[J m HofMarN]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/149009

From now on, I move that Bush officials be limited to two hours of family programing before bed time and no more.

Also, I move that they immediately be shot, dragged through the streets and burned at the stake.

But also, the first one.

For those who dont feel like clicking the link, its a story that basically reveals that the Bush administration based its torture policy upon the Fox series 24. It contains at least three quotes from the scumbags in question referencing Jack Bauer. I really don't know what else to say. Also page two has a charming vignette about torturers terrorizing their captive with threats of dog-rape.

I love America!

[Deucaon]

Now if an army wants to make sure its soldiers (or civilians) don't surrender to (or help) the Americans then all they need to do is show those Abu Ghraib photos.

[J m HofMarN]

It's odd how that works. Many of the people in Guantanamo probably did try to go down fighting, I know I would. One of the guys in the news recently is a Canadian, Omar Kadir I think is his name. He was with the Taliban when the US bombed them. So the US sends soldiers in to see if everyone's dead and somehow he's not, so he tosses a grenade at them and kills one of them, then begs them to finish him off since he's half dead from the bombing, Instead they kept him alive and sent him to Guanatanamo to be tortured and indefinately detained. He was 15 at the time.

The punch line is this: They're charging him with war crimes. War. Crimes. For throwing a grenade at a guy who was pointing a gun at him. If there are rules of war, I'd say they definately advocate that sort of behavior, cuz otherwise it'd be very hard to have a war.

[Deucaon]

Many of the people in Guantanamo probably did try to go down fighting, I know I would.

How many wars have you fought in?

[J m HofMarN]

27. And you don't need to fight in a war for these people to come after you. A better question would have been "are you a Muslim" which seems to be the more proper qualifier for imprisonment and torture. Most of the people at Guantanamo were released without charge and turned out to be poor farmers or something.

[Deucaon]

27. And you don't need to fight in a war for these people to come after you. A better question would have been "are you a Muslim" which seems to be the more proper qualifier for imprisonment and torture. Most of the people at Guantanamo were released without charge and turned out to be poor farmers or something.

How many American Muslims have been imprisoned for being Muslim?

[J m HofMarN]

Lets see here, just off the bat there was that fellow they put in prison and then made up some shit about a dirty bomb, there were three Muslims jailed for buying a large number of cel phones, twelve Muslims from Buffalo and Lackawanna were charged with material support, one more with recruitment for the taliban, and two others with material support, and then theres the FBI's habit of hiring infiltrators to spy on mosques, and speaking of te FBI, they hired a guy in New York as an agent provacateur, he told some Muslims to go to Iraq and kill people, and when they decided he was right he narked them out and they too were thrown in prison.

[civilian_number_two]

The best was the dude who claimed to belong to an organization called The Brotherhood (!) and who found an unwitting (Muslim) dupe and convinced him that The Brotherhood (!) neeed him to smuggle a bomb for them. When the dude agreed, they arrested him on conspiracy to smuggle a bomb (they didn't even bother to get him to smuggle the bomb.

I think it's awesome that every kid in America still has to read Orwell's fiction in the twelfth grade, and then they grow up to support a governm,ent that curtails civil liberties and actually plays out scenarios exactly as described in Orwell's fiction.

[J m HofMarN]

I think that may have been the FBI chap I was refering to, or another of their guys. And yeah, The Brotherhood was an awesome choice of names.

unwitting (Muslim) dupe

AHA! Finally an admission that all terrorists are unwitting dupes!

[Deucaon]

Lets see here, just off the bat there was that fellow they put in prison and then made up some shit about a dirty bomb, there were three Muslims jailed for buying a large number of cel phones, twelve Muslims from Buffalo and Lackawanna were charged with material support, one more with recruitment for the taliban, and two others with material support, and then theres the FBI's habit of hiring infiltrators to spy on mosques, and speaking of te FBI, they hired a guy in New York as an agent provacateur, he told some Muslims to go to Iraq and kill people, and when they decided he was right he narked them out and they too were thrown in prison.

