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Which freedoms do terrorists hate most and why?

#61 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 05:16 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 4 2008, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh come on. What motivation could there possibly be for Hamas to horde food or fuel from Palestinians under their government? Their people rarely drive in cars, and they're the elected government of Gaza, so I'd say they have a pretty good reason to equally distribute supplies. The problem is that Hamas' distributions are almost the only food available, since under the economic embargo no one can make any money to buy other food with.


What the hell do you think those Katyushas run on? Goodwill?

As for the food (and the fuel they don't use)... they sell it to the Gaza residents at higher prices.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 4 2008, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Issrael purged Palestinians based upon religion. Israel denies Muslim arabs citizenship, but does not deny Jewish arabs. Israel closes the borders of Gaza and the West Bank, so the only work to be gotten is in Israel where you must speak Yiddish, and where it helps to be a Jew.


Two Israeli soldiers chat with Arab citizens of Israel in the Galilee, 1978.

Wikipedia states...

Number of Arab civilians in Israel: 1,375,600.

Number of Muslim civilians in Israel: 1,142,000.

ProCon.org states...

Number of Arabs in Israel: 1,439,700.

Number of Jews in West Bank: 255,600.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 4 2008, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It is not OUR definition, it is THE WORLD's definition. from the 1948 treaty on the prevention and punishment of genocide:

Israel is guilty of A, B, and C. C, by the way, would cover putting people in concentration camps, or making their living space a concentration camp by, I dunno, building a big fucking wall around it and lobbing in bombs. You'll also notice the part about the intent of the actions. That's why what the US did was not genocide.


If Palestinians are living so badly and are under such a harsh embargo... how the hell did they get Katyushas across the border? As for your lame claim of genocide:

A. Surely if Israel was planning to kill all Arabs/Muslims then it would have started with the ones INSIDE Israel.

B. The only time Israel lobbies bombs into the Gaza Strip or the West Bank is when crazy religious militants there lobby rockets into Israel.

C. For me to believe you I would have to ignore the fact that the Arab population has continually increased since 1948.

D. You must have proof that Israelis steal Arab children (then sacrificing them to their god, no doubt) and relocate them to other places.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 4 2008, 02:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You claimed that we were somehow holocaust minimizers, though neither of us had made any statement to disparage the factuality of the holocaust or reduce the generally accepted number of humans killed therein. This was baseless and was just a knee jerk rebuttal to something that clearly bothered you: The statement that, if you don't think herding Palestinians out of their homes and confining them in squalid conditions isn't genocide, that you must think the same of what was done to the Jews before they were killed. To say that only when Hitler actually had them killed was genocide being comitted, and not until then, is a form of holocaust denial. And runs contrary, as I've shown, to international law.


You two are holocaust minimizers by declaring every war since WW2 to be a "holocaust" and "genocide." You did in fact declare every war to be genocide since you declared that property damage and refugees constitute genocide (I assume civilian_number_two agrees with you on that.)

This post has been edited by Deucaon: 04 August 2008 - 05:17 AM

"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
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#62 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 01:16 PM

QUOTE
What the hell do you think those Katyushas run on? Goodwill?

As for the food (and the fuel they don't use)... they sell it to the Gaza residents at higher prices.


You mean the Katyushas that are fired in Lebanon and not at all by Hamas? Those Katyushas? In Gaza they fire Qassam rockets, named for a Mujahed fighter from some time ago, and according to the specs I've seen, they run on solid fuel. And I just said that Gaza had almost no employment, so how could Hamas possibly make a profit selling anything to people with no money? And why would they want to seeing as they already control the public's finances? Hamas is not as corrupt as their Western backed counterparts in Ramalah.

QUOTE
Two Israeli soldiers chat with Arab citizens of Israel in the Galilee, 1978.

Wikipedia states...

Number of Arab civilians in Israel: 1,375,600.

Number of Muslim civilians in Israel: 1,142,000.

ProCon.org states...

Number of Arabs in Israel: 1,439,700.

