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Clone Wars Movie Premiers AP says "Fun though forgettable"

#16 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 02:16 AM

QUOTE (Vesuvius @ Aug 16 2008, 09:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But in all seriousness, I couldn't agree with you more. This is the same thing that had me watching and rewatching EP IV-VI on the weekends of my teen years. SW made me want more great story telling, more Force mysticism, and more characters that I can't get tired of.

The comments about Lucas dislike of Kershner's "character-driven" movie says a lot.

QUOTE (georgelucas4greedo @ Aug 16 2008, 04:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I read a review today about the lack of character development, how action was just thrust upon the audience in every minute. It made me think of ANH and just how slow it actually was at times. Like most people, I enjoyed the slow pace, because the development (both character and universe) was the intriguing part. That is what sucked us in.

Useful comments. I'm trying to understand what makes a good movie good and a bad movie bad. That's a good point re: the pacing. If "Empire" was 2 hours and 15 minutes of fighting on Hoth, we would have grown numb to it. Instead we had an intense 14 minutes that left us gasping for air. Character development seems essential. Without it, we have no emotional attachment to the characters before us.

Sure a big clone versus robot battle looks visually spectacular the first time you see it, but these days huge battle scenes are a dime a dozen. Have them by all means if the story demands it, but you need to *CARE* about the outcome. It's the difference between Jackson's Siege of Minas Tirith in LOTR and Lucas umpeenth rendering of a Clone War (with all new Shaders!).

QUOTE
kids and adults do not want to replay or reimagine the same battle they saw in the film, they want enough interesting characters and an endless canvass on which to project the expansive creative nature of the mind.

This is the crazy part. He's got a universe of possibilities, including good back stories by real authors. Instead he ignores that, and tells the same story again. Some of the reviews said "Don't Panic! George Lucas is not credited here!" but the script writer said Lucas got excited about this CGI series and took a bigger and bigger role.

Here's an interview with Lucas by TV Guide, published September 2007. Seems by this, and what we've heard in the reviews, he wasn't sure exactly what he was making. He talks about putting it on the Sci-Fi channel after 9PM due to its violence. Yet it lands on the Cartoon Network, with Ahsoka Binks and Stinky the Hutt.

QUOTE
George Lucas: There's Clone Wars, and we're in the middle of that.

TV Guide: Tell us about it.
Lucas: Well it's basically like Star Wars [in that it] takes place between, obviously, [the films] Episode II [Attack of the Clones] and Episode III [Revenge of the Sith], but it's the same kind of action. Unfortunately, it doesn't fall into the realm of what animation [typically] is, which is either adult, kind of off-color humor or kiddie stuff. This is, like Star Wars, sort of in between those two things. It's a lot of battle stuff, and it's obviously the Clone Wars, so it's a war picture. So it's kind of a PG-13 animated TV series, which is something that has never been done before and obviously doesn't fit in any of the conventional slots that these things fall into. In that, it's very different, and I think it's very exciting. It's got a very, very sophisticated look to it. It's very much like the features. We're still trying to figure out how to put it on the air.

TV Guide: And you're going to do a hundred episodes?
Lucas: We're going to do a hundred episodes. I think we're on [No.] 40 right now. We'll probably end up with 50 to 60 episodes before we start to put it on the air. We'd like to put it on next fall, in about a year from now, but we'll see what happens.

TV Guide: Where do you see it living? How do you see this playing? Obviously it doesn't sound like a Saturday morning cartoon.
Lucas: Right now, we don't know. It's out there to people, and people are talking about it, but so far, everybody's got the same conundrums — "How do we program it? Where does it live? Where can we put something like this?" You know, it has to go after 9 o'clock and it can't be on a kiddie channel.

TV Guide: So you see it on a more mainstream channel or the Sci Fi Channel or something like that?
Lucas: Well, it's one of those things. Television is sort of bifurcated up into small niches and unless you fit in one of those niches, no one knows what to do with you. And, of course, I'm always outside the box, so it's like, "Uh-oh, we don't have a box for you." [Laughs] But it's Star Wars and it's really good, so I'm sure somehow or another, people will also start thinking outside the box and it will find its home.

http://www.tvguide.c...rs-TV/070920-01
http://www.tvguide.c...erick/070918-01


How much more crap will people take? It's amazing how much time we have for Star Wars, even if that takes the form of bitching. I goes to that childhood-sweet-heart-turns-into-a-crack-whore analogy. But everyone has their limit: I watched an anime series called "Hack Sign" set no less in a MMO universe. It was a financial and critical success and I was really impressed by it, so when the sequels came out I bought the DVDs blind. They had made one kiddie sequel, "Legend of the Twilight" I think, that hugely sucked. (Anyone want to buy second hand DVDs? Watched once?) They made a few others I tried watching but never finished - they became pretentious, repetitive and dull. These days I ignore anything with the Hack logo...

