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EU assumptions what they've done to water down SW

#1 User is offline   GrimmyV Icon

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Posted 03 September 2008 - 08:19 PM

Just a lot of gripes that I've had over the years...

why must lightsabres require giant glowing crystals to work? I thought lightsabres were just nifty bits of technology and not some magical, right of passage that only jedi could build, much less wield.

Why don't standard TIE fighters have shields? It sure looked like that had shields when Han and Luke were shooting at them from their quad guns. Or was I just imagining that. Oh, and who said that TIEs lack life support for their pilots?

Why were there so many iterations of the X-wing in the later novels? I got the impression that the X-wing wasn't all that special in the movies. In fact most of the Rebel ships were what-ever they could scrounge up. I suppose the authors wanted to use the iconic fighters from the trilogy and wanted to justify their continued use by a galactic government despite the obvious fact that the fighters were not the best choice in all or even most battle situations.

Where did the whole "prejudiced empire" thing come from? Just because Wookiees were enslaved and most aliens were shown as villians and rogues doesn't mean there was an official or even unofficial imperial policy of "humans first". Why would aliens wish to join a galactic armed force when most aliens species were not as widespread as humanity in the first place? Most planets had some form of defense force, so most aliens who wanted a military occupation would probably opt to join their local armed forces.

And another thing about aliens...why does one example shown in the movies make all other aliens of that species the same? For example Greedo was a bounty hunter, so ALL rodians become bounty hunters and even have some kind of "hunter culture" back on their own planet.

Just some things that have ticked me off over the years.
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#2 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 03:52 PM

QUOTE (GrimmyV @ Sep 3 2008, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
why must lightsabres require giant glowing crystals to work? I thought lightsabres were just nifty bits of technology and not some magical, right of passage that only jedi could build, much less wield.


The crystal thing came into effect from Lucas in the ebook Secret History of Star Wars. Originally the lightsaber had an energy pack, like a battery that was carried around with it. It had hoses and such, but Lucas scrapped the idea and wanted to add a more "mystical" effect to the film by incorporating crystals, some being in tune to the Force while others enhanced abilities. Before the Force was tainted by midichlorians, the power crystal aspect wasn't a hinderance to the stories. KotOR uses this and makes it work.

QUOTE (GrimmyV @ Sep 3 2008, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Where did the whole "prejudiced empire" thing come from? Just because Wookiees were enslaved and most aliens were shown as villians and rogues doesn't mean there was an official or even unofficial imperial policy of "humans first". Why would aliens wish to join a galactic armed force when most aliens species were not as widespread as humanity in the first place? Most planets had some form of defense force, so most aliens who wanted a military occupation would probably opt to join their local armed forces.


It came from ...The Empire! J/K, I suppose it was a point of view that a writer was taking to show sentients in beings other than humans. As for the planets having their own defenses, the Empire wiped that out. How do you take over a country? Take away the right to bare arms, and enslave/execute everyone.

QUOTE (GrimmyV @ Sep 3 2008, 09:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And another thing about aliens...why does one example shown in the movies make all other aliens of that species the same? For example Greedo was a bounty hunter, so ALL rodians become bounty hunters and even have some kind of "hunter culture" back on their own planet.


I agree that it is silly. Just like with all Trandoshans being bloodthirsty slavers or bounty hunters. However, there is a species that isn't violent at all, save one member. I don't know the name of the species but I'm refering to the character "Durge," he was in the Clone Wars cartoon a few years back. He was the bounty hunter that fought Obi-wan.

This post has been edited by Vesuvius: 04 September 2008 - 03:53 PM

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#3 User is offline   GrimmyV Icon

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 08:01 AM

"As for the planets having their own defenses, the Empire wiped that out. How do you take over a country? Take away the right to bare arms, and enslave/execute everyone"


I dunno, the Mon Calamri seemed to have a sizable fleet. Alderaan also had a defense fleet, but it's only stated in sources outside the movies.

I think the problem is a lack of imagination on the part of the EU writers to see a galaxy that is bigger than just the Skywalkers or Solos and the few, backwoods planets shown in the OT.

QUOTE
The crystal thing came into effect from Lucas in the ebook Secret History of Star Wars. Originally the lightsaber had an energy pack, like a battery that was carried around with it. It had hoses and such, but Lucas scrapped the idea and wanted to add a more "mystical" effect to the film by incorporating crystals, some being in tune to the Force while others enhanced abilities. Before the Force was tainted by midichlorians, the power crystal aspect wasn't a hinderance to the stories. KotOR uses this and makes it work.


