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ZP -- Webcomics Or should this just be a continuation of Yahtzee Vs. Cad?

#46 User is offline   Walstafa Icon

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 04:25 PM

QUOTE (MagicSwordKing @ Jul 4 2008, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It really is a criticism of terrible gaming comics in its entirety, you can find digs all over the place. Yahtzee takes the opportunity then to prime the cannons and fire on CAD because that really is the worst offender in his eyes, from what I've seen.


Don't get me wrong MSK, I know why he's targetted CAD. I have no problem with him targetting CAD and actually agree with his criticisms of that comic. I can however separate my feelings about CAD from my feelings about ZP's take on the subject.

Possibly the webcomics piece started as an attempt to quantify the worst excesses of the genre with a couple of swipes at CAD as the alpha male of suckiness, but at some point in the production it turned into a rant about CAD with a few generic remarks and name changes to make it look balanced and objective.

This, "I'm talking about this, but I'm not going to actually admit I'm talking about this" bollocks just stinks of a cheap, passive-aggressive attempt at generating controversy during the lean months. I've come to expect a little more straight-shooting from ZP.

QUOTE (MagicSwordKing @ Jul 4 2008, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You Are Wrong Because you are comparing two entirely different entities. There's Zero punctuation as a gaming review/editorial outlet, and then there's this, which I guarantee you he could never get away with sneaking by his corporate paymasters if not for the current title drought.


No, I'm not. If he releases something under the Zero Punctuation banner, then that's Zero Punctuation. It's on the Escapist on a Wednesday, he's talking fast and it says Zero Punctuation at the start. It's like going to Pizza Hut and finding that they've decided to sell burgers this week instead.
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#47 User is offline   joshofalltrades Icon

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 04:28 PM

QUOTE (freiheit @ Jul 4 2008, 11:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
.... I'm a girl, but if you insist on making such a nice lovely first contact, my name is Melanie, nice to meet you. I'm sorry about my bad english, I don't live near anyone who speaks english and the few classes I've had were mediocre, but thank you for helping me improve.


Now from reading the rest of your comment... I'm gessing you know don't know much about the comic industry and you've been more one to enjoy it rather then try getting into it? I'll let you on a little secret; Templates are widely used in every sphere of this industry, from video game concept art to mate painting, comics, book cover illustration and what not. If it's legal and can save you time, then it's used. Sooo... is it good or bad? Well, it's good for the wallet, it's a bit of a let down for people who think it's all made from scratch but as long as you reach your objectives qualety-wise, concept-wise and time wise, I personnally don't see it as "wrong".

You've mentioned seeing Tim's other art and saying he has more "potential" I can't elaborate on that, I haven't seen them. Chances are, he made his decisions by taking in consideration his time limits and the fact getting more pages out per week is, money-wise, more beneficial then having more dynamic or detailed art. Once again, it may be a bit more of a subjective thing regarding wether it's bad or not... On one hand, he'd get more merite out of trying to do something that goes above the masses and always putting his best in his comics... On the other hand, people have absolutely no attention span so he'd loose a big part of his "fan base"/money/ and his time on drawing other stuff then CAD.

My 2cent, if he'd want to get somewhere, and by that I meen somewhere else then the webcomic...He should kill CAD, it's been going on for years now and he has no other comics... Which would lead a lot of publisher to think he had one single idea in his life and he just..you know, got lucky.


but all that aside and because I might have not made my point clear in my first post; like you said, tastes are subjective, and telling someone who has the courage to speak up when he's clearly a minorety that it's okay to like CAD because in our country it's legal to be "wrong" and crap...not only does it not encourage dialog, it's rude and makes you look quite self-righteous.

there, I hope I haven't got anything you said wrong :s if so, feel free to re-adjust.


Oh no, you're a girl, now every point I made is completely invalid because I'm a man and I obviously think with what I keep in my trousers.

Fist of all, to be completely honest, that whole "entitled to be wrong" thing was sarcasm and you weren't intended to take it so darn seriously. The fact that you did, however, says something about your defensiveness.