Lucas said he doesn't listen to reviewers or listen to internet buzz (suck eggs, Lewinski). He measures success by how much cash he makes. Now Lucas made lots of money out of the PT. But will he reach a point with these where people won't watch them, even if they're on TV, for free? I haven't seen the Clone Wars movie personally, so I can't say for absolute sure it sucks, but the negative reviews for this thing sets a new record. "Revenge of the Sith", despite its faults and continued fan boy anger, still got reasonable reviews (as in, "it's okay to see this for closure"). Rotten Tomatoes (which amalgamates critics ratings) gave ROTS 80% which seems generous to me, but the Clone Wars Movie gets only 18%(!) Lucas says he financed the series on the assumption someone would buy them, but if it's as bad as its sounding I just hope Lucas loses a ton of money this time. A financial loss and flagging toy sales might beat some sense into him.

http://uk.rottentoma...m/m/clone_wars/

But he's the master of revisionism:

QUOTE
I mean, even when I did the very first Star Wars, I was doing it, and I had three of them, and I assumed that the (first) film wouldn't be successful, and I assumed that I would have to somehow struggle very hard to get the other two made. But my job was to get all three of them made, you know, and that's why I took the sequel rights and everything because I didn't want anybody else to control that because I wanted to control that. And the assumption was if (the first one) didn't make any money, the studio would just sit on it and it'd just make it that much harder for me (to make the rest). ... My whole point of view was that I went out to make a movie, and it was called, basically, "The Tragedy of Darth Vader." And it was one movie, and then it got too long and too expensive, and so I cut it into three movies. But then I made a vow at that point and said I'm not going to let these sit on the shelf. I'm going to get these made somehow. No matter what, no matter what it takes, I'm going to get them done. And it's not because I wanted to do sequels — it was because I wanted to see this thing be finished, and so I did everything I could to try to ensure that I could get to do that.

http://www.tvguide.c...rs-TV/070920-01

LOLWOT!?

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 16 August 2008 - 02:30 AM

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#17 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 02:41 PM

QUOTE (Toru-chan @ Aug 16 2008, 03:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here's an interview with Lucas by TV Guide, published September 2007. Seems by this, and what we've heard in the reviews, he wasn't sure exactly what he was making. He talks about putting it on the Sci-Fi channel after 9PM due to its violence. Yet it lands on the Cartoon Network, with Ahsoka Binks and Stinky the Hutt.


Lucas' indecisiveness is similar to that of Nintendo's. Nintendo will say that their next new system will be all "hardcore" and have some really "bad@ss" games on it geared for mature audiences, and when the console comes out, they'll have like two mature titles, and the rest is "Elmo Bowling*," "Yoshi's Carwash*," and childish games about doing chores in a simulated environment... (also known as Animal Crossing) Now Lucas says how mature he wants the CW to be, then gears it right back to kids on the Cartoon Network!

QUOTE (Toru-chan @ Aug 16 2008, 03:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lucas said he doesn't listen to reviewers or listen to internet buzz (suck eggs, Lewinski). He measures success by how much cash he makes. Now Lucas made lots of money out of the PT. But will he reach a point with these where people won't watch them, even if they're on TV, for free?


What a one sided way of looking at things, Lucas. Of course he's going to pull cash, it's Star Wars! People are expecting a miracle here, or Lucas turning back to the old days... but these things won't happen, people will go to see it, no matter their contempt, and Lucas still wins.

QUOTE (Toru-chan @ Aug 16 2008, 03:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
...but the Clone Wars Movie gets only 18%(!)


Ha ha ha haaaaa! Now Lucas has to hear about this somewhere from someone. There's no way he can avoid this one. He can only ignore it (which is what he'll do).

QUOTE (Toru-chan @ Aug 16 2008, 03:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lucas says he financed the series on the assumption someone would buy them, but if it's as bad as its sounding I just hope Lucas loses a ton of money this time. A financial loss and flagging toy sales might beat some sense into him.


True. And the only way to make him lose money is if people pay attention to the reviews, forget seeing the film out of "closure," and accept the fact that SW films are nothing more than a giant sales pitch. Honestly, if I don't see the film (or I hate it), I won't have any inclination to buy the merchandise. I fell for the "closure" tag before and I didn't like EP III. I was not going to see it, but that "closure" thing popped up. (Heh heh heh, I stabbed that b*tch in the neck... "closure" don't come around here no more, kid.)


*The above said games are purely fictional to convey a message of Nintendo's ability to sell consoles to mature gamers only to be let down by titles for five year olds.
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#18 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 09:33 PM

One of Lucas huge failings is since "Empire", he has taken to surrounding himself with fanboys and sniveling yes-men. Take Dave Filoni. The more I hear and see of this guy, the more I'm convinced he's an idiot. Here is his reasoning for the addition of Ashoka "Disney Brat" Tano:

QUOTE
"In the end, Anakin has a Padawan to teach him about attachments. Yoda and the Jedi Council are hoping that by having an attachement to a pupil, much like Anakin had an attachment to his mother, that Anakin will one day learn as Ashoka grows and becomes more powerful and to be strong on her own and learns that she can become more independent that he can learn to let her go. This is something that Anakin has to learn, because he's attached to his mother, he's very attached to these droids that he has. He has an attachment and an afinity for a certain Senator that he's met. Even to his own master Obi-won Kenobi he displays quite a lot of attachment. That makes it dangerous, because the Jedi have to be aware of the jeopardy the chosen one has and when Anakin learns to let this student go he will become a Jedi master."

