[Amber-Nicole]

Why are any of us REALLY here, Amber?

Well, I'm here because I enjoy the company of you people.

I'm just easily annoyed, I suppose. No one seems to like him, and he's pretty much an ass to everyone. I could just as easily ask him, "Why do you exist?" Because I'm thinking "I wish you didn't exist. *annoyed*"

[Jane Sherwood]

As much as I hate to admit it: I have to agree with Lachie to a certain degree. Anyone who commits the act of rape, whether it be on a child or not, deserves the harshest of punishments. Normally I would agree that an in-depth psychological analysis is the way to go, but not in this case. I don't care what the excuse is, anyone who consciously commits such a sadistic and degrading crime deserves pain.

LOTS of pain. I say make the twisted bastards suffer.

This post has been edited by Jane Sherwood: 12 May 2004 - 06:31 PM

[Heccubus]

I just found it funny that he made a typo in a sentence that condescended Yahtzee's spelling...

Anyway, to a certain extent, Yahtzee has a point, however the other side of things has a point as well. It's definitely a situation that will no doubt always result in a difference of opinion. And not just here, I'm sure there are many other people who would like to find out the cause of the behaviour on a psychological level.

[Supes]

This is a hot topic and there are a million points of view. Lachie has a point and so does Yatz. Everyone has a frame of reference. Lachie and Jane have referred specifically to people that have physically or emotionally harmed children and I can certainly empathise with their rage at this. And in many instances their stance is very justified.

Having said that, there are a large number of pedophiles/paedophiles that have never phsyically touched a child. They find children alluring and see them as sexual beings, but they do not take things that next step. Where do these people fit into the scheme of things. Should they be locked up on the "just in case" principle? What is it that is different that stops some people from acting upon their impulses and not others? Is it that different from an adult rapist in their compulsions?

The answers to all these questions I don't really know, but I do know that if we do not take the opportunity to try to understand these impulses then we are going to be hard pressed to affect change. Presently there are very few who would openly admit to having peadophilic tendencies and thus undertake psychological assessments. As such, we are left with those who are caught and convicted of these horrific crimes. I share your rage, but I also want to see overall change in the future. My preference is to try and unlock what is happening inside their heads in order to make things "better" in the future.

If they also get the crap beaten out of them while they are in prison, then I will be less inclined to shed a tear, but that is the dichotomy of this situation. I want to understand, but I also want them to feel the pain they inflicted upon those children - and in some ways they probably should.

Sure, Lachie could be more polite about the way he addresses people, but blood boils in this topic area, and he is presently true to his standard form of posting. I think he was wrong to label Yatz the Peadophiles champion, but again, that's his style. In the end it's all about the discussion. That's generally why we are here. It is easy enough to ignore someone, but it's much harder when a can of worms like this is opened.

Personally, I like that this topic has been opened again. It warrants much more discussion than people really give it. But let's stick to discussion and not personal attacks. That is a bad way to discuss anything.

[Amber-Nicole]

Okay. All personal attacks aside, blah blah blah.


Let's study the pedophiles, AND lock them up and make them suffer!

[Supes]

Well I certainly think we should lock up those offenders that violate children. It is a very reasonable response to very unreasonable acts.

I was also very interested in the remarks Yatz made:

Something Awful did an article recently showcasing posts in paedophile forums. They discussed things we consider abhorrent with no sense of shame whatsoever, bemoaning the way society persecuted them. It was repulsive, but it underlined for me that these people are not hand-wringing demons, but humans like anyone else with major psychological issues. The current law system just isn't well-suited for reform.

The internet provides us with a very useful tool in examining the pysche of paedophiles through forums just like is outlined above. As I said, there are many individuals out there that have these tendencies, but do not act upon them. Somewhere like this is where they may feel safer to discuss their case in relative anonimity.

I was just drawing a distinction between an offender and someone who fantasies about children.

We have more resources avaialble to us now to examine not just paedophilia, but all forms of mental illness (so may argue that it is not an illness, but this is my personal view) and it is not unreasonable of us to expect that we use them.

[Lachie Dazdarian]

That was me. Forgot to log in.

[civilian_number_two]

Supes brought up what I think is the most important point in this thread: not all pedophiles have sex with children. A key detail missing from popular understanding of pedophilia is the misuse of the word. So:

Pedophile: An adult is sexually attracted to children
Pederast : A man who has sex with boys.

Pretty damning that we don't even have a word for a man who has sex with young girls, but this is a society that only recently stopped marrying off teenagers to full-grown men. And we've gone and taken the one word completely out of context, and frankly it a bit hypocritical.

What's all the hysteria around the Olsen twins? The former interest in Alicia Silverstone, Natalie Portman, Anna Kournikova, and the ongoing fascination with female gymnasts? It's pedophilia. We are a culture of pedophiles: look at the North American success of THE PROFESSIONAL for a case study. That some guys get worked up over the media fixation with teenaged superstars, and that they go out to commit crimes, shouldn't surprise anyone. Used to be they'd get adults to play teenagers in movies. Now there are more movies about teenagers than ever, in a way similar to all the rape fantasies that graced the Jacobean theatre with the introduction of female actors.

All that said, if you do the crime, do the time. We have lots of people; you won't be missed.

