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ZP -- Webcomics Or should this just be a continuation of Yahtzee Vs. Cad?

#76 User is offline   joshofalltrades Icon

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 01:36 PM

QUOTE (FFreak3 @ Jul 6 2008, 06:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
perhaps one of them would address the other's arguments if they actually put forward their actual arguments.


How does this work for you?



Yeah, it's quick and dirty and I made some mistakes in PAINT.NET, but you can't criticize it. Maybe I meant to do it that way and you should support me as the artist because you don't know exactly what direction I want to go in as an artist. Constructive criticism would hurt me.
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#77 User is offline   David-kyo Icon

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 01:44 PM

A lot funnier than the original. See, Buckley is a bit like Bob Dylan in this respect, that is, he creates shit which other people make better.
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#78 User is offline   freiheit Icon

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 02:57 PM

QUOTE (joshofalltrades @ Jul 6 2008, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Maybe I meant to do it that way and you should support me as the artist because you don't know exactly what direction I want to go in as an artist. Constructive criticism would hurt me.


I think you don't quite grasp how retarded some critics are. I've got my sare of "why don't you draw something more manga-like instead? I don't like that style" and "I don't like pink hair, put it an other color". At some point you have, as an artist, to pick which issues you're going to adress and which arn't worth it.

Critics, constructive ones at least, are not about bashing into an artist. When giving a critic, you should be working WITH the artist, not against him, adressing the issues he'd like best first and then adding stuff that might help him reach his goal of a cartoony character, or an hyper-realistic land-scape or a dramatic moment etc.

Here's my 2cent;

-Don't bother giving a critic to someone who isn't willing to fix the issues right away. Critics are as precious as the drawings themselves, if you're going to invest time, do so on someone who's accually willing to fix his issues directly on the piece itself not "note them for the next drawing he/she does".

-Don't give a critic in a format (like emailing the person) where you can't read all the previous critics he/she received because even when you know it's done with the best of intentions, it's agravating to hear 10 times the same thing when you've already started adressing the issue.

-Try to estimate if the issue you're about to adress is worth it. There's ALWAYS something to fix about a drawing, but not everything is worth it.

take these for exemple;


If you'd wanted to nit-pick, the arm with the gun pointing up still has issues and the gun pointing toward us could be bigger... but all the major issues have been worked out and at this point, it's better to start on the colors then waist more time on fixing minor issues. You can always give critics on the smaller issues, but know that depending on the artist's schedual, they might get discarded. Issues should always be worked from the most bothering one to the least.

Conctructive critics should contain two points; the problem area, and how to fix it. It's not constructive if you can't tell how to fix the issue.

and well, lol your version is accually funny while the original wasn't..
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#79 User is offline   Patch Icon

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 07:35 PM

QUOTE (Ghello @ Jul 7 2008, 01:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you can say something right it can be funny, look at George Carlin, his "Stuff" routine wouldn't be funny unless it was actually Carlin saying it. I could read it and probably laugh because I have that routine memorized and know Carlins voice, he uses his voice and facial exp​ressions to pull off the routine. If I read that without ever seeing Carlin in my life I probably would get a slight chuckle at best. Yahtzee talks fast, yes, it adds to the comedic factor, hes also a better writer which I hope you can atleast agree with me on, he also has a slide of humoreous pictures to match the things hes saying to add to the overall comedic factor.

If you give me links to CADs that are written aswell as ZP (I don't know why you're comparing these things) I will look at them all and give you my thoughts on them, some game comics he does have been funny, but not enough overall to make much a difference.

I will more then happily concede the point about the slide show adding comedic effect, though I have an argument for that. I will even go as far to concede that I shouldn't compare mediums, as they are completely different.

But, the point I wanted to get across is that because I enjoy a pun does not mean I have simple, easy to please humour. It just means I can enjoy the pun. Just because Just because I enjoyed a movie you would consider boring does not mean I am boring, or that I have easy to please tastes.