Dave Filoni, Director, The Clone Wars quoted on TV Guide Promotional CD-ROM.


1. This is just extremely stupid reasoning.
2. Not only that, but Filoni was proud enough of this idiotic rambling to include it on the TV Guide CD-ROM(!)
3. Wearning a hat everywhere doesn't fool anyone about his male pattern baldness nor does it make him look like Indiana Jones.
4. Everything we've heard about Clone Wars suggests major fail. As a Director, seems this guy stinks.


"Just getting to meet George Lucas was pretty amazing, and then working with him and getting to be part of this process ... it's a great responsibility. I feel like my job is to bring his universe to the screen and make sure it lives up to the standards he's set."

Can you imagine this guy having the balls to tell Lucas, who is frequently wrong, that he's wrong about something?

QUOTE (Vesuvius @ Aug 17 2008, 05:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What a one sided way of looking at things, Lucas. Of course he's going to pull cash, it's Star Wars! People are expecting a miracle here, or Lucas turning back to the old days... but these things won't happen, people will go to see it, no matter their contempt, and Lucas still wins.

This is the $64M question: "Can George Lucas make a film bad enough that no one will see it?" He's already sold it to the Cartoon Network, supposedly 22 of the 40 plus episodes he's already made. I can't find what Cartoon Network paid him, but whatever the amount that check would be banked. He's also got cashflow from his Hasbro deal. Hasbro have punished Lucas in the past by $85M when his PT didn't generate the toy sales they were expecting. If the toys don't fly off the shelves, he's in trouble.

If it had "quietly" debuted on TV, he may have got away with it, but trying to make extra bucks by putting it in cinemas may backfire. The Clone Wars TV Guide CD-ROM has shorts with lines like this: "Stay close to me... if you can" That could be the worst voice acting... ever! And even diehard fanboys like Harry Knowles said it stinks. From what I've seen, pretty CGI is one thing, but with dialog as bad as I've seen on the trailer and TV Guide CD-ROM, this thing may actually be so bad that people TURN IT OFF. If that happens, and Cartoon Network lose their money, that'll be the end of it. It's happened before. People stopped watching "Young Indiana Jones." With Clone Wars, Lucas' Ego may have finally written a check this talent can't cash

We've got the Live Action series on the way too. The disheartening thing about Clone Wars, is it shows that Lucas hasn't learned anything from the PT disaster. He still doesn't get it and he's as arrogant as hell. His bank balance can afford to write off a TV series that bombs, but his ego can't. A financial failure is the only thing that will wake him up. Knowing Lucas, even if it does bomb, he'll find a way to blame his "fans".

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 16 August 2008 - 09:46 PM

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#19 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 07:57 PM

Okay, everything Dave Filoni just said was pure BS.

"He has an attachment and an afinity for a certain Senator that he's met."
Well he did marry her, dolt!

"Anakin will one day learn as Ashoka grows and becomes more powerful and to be strong on her own and learns that she can become more independent that he can learn to let her go."
Well he let her go really well if we didn't hear jack about her in EPIII!

"This is something that Anakin has to learn, because he's attached to his mother, he's very attached to these droids that he has."
No he isn't, his mother is sandworm food! He stopped thinking about her when Padme winked, showed him some 'tude and took him to Geonosis to save Obi-wan. He forgot her completely. Anakin isn't attached to the droids he has at all! Look at how he ditched 3PO with his mom in EPI. Then, look at how no one came to pick up the droids after the arena battle in EPII. That's not attachment, it's neglect!

"That makes it dangerous, because the Jedi have to be aware of the jeopardy the chosen one has and when Anakin learns to let this student go he will become a Jedi master."
More BS! He's not the "chosen one" because Mace Windu says, "DO NOT WANT!" and Yoda seems to agree! "The Chosen One" was a prophecy misread, and a hunch by Qui-gon. And Anakin never becomes a Jedi Master, he's only allowed on the council, but gets whiney with Obi-wan because he's not a master. Did this guy even see the movies?!

"Even to his own master Obi-won Kenobi he displays quite a lot of attachment."
The final Lie! Again, no he doesn't. He's saved Kenobi in those awefull chummy scenes where Anakin brags about it, like the "nest of gundarks," and carrying Obi-wan off the ship with Palps. It's not attachment, it's common sense to save your only Jedi partner.


This is sick because I'm actually defending a crumby character that doesn't need defending. All thanks to this "director" who appearantly hasn't seen or let alone understood anything that the convoluted PT gave us. It's a shame that this guy actually makes me want to defend events and characters in an already messed up story.

*Edited coarse expletives*

This post has been edited by Vesuvius: 17 August 2008 - 08:01 PM

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#20 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 11:59 PM

I am told that the heroine calls Anakin "Sky guy" at some point. I just cannot fathom how Darth Vader lives with memories like that in his brain. I mean, wouldnt his helmet just implode whenever someone who knew him back then mentions shit like this to him?