Number of Jews in West Bank: 255,600.


Ok, first off, your numbers include East Jerusalem which is occupied territory and whose Arab residents don't get proper Israeli citizenship. Secondly, that wikipedia article pretty much came out and said in several places that the Zionists are actively against Palestinian people becoming more numerous in Israel as evidenced by the link and quote below.

I hope everyone, not just Deuacon, will check this out. It gives a window into the twisted ideas of the Zionists

http://en.wikipedia....enig_Memorandum

QUOTE
The Koenig Memorandum (also known as The Koenig Report) was a confidential and internal Israeli government document authored in April 1976 by Yisrael Koenig, a member of the Alignment (then the ruling party), who served as the Northern District Commissioner of the Ministry of the Interior for 26 years.[1][2]

The document put forward a number of strategic goals and tactical steps aimed at reducing the number and influence of Arab citizens of Israel in the Galilee region. Outlining what he viewed as "objective thought that ensures the long-term Jewish national interests", Koenig stressed the need to "examine the possibility of diluting existing Arab population concentrations".[3]


QUOTE
If Palestinians are living so badly and are under such a harsh embargo... how the hell did they get Katyushas across the border? As for your lame claim of genocide:


They didn't. The manufacture Qassams themselves.

QUOTE
A. Surely if Israel was planning to kill all Arabs/Muslims then it would have started with the ones INSIDE Israel.


It expelled the vast majority of them from Israel proper, and most of the Arabs counted under Israel's dominion now are there because of the zionist invasions.

QUOTE
B. The only time Israel lobbies bombs into the Gaza Strip or the West Bank is when crazy religious militants there lobby rockets into Israel.


And vice versa and so on and so forth. Israel has a higher number of civilian casualties, and no matter what you say they've made plenty of unprovoked attacks, including assaults on infrastructure and projects in both Iraq and Syria. Their bloody assassin Mossad service also routinely kills people all over the middle east, including at least one American citizen.

QUOTE
C. For me to believe you I would have to ignore the fact that the Arab population has continually increased since 1948.


The black population in the US was on the increase between 1800 and 1860. Does this mean there were not crimes against humanity going on? And the population of arabs increased because Israel kept taking over Arab territory full of Arabs.

QUOTE
D. You must have proof that Israelis steal Arab children (then sacrificing them to their god, no doubt) and relocate them to other places.


I never claimed that D applied. Go read, shoo.

QUOTE
You two are holocaust minimizers by declaring every war since WW2 to be a "holocaust" and "genocide." You did in fact declare every war to be genocide since you declared that property damage and refugees constitute genocide (I assume civilian_number_two agrees with you on that.)


You know if you had something to base these claims off it might be trouble. No, every war since world war 2 has not been genocidal. The intent has to be there, it has to be an organized campaign. I would surely say that the document I cited and Israel's reprehensible settlement and military actions to date show intent quite well. Speaking of genocide, do you finally accept the UN's definition of it or are you still going to claim that genocide only occurs if people go out and kill everyone in a certain group?

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 04 August 2008 - 01:21 PM

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#63 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 01:39 PM

Deuc, I never said that every time someone loses a home or is moved from one residence to another it is an act of genocide. My post says only that you are wrong when you say that the Nazis, in WWII, were not committing an act of genocide when they forced Jewish civilians into labour camps while confiscating their property and their homes. You said that those actions were not consistent with the genocide that you say began later. I disagree. The labour camps were a part of a system of genocide. Genocide was always the plan.

Comparisons with the immoral internment camps set up in North America during that same war are not apt. Those camps should never have existed, but they were not a part of a sytem of genocide. Those interred were not forced into labour, and there was no plan to kill them when their effectiveness waned or when fresher units were brought in from other towns.

Your claim of holocaust minimization invites a rubber/glue retort when you say that the Nazi forced labour camps and the North American internment camps are more than superficially similar.