Secondly, you're using speculation to discuss hard facts with me. Your arguments are coming off as specious, especially when you acknowledge that taste is subjective. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to show you that it's pointless to argue about taste. If there's going to be a dialog on this comic strip, it needs to be objective and objectively it sucks. There are many other people who make a living from comics that don't rely on templates. The man puts together 3 comics a week, and he has said that they take 5 hours apiece to do.

Think about that for a second. The man has a template. If he needs a background, he has it within 3 minutes of googling it. What is he spending 5 hours doing? Does it take him that long to come up with ideas, and if so, why are his ideas so terrible, bloated, and unfunny after 5 hours of chewing it over? He used to do 4 comics a week but decided that 20 hours was just too much work.

So let me put this to you: can you objectively tell me where this comic has artistic merit? Because I have an endless supply of objective arguments that tell me that it does not. Here is the discussion you told me you were trying to encourage, please discuss that with me and not taste.

I'm reminded of a quote:

A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-Antoine de Saint

Think about applying that to CAD for a while.

Finally, I'm not the ignorant Ausländer you might think I am from the spelling corrections I made earlier. I even figured you were from a German-speaking country, judging from your screen name (which is German for "freedom"). I corrected your spelling from a desire to see your argument in its correct written form. The sarcasm, while perhaps a bit rude, was directed at the argument itself, not at your spelling. I do apologize if it offended you overmuch, but if I were to make a mistake while speaking Geman I wouldn't give it a second thought should I be corrected -- I'd rather be corrected than continue to be wrong. And your spelling was much better this time.
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#48 User is offline   freiheit Icon

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 05:13 PM

I'm not german, I know less then 10 german words, but congrats for the sucesful google search(?)

I'm gessing you stand corrected for the use of template and now question the speed at which he works considering the use of short cuts? Well, what do you want me to say? He sucks at production speed? Maybe, how should I know? Ask him how long each part takes him, and then we'll be able to debate it. Though I don't think he has any classes in creation process or writting/comic writting... So my bet it that he puts a 2h in finding out what he's going to do and 3 to draw one or two character set which he'll copy paste... It's not very great considering how simplistic his style is... But if he's any bit like every artist in the world, he has blocks and does things at the same time...which doesn't make time estimation very accurate.

(sorry, no time to fix my mistakes, ill edit later, gtg)
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#49 User is offline   Patch Icon

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 05:42 PM

QUOTE (Walstafa @ Jul 5 2008, 02:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That said though, I still think when he starts using ZP as a vblog for whatever's pissing him off rather than for reviewing games, it's a slipperly slope that ends in him becoming as big a cock as Buckley apparently is.

The annoying thing is, if this week's review has boosted his viewing figures and the Escapist's traffic like I suspect it has, then there's every likelihood we'll see more of this stuff in the future.

What is ZP apart from a video blog about video games. He complains about what he hates. His website also used to be that. It's a fact. Just look through the archives.

QUOTE (joshofalltrades @ Jul 5 2008, 07:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
First of all, to be completely honest, that whole "entitled to be wrong" thing was sarcasm and you weren't intended to take it so darn seriously. The fact that you did, however, says something about your defensiveness.

No, sorry, that was rude. I shouldn't have.
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#50 User is offline   joshofalltrades Icon

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 05:55 PM

Well spotted, Patch.

Freiheit, if that is your real name, what the hell do you mean I stand corrected? You aren't addressing any of my points. I don't have to ask him how long each part takes him, the whole crock of shit is finished in 5 hours and no matter how he divvies that time up he's still a talentless hack. The whole point I was making there was that even though it takes him a long time to put out a worthless piece of crap, he still only works 15 hours a week. That doesn't count the amount of time it takes to get onto his message boards and ban anybody who has useful constructive criticism. It wouldn't surprise me if that was a full-time job in and of itself. The man is a self-righteous egotistical misogynist who sometimes even bans his fans from his forum. Why are you shielding him at all? Do you owe him some sort of loyalty?