"Hey Lord Vader, remember when you asked that chick if she was an angel? GAH FUCK why with the force choking?"

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#21 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 03:57 AM

LMAO at MTV's Wrap-up of the reviews:

QUOTE
A seemingly long time ago, in a land far, far away, George Lucas could do no wrong. His "Star Wars" films were nearly universally hailed, each achieving unprecedented commercial success. But what about his latest effort, "Star Wars: The Clone Wars"? We have a bad feeling about this, if critics across the Internet are to be believed. ...

"After meeting Ahsoka ... we really understand why he killed all the younglings. I'd have done it with my bare hands." Devin Faraci wrote on CHUD.com. http://chud.com/arti...WARS/Page1.html

"This is the first feature-length animated "Star Wars" movie, but instead of pushing the state of the art, it's retro. You'd think the great animated films of recent years had never been made. The characters have hair that looks molded from Play-Doh, bodies that seem arthritic, and moving lips on half-frozen faces -- all signs that shortcuts were taken in the animation work." says Roger Ebert. http://rogerebert.su.../808140301/1023

http://www.mtv.com/m...942/story.jhtml


Ebert raises a good point. Lucas and Failoni said they went with the jerky animation to pay homage to the 'Thunderbird'-style of marionettes. But could cost have been the real reason? I've done some 3DSMAX and if you're doing *good* animation it's real hard work. But if you're doing the sort of bouncing crap that these guys are doing, it's much, much quicker.

Lucas says publicly he doesn't listen to reviewers or Internet Buzz, but here are some words which should wake him up and get Failoni nervousing scanning the job classifieds:

QUOTE
"We saw this in a theater full of kids, and there wasn't a single moment that caused spontaneous cheering," echoed Chris Farnsworth of E! http://www.eonline.c...84-ac8152174526

http://www.mtv.com/m...942/story.jhtml


Ouch! If the kids don't go for this, then the Cartoon TV Network might just as well have bought a season of filler and worse HASBRO are going to be very, very angry. Amazing, really. Lucas, arrogant bastard that he is, listened to no one and went on to produce a movie that got a WORSE reception than the Phantom Menace.

QUOTE (Vesuvius @ Aug 18 2008, 10:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All thanks to this "director" who appearantly hasn't seen or let alone understood anything that the convoluted PT gave us. It's a shame that this guy actually makes me want to defend events and characters in an already messed up story.

Filoni is Fail ==> Failoni. His comments are just bizarre. He make no sense. But this is the guy who have us in whole or in part a Gay Jabba the Hutt, "Stinky" and "Sky Guy". The only place Filoni will have fans is at force.bedwet.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 18 2008, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am told that the heroine calls Anakin "Sky guy" at some point. I just cannot fathom how Darth Vader lives with memories like that in his brain.

LOL.
Darth Vader: Bring My Shuttle!
Stormtrooper #1: Sky Guy wants his Shuttle. Pass it on.
Stormtroopers: (chortle chortle chortle)
Commander: You! Trooper! I'll have no insubordination in the ranks!
Darth Vader: Thank you, Commander.
Commander: Not at all, M'lord. Now meesa will order your shuttle personally.
Stormtroopers: (raucous laughter)

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 18 August 2008 - 03:58 AM

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#22 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 12:39 PM

QUOTE (Toru-chan @ Aug 18 2008, 04:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Darth Vader: Bring My Shuttle!
Stormtrooper #1: Sky Guy wants his Shuttle. Pass it on.
Stormtroopers: (chortle chortle chortle)
Commander: You! Trooper! I'll have no insubordination in the ranks!
Darth Vader: Thank you, Commander.
Commander: Not at all, M'lord. Now meesa will order your shuttle personally.
Stormtroopers: (raucous laughter)


Ha ha haaa! Nice,

Vader: *whips out lightsaber, cut's them all down.*
Vader: (Calls stardestroyer himself) Bring my shuttle.
Deck Officer: What? "Sky Guy" can't fly himself here?
Admiral: (snorts with laughter)
Vader: *Force Chokes both of them from Bespin*


This is a shame, they've made the supposed tragic hero a laughing stock. It was bad enough to keep calling him "Annie," especially when Padme' does it after not seeing him for 10 years. They keep giving him silly names, and acting like he's the all around lovable buddy. If young Anikan knew that being a Jedi was going to be this demeaning, I'd think he'd rather stay home as a slave.