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#64 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 10:28 PM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 5 2008, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You mean the Katyushas that are fired in Lebanon and not at all by Hamas? Those Katyushas? In Gaza they fire Qassam rockets, named for a Mujahed fighter from some time ago, and according to the specs I've seen, they run on solid fuel. And I just said that Gaza had almost no employment, so how could Hamas possibly make a profit selling anything to people with no money? And why would they want to seeing as they already control the public's finances? Hamas is not as corrupt as their Western backed counterparts in Ramalah.

They didn't. The manufacture Qassams themselves.


Katyusha in Gaza.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 5 2008, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok, first off, your numbers include East Jerusalem which is occupied territory and whose Arab residents don't get proper Israeli citizenship. Secondly, that wikipedia article pretty much came out and said in several places that the Zionists are actively against Palestinian people becoming more numerous in Israel as evidenced by the link and quote below.


ProCon.org states...

Number of Arabs in Israel minus East Jerusalem in 1949: 159,100.

Number of Arabs in Israel including East Jerusalem in 1967: 392,700.

Number of Arabs in Israel including East Jerusalem in 1973: 493,200.

So the number of Arabs increased by roughly 30% between 1967 and 1973. Lets forget the population growth for the moment. The amount of Arabs in Israel is 159,100 while the number in East Jerusalem is 233,600 which means that there is roughly 25% more Arabs in East Jerusalem then in the rest of Israel (which makes sense since Jerusalem is a dense urban centre.) Now if we apply the same rule to the 1,413,300 Arab civilians living in Israel today, then around 700,000 of those Arabs living in Israel live outside of East Jerusalem.

Of course the number of Arabs living outside East Jerusalem is much larger since I didn't include population growth.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 5 2008, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hope everyone, not just Deuacon, will check this out. It gives a window into the twisted ideas of the Zionists

http://en.wikipedia....enig_Memorandum

It expelled the vast majority of them from Israel proper, and most of the Arabs counted under Israel's dominion now are there because of the zionist invasions.


I need an English translation of "The Koenig Report."

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 5 2008, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And vice versa and so on and so forth. Israel has a higher number of civilian casualties, and no matter what you say they've made plenty of unprovoked attacks, including assaults on infrastructure and projects in both Iraq and Syria. Their bloody assassin Mossad service also routinely kills people all over the middle east, including at least one American citizen.


Unprovoked attacks... against countries which have continually called for the destruction of Israel.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 5 2008, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The black population in the US was on the increase between 1800 and 1860. Does this mean there were not crimes against humanity going on? And the population of arabs increased because Israel kept taking over Arab territory full of Arabs.


You're confusing "crimes against humanity" with "trying to wipe out an entire group of people based on their ethnicity or religion."

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 5 2008, 04:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You know if you had something to base these claims off it might be trouble. No, every war since world war 2 has not been genocidal. The intent has to be there, it has to be an organized campaign. I would surely say that the document I cited and Israel's reprehensible settlement and military actions to date show intent quite well. Speaking of genocide, do you finally accept the UN's definition of it or are you still going to claim that genocide only occurs if people go out and kill everyone in a certain group?


Defining genocide as killing a group and/or trying to forcibly make that group have less babies is something I can agree with. Forcing people off their land, locking them up and/or destroying their homes is not.

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Aug 5 2008, 04:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Deuc, I never said that every time someone loses a home or is moved from one residence to another it is an act of genocide. My post says only that you are wrong when you say that the Nazis, in WWII, were not committing an act of genocide when they forced Jewish civilians into labour camps while confiscating their property and their homes. You said that those actions were not consistent with the genocide that you say began later. I disagree. The labour camps were a part of a system of genocide. Genocide was always the plan.

Comparisons with the immoral internment camps set up in North America during that same war are not apt. Those camps should never have existed, but they were not a part of a sytem of genocide. Those interred were not forced into labour, and there was no plan to kill them when their effectiveness waned or when fresher units were brought in from other towns.

Your claim of holocaust minimization invites a rubber/glue retort when you say that the Nazi forced labour camps and the North American internment camps are more than superficially similar.