So in other words 17 people were arrested for conspiracy to commit terrorism. But lets use your logic and say they are being arrested for being Muslims, in that case...

Alleged White Supremacist Arrested For Possible Bomb Plot.

White supremacist arrested in series of crimes.

White supremacist rally ends with arrests.

This is ample proof that the American government hates Whites because they are arresting supposed terrorists who happen to be White. Just like how they hate Muslims because they are arresting supposed terrorists who happen to be Muslims.

The best was the dude who claimed to belong to an organization called The Brotherhood (!) and who found an unwitting (Muslim) dupe and convinced him that The Brotherhood (!) neeed him to smuggle a bomb for them. When the dude agreed, they arrested him on conspiracy to smuggle a bomb (they didn't even bother to get him to smuggle the bomb.

I think it's awesome that every kid in America still has to read Orwell's fiction in the twelfth grade, and then they grow up to support a governm,ent that curtails civil liberties and actually plays out scenarios exactly as described in Orwell's fiction.

More to do with American society then with government actions. Paranoia left over from the Cold War is still gripping the imagination of Americans.

[J m HofMarN]

So in other words 17 people were arrested for conspiracy to commit terrorism. But lets use your logic and say they are being arrested for being Muslims, in that case...

I said people were being arrested for being Muslims, you asked on a totally unrelated note how many people of one nationality had been arrested for said crime. I told you. Then you claimed that this did not represent an organized gulag campaign to imprison Muslims. The global conflict is what I was talking about, and is where the US kidnaps most of its victims. Most do not have American citizenship, so your question was clearly pointed to minimize the abuses of the government.

More to do with American society then with government actions. Paranoia left over from the Cold War is still gripping the imagination of Americans.

Actually when a government agent does something, I think it has a lot to do with government actions, but that's just me.

[civilian_number_two]

More to do with American society then with government actions. Paranoia left over from the Cold War is still gripping the imagination of Americans.

I could just go with "What JM said," but I'd rather reply with "huh?"

The imagination of Americans had nothing to do with that particular sting operation. That action was the equivalent of going to a poor neighbourhood, seeking out kids hanging around in the playground, offering them money to run drugs for you, and then arresting them for wanting to run drugs. It's called entrapment, and it's illegal. However, under the Patriot Act, numerous civil liberties are suspended if you can produce the argument that you suspect terrorism. So under the Patriot Act entrapment is illegal.

The Patriot Act did not spring from the Cold War, nor from the Imagination of Americans. The Patriot Act was created by agents of the government and made law by Congress. The American People were not involved, except in that broad philosophical sense that we use when we pretend that the Republic of the United States uses its powers to properly act on the wishes of its people.

[Deucaon]

I said people were being arrested for being Muslims, you asked on a totally unrelated note how many people of one nationality had been arrested for said crime. I told you. Then you claimed that this did not represent an organized gulag campaign to imprison Muslims. The global conflict is what I was talking about, and is where the US kidnaps most of its victims. Most do not have American citizenship, so your question was clearly pointed to minimize the abuses of the government.

27. And you don't need to fight in a war for these people to come after you. A better question would have been "are you a Muslim" which seems to be the more proper qualifier for imprisonment and torture. Most of the people at Guantanamo were released without charge and turned out to be poor farmers or something.

How many American Muslims have been imprisoned for being Muslim?

Lets see here, just off the bat there was that fellow they put in prison and then made up some shit about a dirty bomb, there were three Muslims jailed for buying a large number of cel phones, twelve Muslims from Buffalo and Lackawanna were charged with material support, one more with recruitment for the taliban, and two others with material support, and then theres the FBI's habit of hiring infiltrators to spy on mosques, and speaking of te FBI, they hired a guy in New York as an agent provacateur, he told some Muslims to go to Iraq and kill people, and when they decided he was right he narked them out and they too were thrown in prison.

So in other words 17 people were arrested for conspiracy to commit terrorism. But lets use your logic and say they are being arrested for being Muslims, in that case...

Alleged White Supremacist Arrested For Possible Bomb Plot.

White supremacist arrested in series of crimes.