However, I do enjoy the venom that these critics are giving the film. Hopefully enough bad news can circulate and no one will see this bile, and maybe Lucas will learn his lesson.
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Posted 18 August 2008 - 01:52 PM

It's currently pulling a whopping 18% on Rotten Tomatoes. Some of my favorite review blurbs:

"Heaven knows why Star Wars creator George Lucas thought this worthy of a cinema release. It is an amateurishly written, inadequately animated, tenth-rate rip-off."
-Christopher Tookey
Daily Mail [UK]

"The latest installment of George Lucas’s interminable franchise, Star Wars: The Clone Wars, has the charm of a cash machine. This noisy animated feature is set in a galaxy that isn’t far away enough."
-James Christopher
Times [UK]

"George Lucas's fixation on this saga has gone past commercial smarts into full-blown monomania. With all the money and power he has at his disposal, here he is once again fobbing the same leaden dialogue and nonvisionary visuals at us."
-Peter Rainer
Christian Science Monitor

"Instead of making a splash in the summer of Batman, WALL-E and ABBA, 'Clone Wars' is just the latest drop of anemic blood squeezed from the petrifying husk of a once innovative science-fiction franchise."
-John Beifuss
Commercial Appeal (Memphis, TN)

Well done Lucas, well done. Scooby Doo 2: Monsters Unleashed got better reviews than this turkey. How sad that a series as legendary as Star Wars has sunk so low.


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#24 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 09:28 PM

The US Box Office figures are in. Clone Wars ranked third, pulling a rounded-up $15M just behind Dark Night ($16M) and waaaaay behind Tropic Thunder ($26M). Clone Wars actually opened in *more* cinemas than Tropic Thunder, but made less.

1. "Tropic Thunder," Paramount, $25,812,796, 3,319 locations, $7,777 average, $36,845,588, one week.
2. "The Dark Knight," Warner Bros., $16,379,293, 3,590 locations, $4,562 average, $471,082,150, five weeks.
3. "Star Wars: The Clone Wars," Warner Bros., $14,611,273, 3,452 locations, $4,233 average, $14,611,273, one week.
http://www.accessatl...Box_Office.html
http://www.comingsoo...ws.php?id=48043

$6M of Clone War's $15M was on the opening day, which doesn't bode well for the next few weeks... Warner Bros. pooh-poohed all this, saying all they set out to publicize the TV series and that mission has been accomplished. Yeah right. Sure they were dancing on the tables at Warner Bros. Despite Lucas' public nonchallance, I think these results will have LucasFilm worried. If the film was a runwaway success they could ignore the negative feedback. But when a ship is sinking, it floods one hold at a time.

Question is now how quickly it'll leave the cineplex. It'll be on TV soon, so even fanboys may decide to sit it out. Even once it makes it to TV, I wonder how fast kids will tire week-after-week watching the final battle from AOTC but with worse CGI. All this crap about it being a kids movie. Pixar's "Toy Story" and "Monsters" were kids movies that adults loved. Same with the original "Star Wars" for that matter!

QUOTE
For instance, to draw a comparison to Lucas 1977 and Lucas 2005, imagine Luke returning to the homestead to discover it set ablaze and his aunt and uncle's skeletons strewn on the ground; Luke watches it with sadness and John Williams' music is sweeping us away--and then Luke arches back and cries out "NOOOooooooo" before the scene irises out.

http://secrethistory...fthebeast1.html

True. True.

BTW Michael Kaminski has announced a publishing deal for his "Secret History of Star Wars". I'll miss the site - but thank him for these sort of insights:

Lucas thinks he's a film artist, but he's far more of a producer. His early films, the good ones, were collaborative works. Not just Kershner, Kurtz, Macquarie, Williams, Burtt and Marcia, but also a horde of California-based film makers who collaborated on each others projects. Although only Lucas' name is on the Star Wars script, all these people had input. Yet Lucas, arrogant bastard that he is, walked away from all this thinking it was he did it.

QUOTE
(Lucas) expanded (his initial Star Wars) into a rough draft screenplay and showed it to his friends--most of them found it poor in character and confusing in plot, so Lucas changed it once again, writing himself into the second draft as Luke Starkiller, giving a much more identifiable character, but again the script was lacking. These drafts, which were entirely the product of Lucas, were poorly written and not very good scripts--characters were flat and stilted, the dialog was laughable, and the plots confusing and often lacking in drama, though they showed tremendous imagination; very much like the prequels. However, starting here, Lucas himself began to have less of a direct influence. His friends gave input, told him what characters worked, what characters didn't work, where the story needed to be improved and how to make the script more engaging; this collaborative aspect should not be underestimated in the least--it was an integral element of the scripting process of Star Wars . Instead of having co-writers, Lucas would act as a filter, taking the suggestions but then writing the words himself so that he could make the script the way he envisioned it.

... This circle of filmmakers included Francis Ford Coppola, Walter Murch, Matthew Robbins, Hal Barwood, Steven Spielberg, Marcia Lucas, Brian DePalma, Martin Scorsese, John Milius, Gloria Katz, Willard Huyck and more, and they all acted as a sort of filmmaking dream team— every project one of them did was aided by the rest, and all of the above were also writers who at some point had all worked on one anothers scripts ... After each version I had a discussion with those friends If there was a good scene in the first version, I included it in the second. And so on...the script was constructed this way, scene by scene." Marcia also kept Lucas in check by reminding him of the fundamental emotional resonance needed for a screenplay, in contrast to Lucas' more technical interest.

http://secrethistory...fthebeast1.html
http://secrethistoryofstarwars.com

For example, here's something you didn't know. "IT IS A PERIOD OF CIVIL WAR. REBEL SPACESHIPS FIGHTING FROM A HIDDEN BASE HAVE WON THEIR FIRST VICTORY AGAINST THE EVIL GALACTIC EMPIRE." Lucas at his best? No. These words were written by Brian DePalma (Yes, *THAT* Brian DePalma) with Time Magazine critic Jay Cocks(!) Even for "American Graffiti" which established him, Huyck rewrote the dialog. Lucas: "The scenes are mine, the dialog is theirs."

