but have never really gotten arround to reading it. Dunno, why. I guess when I was younger I thought the book would be boring. Now, I may just take a stab at it.



It sits right next to my copy of Battlefield Earth, which I also never got around to reading. and my entire Dune chronicles {which I am proud to say i completely read ebery book}
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#22 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 26 May 2004 - 10:17 AM

Read it - you can do it. It takes far less time to read than The Lord of the Rings anyway, so I think a lot more people can read it than are letting on. It's not like a James Joyce novel or anything. And it's so fascinating, you probably won't want to put it down.

Yeah, JM, I have to agree about the competition between Legolas and Gimli. You know, I enjoyed it in The Two Towers but when it carried into Return of the King, I just thought "Are you still going at this?"

It also really destroyed Legolas' elvern mystique - he had none by the end of the movie.

You sound like you write a lot more than me. I've finished some really short novels but I'm still struggling with the one I really want to finish the most - my pet project for a decade. I'd almost discard it - except I've spent so long on it already that I feel I must finish it. But of late, I've been fairly busy and when there's so many good things to do in life, it's hard to make yourself sit down in front of the computer for a while and type up a novel. Ah... one day, I'll finish it.

Maybe I could send it to a literary competition or try to get it published - get some money in return for my troubles. But so far, being an amateur writer is good enough for me. I don't have the right mind-set for getting rich from writing as I always write for an audience of one.... this average movie goer.
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#23 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 26 May 2004 - 10:31 PM

the sillmarillion is my favorite book of all time!!!
and yes, very biblical... the storys are told in a very similar manner...
i quite like the style... it covers alot but 'zooms in' when you need alittle more.

but you need to read unfinished tales if you want a better description of some of the things that happen in it.
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#24 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 26 May 2004 - 11:13 PM

Well I've had it 20 years and although the spine is cracked in places, other than that I haven't had much patience with it. However, I'm pleased to see such fine reviews. Now I've another goal on my list.
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#25 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 27 May 2004 - 12:35 AM

as for all the negative opinions on the films...

i have to say, i was not much of a fan of the two towers until i saw the Extended Edition. and ROTK is even more so, going to end up that way... because they edited the shit out of it... the cinematic versions are to be ignored... they're for for the average movie goer, but no just you're average movie goer...

you've seen 3hrs and 30min of a 4hr and 15min film... there's almost an hour missing...

and Zerahsedai, i think you'll change your mind about Peter Jackson if you see Brain Dead (AKA Dead Alive), and meet the feebles.
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#26 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 27 May 2004 - 03:31 AM

Movie Goer- A lot of people ahve that illusion but writing for yourself is what you have to do. If the story you write has no meaning to you it won't have meaning for anyone else. Tolkien is a prime example. He hardly knew when he started that what he was doing was going to become the delight of the world. I suggest you pursue publishing, it couldn't hurt. Just don't spend any money up front, for the love of god never give any person in the publishing world money up front.

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#27 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 27 May 2004 - 04:47 AM

Cool. Thanks for the tip - I'll keep it in mind. Right now, I've still got to produce the goods... it'll certainly be a load off the shoulders. Then I'll see what I'd like to do with it afterwards. I may have to run it by my younger brother, who is my unpaid editor... and pretty ruthless. Then I'll know if it's finished. The last time, I ran my novel by him (thinking it was finished) he said "The first part is excellent. The second part is fairly good but it needs a bit of polishing. And the third part should be slashed and burned."

I'm hoping my next draft will do better.... smile.gif
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#28 User is offline   Zerahsedai Icon

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Posted 28 May 2004 - 03:30 PM

Barend-

I have not seen those movies, though I have heard of them. I have seen Heavenly Creatures, and I liked it. Very weird.

I guess what I was trying to say is Tolkien is god.

Jackson makes good movies, but is not god. wink.gif
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#29 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 01 June 2004 - 11:51 AM

cool...

but is that cat giving me the finger?
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#30 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 13 June 2004 - 01:50 AM

I re-watched Return of the King recently, and I have to be honest. Despite all it's flaws, there's still a lot of stuff to like about the movie. So in no way is it as bad as Return of the Jedi or anything like that. It's just that it fell far short of its predecessors and there was absolutely no need for it.

I noticed a couple of other things about the movie though - firstly, it takes far too long to say so little and that's a problem. It was also a problem with The Two Towers.

The next point is that it so damn bright! There is sunshine and blue sky everywhere and any supposedly dark brooding clouds are light grey at best. In Mordor even - I saw blue sky in the distance. It is really ... unappreciated.

However, I would like to also say that I noticed something really cool. It was cheeky and comical but as I didn't notice it during the first couple of viewings, I have to say that it was nicely done. Personally, despite all its probable wrong-ness, I loved it.

When everyone is in the hall of Minas Tirith, discussing their plan to distract Sauron and buy Frodo time, you'll notice that Gimli is sitting down. Watch it again and you will also notice that not only is he sitting down, but he is sitting down in the throne and everyone else is standing before him.

I take my hat off to the comical genius who thought that one up. That is fantastic!
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