[Jordan]

You think North America is bad, go to Japan. My sister started modeling there when she was 14. And she told me some stories. Men over there love the young stupid silly school girl get up.

My sister had numerous offers for sex, many men were even willing to pay her. Part of her job was to grace parties and car shows. The people at these events (old wealthy men) had no problem with straight up asking her for sex.

She even said you could buy used underwear from newspaper boxes on the sides of the street.

I agree with the Olsen Twins 100% It's fucking sick how they started selling sex appeal at 15. "look at us, we are young and fraglie, and in 3 years we'll be legal"

This post has been edited by Jordan: 13 May 2004 - 03:26 AM

[Mist]

Laura's here, yay. Please stick around, Laura.

I gained some respect for lachie in this thread, although I don't really find his jokes funny, (I don't take offense at them either) I do respect him somewhat now. In fact, I have more respect for nearly everyone now, including Supes and Laura, and my opinion of them was already pretty high.

I want to respond to this in more detail later, but I need to wake up in two hours. I just wanted to express my newfound respect for everyone. I'd also like to express my sadness towards Supes. You always beat me to saying some of these things. I need to come around more often.

EDIT: I had commented briefly, but I've erased it due to lack of sense, which I attribute to lack of sleep, but which may exist regardless.

This post has been edited by Mist: 13 May 2004 - 05:44 AM

[Heccubus]

Jordan, the thing about Japan is that they have very laxed attitudes towards sexuality. That's why children's television shows often have homosexual characters, partial nudity, and almost constant references to sexual activity when a female character is in the area. It seems very shocking to us, but really it's just everyday life over there. As is my understanding, anyway.
Civilian number 2 makes a good point, our own culture has an obsession with underage women that essentially goes un-noticed. Next time you look through the magazine rack at the variety store, try not to look away from that top shelf. Just take a mental toll on how many "Barely legal" rags are sitting there. It's apalling.

[Supes]

Well, I'm going to give kudos to Lachie here also for opening up this topic area again. People really don't recognise just how prevelant this sort of issue is until they take the time to discuss it. After that people tend to get a bit of a wake up call. It's nice to see some solid discssion from you Lachie. Like Mist, I'm not overly concerned by an aggressive sense of humour, but it's great when it's balanced with some good discussion also.

As to Mist, thanks for the nice thoughts & sorry for stealing your thunder But I'm sure there is still plenty left for people to add to the discussion. I do look forward to seeing your re-post. I'll also get back to you post in one of the other topics a little later when you were rambling thoughts and looking for feedback.

Nice also to see Civ#2 join in. A man with a thousand resources and a wealth of useful information that we can all learn from. Good to have you picking this one us Civ and I'm glad you picked up the point about paedophiles not all being guilty of having sex with children. It is a very important distinction and has a lot to do with the way we handle this situation in society. Thanks also for adding the culture bent to this along with Jordan and Hecc. It was not that long ago that 13 year old girls were married off to 30 and 40 year old men and in some countries this is still a common occurance. How does this change the concept of paedophilia? Is it okay if the girls parents have arranged this and set it up on her behalf? Is this any safer? And how does this place young boys? Is it paedophilia for an adult to have a sexual relationship with a young boy no matter what cultural background and if so, what is the difference? How do young girls differ from young boys (apart from the obvious physical attributes) in terms of social culture?

There are just so many facets to this sort of topic area and variables to be considered. We're getting into some of them at the moment.

Major respect give to all involved. Thanks guys and girls.

[Mist]

Aww. Thanks Supes, I forgive you... *ominous voice* THIS TIME... :ominous:

I'm fully aware that that smiley doesn't exist. Also, you don't HAVE to reply to my ramblings, you know. I didn't actually expect anyone to even read my posts there, let alone reply to them. I was just using that space to use up steam and just write.

Now the only problem that remains is to make a riposte. Hee, I made a play on words.

*erhem*... Ok, so I shouldn't have said anything about lachie's sense of humor.

Anyway, I can't remember what I wanted to comment on before, and since I wasn't thinking too clearly, it's a pretty safe bet that it was incoherent or just something that most stoned fish could come up with on a regular basis.

Since Supes seems to actually expect something from me... I just saw something on Ancient Greece and their pederastic ways. That kind of ties in with this, doesn't it? I do think that Civ made some very good points about how our culture is still integrated with paedophilia, but we're blind to it because we've grown up with it. As to Supes' "Is it still paedophilia if it's integrated into the culture, etc?" question, my answer would be, "Yes." As has already been pointed out, paedophilia is not inherently BAD or inherently GOOD. Here is the definition:

The act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual activity with a child or children.

Even if it's integrated into the culture, accepted by that culture, and encouraged by that culture (as in Ancient Greece), the phenomenon still occurs, and since we've named the phenomenon "paedophilia" and it's various spellings, paedophilia would still exist. I think your question was asking if it would still have the negative connotations that it currently does? Sorry if I'm wrong, Supes. I definitely think this thread would have a completely different tone if it was a culturally accepted and encouraged phenomenon. It would be radical thinking to think bad of it if it were a cultural norm. As with so many things, society greatly influences how people think by creating the atmosphere in which they grow up and learn the ways of the world. That may be completely astray from what you were trying to ask, but at least it's more than last time, eh?

On a side note, I like smilies. <-That one's my favorite.