QUOTE
Lucas hired a drama coach, set up the cameras and let the actors run the scenes and improvise--having casted perfectly, the result was actors simply being the characters, and with a script based on Lucas' own life it came off as a wonderfully real and believable film.

http://secrethistory...fthebeast1.html


People: This is it! Lucas' successful films were collaborative efforts. Lucas was never more than a producer. Trouble was he never realised that. He thought he was the creative force behind them. Oh the irony, because Lucas opposes colorization which puts the owners rights before the artists. Yet here he is doing the CGI equivalent with these films which he owns but other artists made.

http://www.obsessedw...e-star-wars.php
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#25 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 11:46 PM

Okay, I've been reading SHoSW as well, and I too have noticed that Lucas is pure imagination and production, not diologue, emotion, etc. But I wonder, who did Lucas collaborate with on this Clone Wars film? If it's really as bad as the reviews say, I'm thinking that Lucas got no help from anyone, drew out a "story" and Failoni animated it.

Also notice, Failoni had Ziro the Hutt speaking Huttese and it was Lucas' idea to urinate all over that. I'm thinking that somewhere in all of this, that there probably was an okay film in the making, but Lucas used Failoni like a total sock-puppet and made this movie utterly horrible.

With the PT, we know that Lucas did just about everything for those films himself, and it shows. However, there are some scenes worth watching in all that mess. I would like to know what was the biggest mistake that lead the CW film into this current of flaming pit.

This must have been not only a rushed job, but Lucas' pure excitement in not having actors at all and thinking that "well it's a cartoon and you can get away with a lot more in them." No, wait a minute, Lucas took so much from Japanese Cinema to craft out SW. Why didn't he study films and comics such as AKIRA, Ghost in the Shell, and Ninja Scroll? These three staple films could have given him better ideas on fleshing out character, story, action, and relationships.
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Posted 19 August 2008 - 12:28 AM

The Clone Wars writers said in a PR piece that Lucas was initially just approving concepts, but when he got excited he inserted himself into the process. But as for Ashoka Tano, Wookiepedia blames Failoni, writer Henry Gilroy and producer Catherine Winder:

QUOTE
Star Wars: The Clone Wars supervising director Dave Filoni and writer Henry Gilroy initially had the idea for a female character for the series, and the idea was ultimately approved by creator/executive producer George Lucas. http://starwars.wiki...iki/Ahsoka_Tano

JN: Whose idea was it to give Anakin an apprentice – it’s quite a weird thing for someone who isn’t yet fully qualified as a Jedi to have an apprentice.
DF: Right, definitely. That’s all George, right there. Henry Gilroy and I threw round the idea and talked to Catherine about having a young girl Jedi in the series, and George really took that and said “ok, well I always really wanted Anakin to have a padawan”. It’s one of the things he wanted to do but didn’t have time to develop. That’s where it came from. And much like everyone else, Henry and I were like, really, wow, that’s different but then he started to explain it and we were like, well that’s gonna work great. http://www.jedinews....spx?newsID=1216


Failoni isn't just a CGI Drone faithfully following orders. He's part of the problem. He'll also be writing the the Clone Wars monthly comic. I hope at least his mom buys it.

QUOTE (Vesuvius @ Aug 19 2008, 02:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Okay, I've been reading SHoSW as well, and I too have noticed that Lucas is pure imagination and production, not diologue, emotion, etc. (TRUE TRUE) But I wonder, who did Lucas collaborate with on this Clone Wars film? If it's really as bad as the reviews say, I'm thinking that Lucas got no help from anyone, drew out a "story" and Failoni animated it.

These days Lucas only hires people that think like him, which explains a lot. But from what I'm reading Failoni is up to his neck in it. No one has yet claimed responsibility for Baby "Punky Muffin" Jabba, Gay Jabba and the fart jokes, I'd love to know whose idea that was...

QUOTE
With the PT, we know that Lucas did just about everything for those films himself, and it shows. However, there are some scenes worth watching in all that mess. I would like to know what was the biggest mistake that lead the CW film into this current of flaming pit.

Someone said Lucas is good with visuals and I have to agree even the PT included some impressive imagery. But he totally sucks with everything else. Even as a producer. He needs to hire people who make up for his own shortcomings, instead of talentless failbags who compound it.

As Clint would say, "A man has to know his limitations..."

QUOTE
This must have been not only a rushed job, but Lucas' pure excitement in not having actors at all and thinking that "well it's a cartoon and you can get away with a lot more in them." No, wait a minute, Lucas took so much from Japanese Cinema to craft out SW. Why didn't he study films and comics such as AKIRA, Ghost in the Shell, and Ninja Scroll? These three staple films could have given him better ideas on fleshing out character, story, action, and relationships.