Yes the original movie adaption to SW showed lightsabres that had basket hilts and very small but very powerful energy sources. This concept was carried over somewhat in Splinter of the Mind's Eye, but the energy source of Luke's sabre needed recharging every now and then. Of course that book also used the idea of the Kyber Crystal (sp) that enhanced force abilities, which first showed up in early drafts for SW. I guess George just can't let any of his "wonderful" ideas go to waste and had to use crystals in SW somewhere.

I guess it's just aestetics, I prefer lightsabres that are technological weapons that can be used by anyone, but Jedi use them better than anyone else. Sort of like when Luke used proton tordedoes to destroy the Death Star, he was able to fire the warheads better than anyone else because he used the Force. Unfortunately Luke never seemed to use the Force when he was shooting his blaster at Stormtroopers... Leia was a much better aim, as of course, was Han and even Chewie.


Anyway, another gripe I had over the years was the constant technological improvement seen in the EU. Even my favorite SW computer game TIE Fighter is guilty of this, with the arms race of ever faster, better, more heavily armed starfighters. It's as if the Empire forgot that they needed more than just a bunch a TIE fighters and bombers and only started cranking out assault gunboats, and advanced TIEs in direct response to the Rebel threat. With the PT and associated Clone Wars material showing a fairly diverse and balanced starfighter fleet you would think that the Empire would plan things better than hoping one starfighter type (ln) and a few variants (rc, gt, fc) of that type could fill all the defense roles of a galactic armed force for close to 20 years.

Don't get me wrong, I love the TIE avenger and defender, but they were totally broken in those games. Too bad they make TIE fighters and even interceptors obsolete in what looks like a quantum leap of technology in just a few years. Sure, let's take a fighter that is surely heavier than the standard TIE fighter and add a hyperdrive, warhead launchers and beam weapons and still somehow cram in deflector shields that are more protective than those of some capital ships and then give them a speed rating 50% greater than the next fastest starfighter. Right. But it was a great game, and still my favorite.
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#4 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 05:51 PM

QUOTE (GrimmyV @ Sep 6 2008, 09:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the problem is a lack of imagination on the part of the EU writers to see a galaxy that is bigger than just the Skywalkers or Solos and the few, backwoods planets shown in the OT.


Well this answer sums up a lot of things about the whole PT. I'd also say "lack of imagination on the part of Lucas."

QUOTE (GrimmyV @ Sep 6 2008, 09:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I guess it's just aestetics, I prefer lightsabres that are technological weapons that can be used by anyone, but Jedi use them better than anyone else. Sort of like when Luke used proton tordedoes to destroy the Death Star, he was able to fire the warheads better than anyone else because he used the Force. Unfortunately Luke never seemed to use the Force when he was shooting his blaster at Stormtroopers... Leia was a much better aim, as of course, was Han and even Chewie.


Hmmm, if I recall correctly, wasn't there an incident where even Boba Fett pulled a yellow lightsaber on Vader and was able to hold him off quite well, even without the aid of the Force? I don't doubt anyones ability to use a saber, I mean, Luke even put a detonation device on his (green) saber in "Shadows of the Empire" just in case anyone tried to use it. Besides, Jedi use lightsabers better than anyone else because of their extensive training. Yeah, their training didn't seem to help them much on Geonosis or when Order 66 came about.


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#5 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 07:54 AM

I think part of the problem with the EU is in explaining things that don't necessarily need to be explained. To me that was always part of what separated Star Trek and Star Wars. Star Wars just said, "We're going into hyperspace." Star Trek had to say, "We can't achieve warp 10 because the dilithium crystals aren't modulating enough in the retroflux reactor. We'll need to hydrolocate the parsec drive with our electrodrag thrusters."

Things seem a lot less cool when you overexplain them. I felt more willing to accept lightsabers before they tried to explain the science behind it. I was willing to accept that they were just lightsabers. When they tried to explain how the crystal powers it and everything it seemed a lot less believable.

It would be like trying to explain the science behind the magic in Lord of the Rings. Can't we just accept that it's magic and leave it at that?
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#6 User is offline   Mr Pye Icon

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 04:24 PM

The force is another case. Midichlorians seems like what you'd call Star Trek talk. Back in the days the force was just there. Made from the same fibres as our imagination, our hopes and our fears, and as such available to anyone. But the real beauty about the force was that it played no part on its own. The force was never what events revolved around. Infact there was little done with the force that could not be done without it. Mostly just physical feats like strangulation, jumping, lifting things or adjusting the aim of a fighter. Instead the force with its good side and its dark side was used much as metaphor for human emotions and state of mind. It dealt with anger, with compassion, with grief, with friendship. All things that any of us could understand wether we knew anything about the force or not. And when even the disbelieveing Han Solo declares his friendship to Luke with the words may the force be with you, we all know exactly what he really said and what it means.

Well, it isn't as simple as that either, but I kind of miss the days when force was more of a belief and less of a science.