That was the point I meant to get accross, but I accidentally went on a tangeant.

Edit: I think you've well and truly lost me, Josh. I can no longer follow your arguments/criticism. I can't tell what you're trying to do anymore. Are you trying to say that Buckly does this?
QUOTE
Yeah, it's quick and dirty and I made some mistakes in PAINT.NET, but you can't criticize it. Maybe I meant to do it that way and you should support me as the artist because you don't know exactly what direction I want to go in as an artist. Constructive criticism would hurt me.

This post has been edited by Patch: 06 July 2008 - 07:43 PM

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#80 User is offline   Uszi Icon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 08:07 AM

QUOTE (Ghello @ Jul 4 2008, 04:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Uszi from The Escapist"


QUOTE
Yahtzee just likes to piss people off.
That's the most valid conclusion you can take from this. I feel if he hadn't specifically mentioned the miscarriage it would be one thing, but this is Yahtzee using the escapist money to launch a personal attack on someone he's been building a grudge against for months.

Next, he'll dedicate an entire ZP to endorsing an American Presidential candidate.



You can say that stuff here if you want.

Even if he has a grudge it didn't make his points any less vaild.


I guess I got burned.

Any time I comment on the actually ZP videos themselves, it's always heat of the moment and never thought out. For instance, I spent quite a bit of time pointlessly dredging up game play videos to defend my views that Smash Bros is not a button smasher.

By the time I got to FR, though, I realized it really wasn't worth my time, and I wasn't particularly in the mood to debate those sentiments (If anyone responded to me on the Escapist, I did not know about it). I think I posted once more in the ZP comment section, I later on in the same day.


-------------------------------

None of that is to say that I wish to back done from that view point. I'm assuming your post, Ghello, was a request for me to restate and defend that argument here. So I'll explain what I meant:

My point wasn't so much that the criticisms were not valid (they were and still are), but that I wasn't sure that I was prepared to accept Zero Punctuation as an extension of Yahtzee's blogging sphere.

The difference between the webcomics review and all of the previous ones was the degree of professionalism. All the earlier ones were either specific assignments from The Escapist, or they were done as part of the greater assignment, to review games. I even think the Mail bag showdown fits into this category: it was still video game related, it was relevant to his reviews, and it was professionally done (Yahtzee's particular flavor of professionalism, but hell that's what we want to watch).


The webcomics review on the other hand pushes us into a gray area in between funny, professional reviews/critiques coming from Yahtzee, and a nastier zone of Yahtzee bitching about whatever he wants to at the time. Like I said in my original post, I don't mean that it's some sort of jump off the deep end; for me, it would have been perfectly fine without the miscarriage reference. That's what made the change: it went from "veiled-criticism-of-CAD-while-still-credibly-remaining-a-criticism-of-webcomics-in-general" TO "thinly-though-not-really-thinly-veiled-criticism-of-Buckley."

My argument is that there is an enormous, unfunny world of difference between the former and the latter. And that after that review you have to concede that Yahtzee's first goal was not to make us laugh, but rather to piss off one specific person and perhaps his fan base.


My first qualification: Yahtzee is perfectly entitled to soap box here at FR, or in any of the media he creates for the site, or at any of the panels he does.*

My second qualification: Maybe it also rubbed me the wrong way because it was also a total rehash of things we have already heard from Yahtzee. I don't care enough about CAD or Buckley to want periodic updates from Yatzee reaffirming his unchanging hatred for B^U.


*Unless of course they tell him the panel is on a specific topic, like, say, video game reviews, and Yahtzee begins to bitch about how much he hates Buckley's guts. That would also be, IMHO, unprofessional.

This post has been edited by Uszi: 07 July 2008 - 08:14 AM

Do the Evolution!
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#81 User is offline   Papas Icon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 10:41 AM

QUOTE (freiheit @ Jul 6 2008, 06:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, 3 reasons really;

1-you can enjoy something made by someone stupid/questionable....no really... You'd have to stop yourself from doing a lot of things if you were to stop only at wether it's author is nice or not.