Yeah... I'm wondering the same thing. This guy, with millions of dollars to throw around, doesn't even take the time to get a basic story down. As for the young female Jedi thing. Bah. Japanese Manga and Anime know to pitch their stories at their target audience. They have Shonen - boys manga, and Shojo - girls manga. I'm not aware of any Shonen Manga deluded enough to think throwing in a smart-mouthed Bratz thing would suddenly make Star Wars a transgender marketing property.

I'm tempted to call up HASBRO and say "Hey! How much did you pay George Lucas for marketing rights? Half a billion wasn't it? HAHAHAHAHAHHA". And man I'd hate to be the Cartoon TV Network that signed the order for this one.

As for Failoni...

QUOTE

34 year-old Dave Filoni was thrilled when he learned that he was being given the opportunity to work for the man who absolutely and completely ruined his already pathetic childhood. “A lot of men grow up, graduate high school, get a degree, and then go to work for their dad, eventually taking over the family business,” Filoni said. “But I actually get to be on the payroll of the man who not only gave me my childhood, but then proceeded to ruin it by putting out three consecutively crappy movies that made the original Star Wars series null and void, and therefore negated everything I’ve ever cared about.”

When asked why he was actually excited about working for George Lucas, Filoni replied, “Cause I have no idea what I’m doing, as a director, I mean, I’m a schleb. And now I get to turn the tables and get revenge on a man who once gave me a purpose, gave me something to believe in [presumably, the force], and then took it away by creating a silly childlike mumble mouth and letting Samuel L. Jackson ham it up in space.”

By all accounts, including Filoni’s, “The Clone Wars” sucks. And that couldn’t make the amateur director happier. “I mean, if you all got to get wasted and beat your dad with a belt after all these years, wouldn’t you be excited too? I’ve been a dork my whole life and as I became an adult, I learned it was all for naught and I actually should have been out there doing stuff. But now, with ‘The Clone Wars,’ I get to fuck something up of his. And that makes me a true Jedi Knight. As if I even care anymore,” says Filoni.

http://livingboy.wor...venge-on-lucas/

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 19 August 2008 - 12:42 AM

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#27 User is offline   Phoenix Icon

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 01:43 AM

Please for the love of God, George Lucas, you need to stop making movies and retire (or die). You ruined four perfectly good movies (Star Wars 4,5,6 and Raiders of the Lost Ark) with more bad-horrible movies than i care to count.

Owned

This post has been edited by Phoenix: 19 August 2008 - 01:44 AM

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#28 User is offline   HK 47 Icon

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 07:03 AM

QUOTE
Someone said Lucas is good with visuals and I have to agree even the PT included some impressive imagery.


I doubt even that. I think someone is trying to be nice to George in that regard. Ralph McQuarrie is good with visuals. So are many of the concept designers who worked on the PT. All George does is walk into a room and point at the stuff he fancies for the moment. If you have a wall full of top of the line concept art, it's hard to go wrong. Something George manages however...

Look at the PTs visual concepts for a second and tell me again that they are imaginative and impressive. The Clonetroopers are a Fett/Stormtrooper morph. The ships are morphs. Show me anything in the PT that measures up to designs like the TIE fighters or X-wings. I would argue that it lacks imagination, rather than the opposite. That ILM manages to put it all together in a very impressive display of dazzling fireworks has *nothing* to do with Lucas "being good with visuals"...

Anyway thanks for summarizing everything Toru-chan. It's a very enjoyable read, especially the last Filoni part smile.gif

This post has been edited by HK 47: 19 August 2008 - 07:09 AM

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#29 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 02:33 PM

QUOTE (Toru-chan @ Aug 19 2008, 01:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Failoni isn't just a CGI Drone faithfully following orders. He's part of the problem. He'll also be writing the the Clone Wars monthly comic. I hope at least his mom buys it.

I'm tempted to call up HASBRO and say "Hey! How much did you pay George Lucas for marketing rights? Half a billion wasn't it? HAHAHAHAHAHHA". And man I'd hate to be the Cartoon TV Network that signed the order for this one.


laugh.gif laugh.gif Alright, a lot of what you wrote was funny! I was almost out of my chair on some of this stuff. Nice job.

But for that Filoni part,

"But now, with ‘The Clone Wars,’ I get to f*ck something up of his. And that makes me a true Jedi Knight. As if I even care anymore,” says Filoni."

Wait a minute! First off, to have this kind of animosity, he's more Sith than anything. Besides, his "as if I even care" remark, well obviosly he does care! He cares too much to compare Lucas to his deadbeat dad. I'm sensing some deeper unresolved issues here, and this isn't so much about SW as it's something that we don't need to know about.

"Filoni replied, “Cause I have no idea what I’m doing, as a director, I mean, I’m a schleb. And now I get to turn the tables and get revenge on a man who once gave me a purpose, gave me something to believe in [presumably, the force], and then took it away by creating a silly childlike mumble mouth and letting Samuel L. Jackson ham it up in space.”