My mistake. I confused genocide with the holocaust which didn't start until 1943 (with the failure of the Madagascar Plan.) The holocaust being the industrialized genocide of a people.

I still disagree that locking up a group of people is genocide... locking up a group of people in a forced labour camp where they are fed next to nothing (which the Israelis haven't done) is a different matter.

This post has been edited by Deucaon: 04 August 2008 - 10:29 PM

"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#65 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 02:01 AM

QUOTE
Katyusha in Gaza.


Ok, thats nice. Theres a katyusha or two in Gaza. But that does nothing to refute the broader point I was making:

1: Most rockets, indeed the vast majority, are solid fuel in Gaza and are made therein.
2: Hamas is not selling food aid to Gaza residents for profit.

QUOTE
Number of Arabs in Israel minus East Jerusalem in 1949: 159,100.

Number of Arabs in Israel including East Jerusalem in 1967: 392,700.

Number of Arabs in Israel including East Jerusalem in 1973: 493,200.


You're still playing with loaded dice here by starting out minus east jerusalem and then adding it in. That does indeed make it look like a growth of several hundred thousand. But the only two years you have there with East Jerusalem factored in suggest that in 1 decade only a hundred thousand people were added. Plus you're not factoring the Chebaa farms and so forth. I would like to see numbers with context. That site just offers numbers and nothing else.

Although if you want to play with numbers from there, in 1946, 77 percent of the population were Muslim in present day Israel. In 1949, 86 percent of the population of Israel (MINUS east Jerusalem, Gaza, West Bank and Chebaa) was Jewish. So that's a total reversal of population within just 3 years. About 1 million Arabs simply disappeared. In what way can you not consider that maybe this represents genocide?

QUOTE
I need an English translation of "The Koenig Report."


The article is in English, assuming you can take the time to read something that presents more facts than just random statistics. Stupid quips will not distract me from the facts, I'd like your comment on the fact that the Koenig Report basically advocates a policy of genocide on the part of the Zionists.

QUOTE
Unprovoked attacks... against countries which have continually called for the destruction of Israel.


The US continuously calls for the destruction of Hamas, Cuba, Hizbullah, Iran, and so forth and does so with far less reason than those countries do in regards to Israel. I see calls for the destruction of the Zionist entity to be like unto calls for the defeat of Nazi Germany. I myself join in the aforementioned calls gladly. I would consider Israel's expulsion of a million Palestinians to certainly be an unprovoked attack, and they hadnt had time to call for the destruction of the state of Israel, so what was their crime?

QUOTE
You're confusing "crimes against humanity" with "trying to wipe out an entire group of people based on their ethnicity or religion."


Ah, so now you're going to claim that the slavery in the American south was not an act of genocide? How far are you going to take this shit? Yes, what the slave trade did was genocide. It largely sought to wipe out African culture by Christianizing the slaves, keeping them from learning to write, and of course forced expulsion and internment.

QUOTE
Forcing people off their land, locking them up and/or destroying their homes is not.


Ok, what is the Deuacon approved term for it? "Happy Nice Time"?

Let's say that some Nazi hunters (by the way, that has to be the coolest job title ever) capture a former lieutenant of the Third Reich. Let us say that his crime was evicting Jews from their houses and putting them upon trains to Buchenwald or wherever they were sent for what you view as the actual genocide. Now, if all he did was expel them from their homes and send them somewhere, by your logic, this man cannot be charged with genocide, murder, or so forth, because he did not participate in genocide. Is this basically correct?

QUOTE
I still disagree that locking up a group of people is genocide... locking up a group of people in a forced labour camp where they are fed next to nothing (which the Israelis haven't done) is a different matter.


Who are you disagreeing with on that point? I don't believe I ever said something of the sort. Maybe you're confusing "locking up" for "forcibly expelling a million arabs and driving them into squalid refugee camps with big fugging walls built around them". The former is not genocide, whereas the latter is. Clear?

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
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