There's a definite correlation between bad people and bad deeds, if not a causality. Even so I've tried to seperate my arguments against Tim Buckley the shit artist and Tim Buckley the shit human being.

QUOTE
2- Because something being bad doesn't make it okay to invent more bad stuff about it. Stick to the accual facts (which in your case might be what you have done as I was not arguing with you and haven't read all you've said up until now)


This is called "criticism" and is a valid exercise.

QUOTE
3- Sincerly? I started reading CAD because it had a good enough bad joke/good joke ratio at the start and I can see why someone would enjoy it... So I'm a bit taken aback at how you all say it's the source of all evil. It's not great, I'll agrea, but for god's sake, it's not that horrible either.


Then you have terrible taste in webcomics and a terrible sense of humour, and deserve thoroughly to be laughed off the internet.
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#82 User is offline   freiheit Icon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 03:01 PM

QUOTE (Papas @ Jul 7 2008, 10:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There's a definite correlation between bad people and bad deeds, if not a causality. Even so I've tried to seperate my arguments against Tim Buckley the shit artist and Tim Buckley the shit human being.

Like I said, I haven't read all you've said, I argued against someone who didn't make the difference between tim the bad person and CAD the bad comic.

QUOTE (Papas @ Jul 7 2008, 10:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is called "criticism" and is a valid exercise.


since when is inventing bullshit "criticism"? mellow.gif you've lost me there.

QUOTE (Papas @ Jul 7 2008, 10:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Then you have terrible taste in webcomics and a terrible sense of humour, and deserve thoroughly to be laughed off the internet.


I do have a terrible sense of humour, but my tastes are quite fine rolleyes.gif I didn't say CAD is good , I'm just saying it's not the source of all evil you guys describe it to be... Unless you're willing to tell me CAD is indeed the worst webcomic on the net presently...to which I would respond you need to read more comics.
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#83 User is offline   Papas Icon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 03:45 PM

QUOTE (freiheit @ Jul 7 2008, 09:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Like I said, I haven't read all you've said, I argued against someone who didn't make the difference between tim the bad person and CAD the bad comic.


Fair enough.

QUOTE
since when is inventing bullshit "criticism"? mellow.gif you've lost me there.


Since when am I guilty of that?

QUOTE
I do have a terrible sense of humour, but my tastes are quite fine rolleyes.gif I didn't say CAD is good , I'm just saying it's not the source of all evil you guys describe it to be... Unless you're willing to tell me CAD is indeed the worst webcomic on the net presently...to which I would respond you need to read more comics.


It's the worst in terms of comic quality:number of fans.
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#84 User is offline   freiheit Icon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 03:56 PM

QUOTE (Papas @ Jul 7 2008, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fair enough.



QUOTE (Papas @ Jul 7 2008, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Since when am I guilty of that?


you're not, but your respond implied you might have not read or understood I was adressing "invented" bad stuff or good/unimportant stuff turned into "bad stuff". I wrote;

"...something being bad doesn't make it okay to invent more bad stuff about it."

and you replyed that critic was a valid exercise... I'm gessing you skiped the invent part or had a moment or something xD but my aim wasn't at critics but rather at people inventing stuff when they run out of accual valid things to complain about.

QUOTE (Papas @ Jul 7 2008, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's the worst in terms of comic quality:number of fans.


I don't know, how much fans does penny arcade have? and are we limiting ourselves at heavely gaming horriented comics?

This post has been edited by freiheit: 07 July 2008 - 04:05 PM

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#85 User is offline   joshofalltrades Icon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 04:24 PM

Penny Arcade wins points for a couple reasons, though:

1. They were first.

2. They do what they do relatively well.

I'm not a huge PA fan by any means, but compare the two:

Art style

Penny Arcade

Hand-outlined, penned and inked.