And as far as his art is concerned, it's as simple as this: when you make your work appeal to the lowest common denominator, you reduce its potential fractionally.

Your country is listed as "CANADA" which is why I assumed you had some sort of grasp on rudimentary English. Your German screen name led me to believe you had moved there from Germany. To your "googling" assumption, I can only say this: I took 6 years of German through high school and college, so there was no googling necessary.

Remember when you ripped into me for assuming you spoke English, though?

This post has been edited by joshofalltrades: 04 July 2008 - 06:09 PM

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#51 User is offline   HldmeThrllmeChrs&Trlby Icon

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 10:00 PM

She didnt address your points because their all gay.
i really dont ok?
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#52 User is offline   freiheit Icon

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Posted 04 July 2008 - 10:02 PM

Well, if we'd wanted to be more precise, I live in Quebec, a 90% french province that makes it's living on blaming the english part of Canada for everything that's wrong in the world. I know about 6 or 7 german word, blushing.gif most of which are from a quote in a book I had to read for school (which had freiheit) a word who had the advantage of not always be taken in forums and art sites.


Okay, go through what I've just said in my previous posts and try and find a part where I talk about Tim as a person. Have I said he was a good person? No. Have I tryed to defend that he's not an ass? No, I wouln't know, I never met or even attempted to speak to the guy.

"what the hell do you mean I stand corrected"

you've used his "using templates" as a an argument against his work, I argued the whole god damn comic industry uses templates and then you changed your argument to how long it takes him to produce his pages rather then try to keep on arguing against his use of templates.

" up he's still a talentless"

How can you say that when earlier on you admited that from seeing his other work he had talent or "potential" as you call it? Isn't it contradictory?


"when you make your work appeal to the lowest common denominator, you reduce its potential fractionally."

Yes, but don't mix art and buisness. Though some illustrators are artists, most of them arn't. The major part of the illustration and comic buisness is technician work.

Now, would you agree that if he putted more time into his drawings to bring them to the state of those you though had more "potential" considering all the time it takes him to make a simplistic page, that he'd loose more then he'd win from a financial standart?

@HldmeThrllmeChrs&Trlby; wow...what a genious... did you write all of that by your self or did you mom help? ^^; responding to someone with an insult and no argument isn't very good for your image, sorry.

This post has been edited by freiheit: 04 July 2008 - 10:06 PM

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#53 User is offline   joshofalltrades Icon

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 12:06 AM

QUOTE (freiheit @ Jul 4 2008, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, if we'd wanted to be more precise, I live in Quebec, a 90% french province that makes it's living on blaming the english part of Canada for everything that's wrong in the world. I know about 6 or 7 german word, blushing.gif most of which are from a quote in a book I had to read for school (which had freiheit) a word who had the advantage of not always be taken in forums and art sites.


Well, if I had to blame one part of the world for everything, it wouldn't be Canada. No matter what Trey Parker says. Good to finally have you pinpointed, at least.

QUOTE (freiheit @ Jul 4 2008, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Okay, go through what I've just said in my previous posts and try and find a part where I talk about Tim as a person. Have I said he was a good person? No. Have I tryed to defend that he's not an ass? No, I wouln't know, I never met or even attempted to speak to the guy.


You don't really need to have met him to know that there's an overabundance of douchebaggery involved. Like I said, he bans his own fans from his forums. He has threatened to sue a high school kid for making a little tribute video for his art class. There is evidence that he was tampering with his own wikipedia articles, trying to make it look like someone vandalized them and then he would pretend to be someone else sticking up for Tim. The list goes on and on. So it's a good thing that you're not trying to defend him, because there's nothing much that's defensible.

QUOTE (freiheit @ Jul 4 2008, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
you've used his "using templates" as a an argument against his work, I argued the whole god damn comic industry uses templates and then you changed your argument to how long it takes him to produce his pages rather then try to keep on arguing against his use of templates.


