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Yahtzee & Joss Whedon Hard to pick sides

#1 User is offline   Daniel Pharos Icon

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 04:08 AM

When I listened to the last Australian Gamer podcast feat. Yahtzee, I was "shocked" to hear that Yahtzee hates Joss Whedon. Oh dear. Both are two of my favourite writers, how can that be? I count the days until the next ZP episode, and I totally worshipped the 3 2/3 or what good seasons of Buffy, and Firefly and whatnot.

I can follow Yahtzee's reasoning, but (for the 1st time) find myself in heavy disagreeage to the master. wink.gif Yes, as he states, Joss's characters all have the same witty lines, throughout all series he wrote. But they are good, so for me it's a good thing. I hardly know anyone who can forge storylines and witty dialogues like Joss.

Oh no, I am torn apart. wink.gif Well, no, I honour Yahtzee's opinion anyway. There is far from enough good writing out there to "pick sides".

What do you guys say? Have you listened to the podcast, do you have an opinion to this?


Daniel Pharos
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#2 User is offline   Patch Icon

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 07:19 AM

You sound fanboyish, no offence implied for once. You seem like an appropriate fanboy that can normally approach a scenario with good language.
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#3 User is offline   Zin Icon

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 01:45 PM

I was never really into Buffy or Angel, but I enjoyed most of Firefly, Serenity, and Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog.


Yahtzee's argument is mostly correct. There's a bit of exageration, but the overall point is that Whedon is limited in his ability to write characters, basically being limited to two character types and the occasional character that embodies both. Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog is a fine example, as the three main characters slot in nicely. Penny's a ditz, Captain Hammer's a badass, and Dr. Horrible oscillates between the two.

Whedon is by no means a bad writer; he has an excellent grasp of setting, plot, humour and other bits of writing. The main problem I have is that he's nowhere near good enough to even remotely justify his popularity. Making a few series with decent plots and a collection of memorable moments and one-liners shouldn't get you worshipped as some sort of television God, it should get you recognized as reasonably competent. Instead, Joss Whedon somehow wound up with a bunch of faith-blind slavering fanatics who lay praise on everything he touches.


Actually, Yahtzee's somehow wound up with a bunch of faith-blind slavering fanatics who lay praise on everything he does, but at least he openly despises them.
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#4 User is offline   HldmeThrllmeChrs&Trlby Icon

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 02:25 AM

Your foolish queztioning has made dfirely ads pop up all over! why would you advertise for THE ENEMA!!!?
i really dont ok?
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#5 User is offline   Poplopo Icon

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 04:34 PM

You don't have to abandon being a fan of Whedon just because Yahtzee's pointed out his faults. Every creative person has flaws in their work, and those flaws mean more to some people than others. In fact, you could appreciate both Yahtzee and Whedon at the same time! In this way you get to have an opinion of your own! How novel.

This post has been edited by Poplopo: 14 September 2008 - 04:34 PM

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#6 User is offline   HldmeThrllmeChrs&Trlby Icon

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 05:27 PM

i have opinons of my oan they just happen to be borrowed from yahtzee. jyust liek how if yahyzee said you needed to die, i'd be all "gangland, or excution style?"
i really dont ok?
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#7 User is offline   Spann Icon

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 06:29 PM

Hey! I know what you should get:
One of these.
What better way to show your frankly creepy love of an author?
"There comes a time in every person's life when they should learn to shut up. It is called 'birth'."

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#8 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 06:57 PM

QUOTE
What better way to show your frankly creepy love of an author?


Erotic fanfiction?

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 14 September 2008 - 07:01 PM

Quote

I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#9 User is offline   Spann Icon

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 07:01 PM

I wonder if there is any YZ fanfic anywhere...
"There comes a time in every person's life when they should learn to shut up. It is called 'birth'."

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#10 User is offline   Ghello Icon

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 08:58 PM

The guy who made Buffy and Angel right? Is it really that hard to hate the guys writing?
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#11 User is offline   Icey Icon

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 09:00 PM

Increasingly so, he has amusing ideas. Serenity was a blast and Firefly was fun to watch, but it's a far cry from genius. It's a fun fun thing, without much depth.

I tried to watch Angel and Buffy but found everyone extremely unlikeable.

QUOTE (Spann @ Sep 14 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wonder if there is any YZ fanfic anywhere...

There is now.

This post has been edited by Icey: 14 September 2008 - 09:01 PM

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#12 User is offline   HldmeThrllmeChrs&Trlby Icon

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Posted 14 September 2008 - 09:53 PM

the fanfic is not so good. it doesn ot have any of yahtzees skivvies in it and thats a shame becuz it could have been great if someon wit a real fision had directed it, ok.
i really dont ok?
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#13 User is offline   Patch Icon

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 01:22 AM

QUOTE (Icey @ Sep 15 2008, 12:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is now.

I don't hate you.
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#14 User is offline   Poplopo Icon

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 08:48 AM

I just don't understand how someone could go from writing something as crappy as Buffy to something as wonderful as Firefly.
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#15 User is offline   Daniel Pharos Icon

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Posted 15 September 2008 - 11:08 AM

QUOTE (Poplopo @ Sep 15 2008, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I just don't understand how someone could go from writing something as crappy as Buffy to something as wonderful as Firefly.



Hmm. I have a special history with Buffy. At first, as every serious darkness-lover I thought "what the hell? Vampire clowns vs. Cheerleaders?".

But the strength is not only (I think!) strong wit, but great storyflow. I mean, season 3, 4 and 5 of Buffy are with few exceptions one long epic storyflow with a lot of good ideas.

I understand the criticism, but it doesn't bother me if I hear the same humour in all lines, that's concept. It's the same with all comedy series I like. But I think he has really heavy characters with a lot of depth (always compared to other TV series, we are not talking literature here). Development of Spike or Willow comes to mind, if you have followed the Buffy series.

If you want to judge his impact as a writer on his own serieses, look at what happens when J.W. is NOT working on them, look at the seasons where he was "away". When he distanced himself from Buffy to do Firefly, the series got really bad, and as soon as he joined Angel, Angel suddenly became good. That's something.

OK I feared as much, not many pro Josses here, well at least I started a thread that actually is about something wink.gif

The questions I have:

1. Is he so popular? Look at the AustralianGamers forum commenting on the Podcast, Joss gets a lot of hate. OK, he doctored a few Hollywood scripts without much credits. He had Buffy and a little Angel. And Firefly which crashed.

2. And there are so many bad writers out there, many of them much more popular, why can't we attack those? wink.gif No really, I think his good episodes are among the 10% goodness on TV.

Well not important. Just wanted to talk a little with you guys.
Daniel Pharos
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www.DanielPharos.com
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