White supremacist rally ends with arrests.

This is ample proof that the American government hates Whites because they are arresting supposed terrorists who happen to be White. Just like how they hate Muslims because they are arresting supposed terrorists who happen to be Muslims.

Actually when a government agent does something, I think it has a lot to do with government actions, but that's just me.

I could just go with "What JM said," but I'd rather reply with "huh?"

The imagination of Americans had nothing to do with that particular sting operation. That action was the equivalent of going to a poor neighbourhood, seeking out kids hanging around in the playground, offering them money to run drugs for you, and then arresting them for wanting to run drugs. It's called entrapment, and it's illegal. However, under the Patriot Act, numerous civil liberties are suspended if you can produce the argument that you suspect terrorism. So under the Patriot Act entrapment is illegal.

The Patriot Act did not spring from the Cold War, nor from the Imagination of Americans. The Patriot Act was created by agents of the government and made law by Congress. The American People were not involved, except in that broad philosophical sense that we use when we pretend that the Republic of the United States uses its powers to properly act on the wishes of its people.

I'm not thinking of the PATRIOT Act, my thoughts linger on the collective silence in America when agents of the government arrest people and gives a bogus excuse when they do. But forget I wrote anything about it since I cant find any sources on the hysteria of supposed Soviet/Libyan/Iraqi/Serb/Afghan sleeper cells in America other then blockbuster movies.

[J m HofMarN]

You quoted a half a dozen posts just to say "Forget I wrote anything". You get a gold star. And a big fat No.

Yes, the American people are in some ways to blame for not being more active and informed. But Bush scared the shit out of the masses, constantly threatening them with terrorism and nuclear destruction, and accusing anyone who stood up to him of nothing less than treachery or collusion with terrorists. A lot of the paranoia you blame on the American people was stoked and nurtured by Bush to ensure that he could get away with things like what was mentioned. Honestly, holding the populace of the US accountable for every crime our government commits is the same logic that is used by Al Qaeda.

And in all your quotes you made no reply to my previous post about arresting people for being Muslims. I'm guessing you just got lost in that mad web of quotations.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 14 August 2008 - 12:46 PM

[Deucaon]

You quoted a half a dozen posts just to say "Forget I wrote anything". You get a gold star. And a big fat No.

And in all your quotes you made no reply to my previous post about arresting people for being Muslims. I'm guessing you just got lost in that mad web of quotations.

How many American Muslims have been imprisoned for being Muslim?

Lets see here, just off the bat there was that fellow they put in prison and then made up some shit about a dirty bomb, there were three Muslims jailed for buying a large number of cel phones, twelve Muslims from Buffalo and Lackawanna were charged with material support, one more with recruitment for the taliban, and two others with material support, and then theres the FBI's habit of hiring infiltrators to spy on mosques, and speaking of te FBI, they hired a guy in New York as an agent provacateur, he told some Muslims to go to Iraq and kill people, and when they decided he was right he narked them out and they too were thrown in prison.

Are you fucking blind or what?

Yes, the American people are in some ways to blame for not being more active and informed. But Bush scared the shit out of the masses, constantly threatening them with terrorism and nuclear destruction, and accusing anyone who stood up to him of nothing less than treachery or collusion with terrorists. A lot of the paranoia you blame on the American people was stoked and nurtured by Bush to ensure that he could get away with things like what was mentioned. Honestly, holding the populace of the US accountable for every crime our government commits is the same logic that is used by Al Qaeda.

When Clinton was bombing 3 separate Serb states into oblivion, the newspapers were writing about the Serb Orthodox Church in America encouraging violence against the state. When Bush I was bombing/invading Iraq, the newspapers were writing about Iraqi sleeper agents ready to blow up American skyscrapers. The dehumanization of Serbs lasts even today while the dehumanization of Iraqis lasted until 2003 (though the paranoia still lingers.) The idea that any reporter was afraid of American born Serbs and Iraqis is preposterous. Of course this is not their fault since their paranoia and fears are a left over mentality of the Cold War (and WW2) when all enemies fit into one category.