Okaaaayyyy, so if you're a "schleb," then why did you say yes to directing the film? The only possible way to get back at Lucas is to deny him money, flannel, and Ben & Jerry's brand icecream confections. You can't get revenge on Lucas when he tells you to mess everything up. This man must surely know that it is difficult the sh*t the sh*tter!

And what did Sam L. Jackson do wrong?! Granted he was a little stiff with the saber, but I didn't have any problems with him acting, his lines were tepid because the script was crap. Not his fault. Rip on Jake Lloyd, Hayden, Portman, Ian Mcdiarmid... but not Jackson...

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#30 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 08:41 PM

I thought Lucas was at the very least, a good busnessman. But the more I read about Failoni, the less I think even that. This guy was a lousy choice. The PR says that Filoni was the Director of the Avatar Cartoon Series. But checking IMDB, it says:

* Filoni only directed 7 episodes out of 61 of Avatar
* This was only in the very last season
* Filoni played no role in creating the series; that was by two other guys.
* He only wrote *ONE* episode ever. Yes. One. 1. He wrote nothing anywhere else.
* Before that he was a storyboard artist on a small number of features.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1396048/


Indiana Jones he's not

The guy is on the lower end of the experience scale, and he has none at all creating a series from scratch. So why was Lucas stupid enough to give this guy, who had only ever written one episode ever, a role where he was creating stories and characters for an entire series? Why didn't Lucas give the role to someone with some real experience who actually knew what they were doing? Failoni is way out of his depth, and it shows. The only thing that could have got him this job was tickling Lucas' ego with his fanboydom, and Lucas desire to cut costs by not hiring real talent. Lucas actually introduced Failoni as "My Padawan" and told him 'Look, I'm teaching you guys how to make Star Wars.' (Failoni said he listened 'very seriously').

QUOTE
(Filoni): "There's so many moments where you just catch yourself looking outside yourself standing at a monitor next to George Lucas going over a bunch of shots that you directed and now he's giving you his opinion on it," continues Filoni. "And you just wonder, how did I get here? You kind of imagine, well, that's for other people. But if you work hard enough or chance finds you, you end up in these places."

http://www.starwars....10/indexp2.html

And listen to whose company he places himself in:
QUOTE
Filoni: It is really amazing. But, at the same time you get into the industry for a reason because you want to work on great properties and try to do great things. And, I think that when the chance came – even when I worked on Avatar, with that group, after Last Airbender -- we were looking at things like Cowboy Bebop and we were looking at Naruto and Hayao Miyazaki, and we were just amazed by that. But I had to tell the crews I had, "Look guys. We can try and be fans, but we also want to try and be there and say, 'Wow, we like that. Let's try and make something that good.'" And, I think when you do Star Wars, it is a big responsibility and I take it very seriously. But, you have to then actually do it. So, yeah, I do step back every now and then and go, "Wow, I can't believe there's an action figure based on the design that I was involved with doing." That's awesome. There's videogames coming out. That's awesome. So, there's still that fan aspect.

http://movies.ign.co...2/892543p1.html

You Fail, Filoni. I wouldn't even wipe my ass with Clonewars toilet paper. If you can, get the TV Guide Clone Wars CD-ROM. Much of it is Failoni with his stupid hat and a big smirk on his face, swaying from side-to-side like he's Stevie Wonder. He reeks of failure.

George Lucas really stuffed up here. Ok, Lucas is an arrogant ass. We know that, but he really paid the price here with a really bad hire. Just imagine if Lucas had delegated this to an experienced director, who said (a) are we making something for kids only or grown-ups too? Decide. ( b ) Let's get some real writers and have real plots, ( c ) The audience knows who lives and who dies, George. How about something new? (d) You've got millions and you're going to be a cheapskate on animations? People will laugh at you, George, not with you.. (e) A Bratz Jedi? That's a really dumb idea, George. A Gay Hutt. What idiot dreamed up this sh#t? (f) That guy Filoni. He's a total schleb. I want him gone.

QUOTE (HK 47 @ Aug 19 2008, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anyway thanks for summarizing everything Toru-chan. It's a very enjoyable read, especially the last Filoni part.

Thanks. It's Therapy: Like Clarice keeping a scrapbook tracking Hannibal Lecter's final days.

QUOTE (HK 47 @ Aug 19 2008, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All George does is walk into a room and point at the stuff he fancies for the moment. If you have a wall full of top of the line concept art, it's hard to go wrong. Something George manages however...

Thanks for clearing that up. You're right. I've seen the DVD shorts with the concept artists fawning over him. I doubt Lucas sat down one weekend and personally painted the Genosis concept art.

QUOTE (Vesuvius @ Aug 20 2008, 05:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Alright, a lot of what you wrote was funny! I was almost out of my chair on some of this stuff. Nice job.

That wasn't actually mine. I think it was satire, but you're forgiven for mistaking it for the real thing. It's floating around the net and many people who see it think it's real, which says a lot about 'Clone Wars'. And hell.. even if Filoni doesn't actually say that, it's exactly what he did.

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 19 August 2008 - 08:50 PM

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