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#7 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 08:10 PM

Mr. Pye, you've just summed up what some of us have been arguing about for years!

Good stuff.


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#8 User is offline   HK 47 Icon

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Posted 09 September 2008 - 03:46 AM

QUOTE (Chefelf @ Sep 7 2008, 07:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It would be like trying to explain the science behind the magic in Lord of the Rings. Can't we just accept that it's magic and leave it at that?


I recall an old RPG magazine that tried to explain how dragons could breathe fire. "Well, they've got throats coated with blah blah blah". The readers rightly responded with ridicule. Star Wars has far more in common with fantasy epics than what it does with regular sci-fi. It's the setting that confuses people, even George apparently.

Mr Pyes post could be the best anti-midichlorian argument I've seen, well spoken sir! smile.gif

As for Grimmys original points:

1. Doesn't matter much, as long as there's no in-movie scientific explanation.

2. I think the reason is to show the empires indifference to life. Shield generators are expensive. They don't care how many tie fighters or pilots they lose, they got a billion more.

3. I didn't like the X-Wing iterations either. It would however have made sense to see brand new shiny x-wings as state-of-the-art fighters in the PT, later to be picked up by the alliance as the discontinued battle worn ships we all recognize.

4. It makes the empire look much more nazi. I have no problem with this, diversity is generally not encouraged in totalitarian structures. Also a matter of practicality probably.

5. Yeah, I agree. Though I would have loved to see a tech savvy Jawa sidekick rather than an artoo unit in the PT smile.gif

This post has been edited by HK 47: 09 September 2008 - 04:02 AM

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#9 User is offline   njamilla Icon

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Posted 17 September 2008 - 07:42 AM

Totally agree with the lightsaber crystals critique. Lame. Totally agree that lightsaber skills come from training. Midi-chlorians just complicated the Force unnecessarily, and it shows how GL's ideas developed with each film instead of originating with a more solid core concept.

Leland Chee [keeper of the official SW database], in a post to a Wired story on the Clone Wars movie, said it's his job to "explain the consistencies to make them cohesive", i.e. Retcon. Instead of saying that the heroes don't get shot in the OT, Chee says the degredation of clone marksmanship is due to the fact that not all stormtroopers are clones. Source: http://blog.wired.co...se-a-distu.html

It's hit or miss with LFL. I suppose a lot of it has to do with the corporate culture that has developed. Secrets of the Shadow of the Empire shows the process of media all chiming in for their piece of the pie - a story arc made by committee. Something GL complained about Hollywood.

On the one hand, people like Curtis Saxton and Terryl Whitlatch bring in an academic macro perspective. One the other, writers who only have limited exposure to fantasy and comic books create silly and fantastic story arcs. It doesn't matter the genre, but writing with a solid foundation in philosophy, science, and economics will always be superior to a storyline pulled out of someone's ass.

I'm not keen on Karen Traviss's macho style in her clone trooper books, but at least she's tried to create a consistent Mando culture. The EU on the Jedi is all over the place because GL never explained the origins of the Jedi.


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#10 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 10:16 AM

I read the article about Leland Chee in the latest Wired. While I think it is necessary for a universe as huge as Star Wars to have such a database to keep aspects consistent and certain continuities intact, it does go too far in some respects (e.g. explaining how lightsabers work). Dorks everywhere will always postulate on how they work. Just let them have their fun.

Lightsabers are not possible. I feel comfortable saying I will never see a functional lightsaber in my lifetime. That's fine. Just have them there. If you try to explain how it works with made up science it will look like crappy made up science and completely kill all the fun.

HK 47 (good to see you around!) brought up a perfect point. Just accept that dragons breathe fire in a given universe. Don't try to explain how they do it.
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#11 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 04:28 PM

QUOTE (Chefelf @ Sep 18 2008, 03:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I read the article about Leland Chee in the latest Wired. While I think it is necessary for a universe as huge as Star Wars to have such a database to keep aspects consistent and certain continuities intact, it does go too far in some respects (e.g. explaining how lightsabers work). Dorks everywhere will always postulate on how they work. Just let them have their fun.

Lightsabers are not possible. I feel comfortable saying I will never see a functional lightsaber in my lifetime. That's fine. Just have them there. If you try to explain how it works with made up science it will look like crappy made up science and completely kill all the fun.

This is precisely why I hate fanwank so much. Not only is it almost never convincing, but every attempt to explain away these unrealistic elements just ends up raising a dozen more questions. I would never have worried about stuff like (for example) the PT technology being so much more advanced than the OT, if it weren't for the legions of over-zealous fans coming up with bullshit 'explanations' for it. I'd honestly have a whole lot more respect for Lucas if he would just say, "Look, the new films were made in the 90s as opposed to the 70s, so of course they're going to look more advanced. Suck it up."
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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