CAD

Photoshop-blurred backgrounds and template characters.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Humor

Penny Arcade

Typically a three-panel joke with the punchline in the final panel.

CAD

Typically a four-panel joke with the punchline in the third panel.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Site extras

Penny Arcade

A video game with a metacritic rating of 77 (Generally Favorable Reviews)

CAD

An animated series with numerous YouTube takedowns and a review from someone who couldn't stand it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I mean, really.
My Let's Play of I Wanna Be The Guy! Do you have the balls?

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The Queen's own English, base knave, dost thou speak it?
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#86 User is offline   freiheit Icon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 04:47 PM

QUOTE (joshofalltrades @ Jul 7 2008, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Art style

Penny Arcade

Hand-outlined, penned and inked.

CAD

Photoshop-blurred backgrounds and template characters.

------------------------------------------------------------------------


I was wondering about that template character stuff though, the last CAD had a nice flow, with different angle to have more of the ziki following tim...er..I meen ethan "feeling".

For the blurred out backgrounds, to be honest, it doesn't count much in my book, it's a way like an other to make sure they don't over-power the characters.

QUOTE (joshofalltrades @ Jul 7 2008, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Humor

Penny Arcade

Typically a three-panel joke with the punchline in the final panel.

CAD

Typically a four-panel joke with the punchline in the third panel.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


that's not true! sometimes there's absolutely no punchlines in CAD!

QUOTE (joshofalltrades @ Jul 7 2008, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Site extras

Penny Arcade

A video game with a metacritic rating of 77 (Generally Favorable Reviews)

CAD

An animated series with numerous YouTube takedowns and a review from someone who couldn't stand it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I mean, really.


77 on gamerankings to, but I heard the game was a bit obscure and that you had to know the comics to really enjoy it. Have you tryed it?
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#87 User is offline   joshofalltrades Icon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 05:58 PM

QUOTE (freiheit @ Jul 7 2008, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
For the blurred out backgrounds, to be honest, it doesn't count much in my book, it's a way like an other to make sure they don't over-power the characters.


Yes, but the backgrounds are acquired on google image search, not drawn or rendered.

QUOTE (freiheit @ Jul 7 2008, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
that's not true! sometimes there's absolutely no punchlines in CAD!


At least we agree on something. I did say typically though.

QUOTE (freiheit @ Jul 7 2008, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
77 on gamerankings to, but I heard the game was a bit obscure and that you had to know the comics to really enjoy it. Have you tryed it?


I never finished it, but it was fun. You don't have to know the comics to enjoy it, but it helps if that's your brand of humor. It's used throughout the game, and the #1 selling point: Ron Gilbert (of Monkey Island fame) helped write and produce it.
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#88 User is offline   Patch Icon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 07:59 PM

QUOTE (joshofalltrades @ Jul 8 2008, 07:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Site extras

Penny Arcade

A video game with a metacritic rating of 77 (Generally Favorable Reviews)

CAD

An animated series with numerous YouTube takedowns and a review from someone who couldn't stand it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's an unfair comparison. You're comparing animations to games. Some people prefer games to animations. Some people hate CAD unanimously. I would even go as far as to say the comparisons are bias.
You need a medium that they both use, the comics. Then you need a critic to go over both comics and say which is the better. That is the only way you can compare that.
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#89 User is offline   joshofalltrades Icon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 09:35 PM

I don't see how it's unfair. The content you pay for can be compared for value. One might make an argument that it's actually more fair to criticize those things because there's money changing hands.

Just because one of them is an apple and the other is an orange doesn't mean that they aren't both fruit and that you didn't pay for them.
My Let's Play of I Wanna Be The Guy! Do you have the balls?

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The Queen's own English, base knave, dost thou speak it?
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#90 User is offline   freiheit Icon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 09:59 PM

yeah but what it takes to make a good game ain't what it takes to make a good animation series. You can't compared a nice looking car to a movie just because you have to pay for both of them, their just not the same thing. wink.gif
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