This is either hyperbole or you just don't know -- most comic strip writers actually hand draw everything. If you are referring to webcomics, then you're correct, but you'll also notice that nearly the entire webcomic medium is filled with comics that are mediocre at best and eye-gougingly horrible at worst.

For instance, Calvin and Hobbes. Hand-drawn, cerebral, and highly entertaining. Other hand-drawn comics: Garfield, The Far Side, Peanuts, and even Penny Arcade is known to hand-draw and ink its own comics from time to time.

So in this case, I sidestepped the template argument because it isn't valid. The vast majority of (good) comics are hand-drawn.

QUOTE (freiheit @ Jul 4 2008, 10:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How can you say that when earlier on you admited that from seeing his other work he had talent or "potential" as you call it? Isn't it contradictory?


He has talent as an artist, sure, even though he chooses not to use it. The context I was going for there is that he has no talent as a writer. He can't write a joke to save his life, and when he attempts to do drama it comes off hackneyed and cliché. I'm not being contradictory because I was talking about something else when I said he had talent. If you were a great doctor but terrible at dancing, I might point out that you can't dance, but it doesn't mean you don't have other abilities.

Finally, the art and business thing. Selling out is great and all, but there's a difference between making a living off of your work and doing the bare minimum required to overcharge people for your work. I think Buckley may be the Thomas Kinkade of webcomics. It's not so bad that the people who can't tell quality won't buy it, but anybody who has (I'm trying to put this delicately) an appreciation for subtlety and artistic merit won't give it the time of day.

I also want you to know that I'm really not trying to egg you on or purposefully make you upset at me. I want to try and get you to see where I'm coming from on this.

This post has been edited by joshofalltrades: 05 July 2008 - 12:07 AM

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#54 User is offline   Thaluikhain Icon

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 12:58 AM

I thought this was a bit disappointing...in that I actually enjoy gaming webcomics, but very little of what he described applied to the ones I lke. Maybe I need to look at more shitty ones.

Though, he did have 8 bit theatre in the beginning and I like that.

*Copy and paste tha above a few times till it is of sufficient lengthy for a reply in this topic wink.gif
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#55 User is offline   Patch Icon

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 01:26 AM

I think the sprite comic joke was pitched more at people who don't know what they're doing. 8 Bit Theatre is a high quality sprite based webcomic. I would even go as far as to say so was Bob and George (the original sprite based webcomic), at least a couple of years in it is.

I suddenly hate Thomas Kinkade.

Much respect to peanuts.
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#56 User is offline   MagicSwordKing Icon

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 02:22 AM

Alright I just want to state something, from opinion, but opinion that most people can probably agree with:

There is a COMIC INDUSTRY that includes Marvel, DC, Image, Dark Horse, and the syndication groups.

There is a WEBCOMIC BUSINESS that includes Penny Arcade, PvP, Megatokyo, and a couple others

Finally there is a WEBCOMIC COMMUNITY that includes everything else in comic-strip form published on the internet, and there are clearly delineated differences.

The comic industry is an industry, they are vast corporate entities. The webcomic business sometimes has ties to the comic industry but they are independently owned and operated businesses that produce comics on the internets.

The webcomic community can share traits with the webcomic business, and in rare cases have ties to the Comic Industry, but the difference is that they do not run businesses, they run websites, and are often dependent on cross-promotion from other websites to survive and flourish. This is where the drama occurs because once you graduate to the next level, you OPT OUT of the drama as a business decision. If by any chance anyone makes it to the level of industry, they'd not only opt out of the pointless drama of the bottom level, they'd buy everything that was any good from the lower tiers and strongarm the creators into shutting the fuck up even if people liked them.

CAD and everything else lampooned by Yahtzee is not a part of the COMICS INDUSTRY it is a part of the Webcomic Community, the people who look at Penny Arcade's riches and say "hey I'd like a piece of that". Trust me, I know this system well. There is a damn good reason why the Penny Arcade folks stay out of the affairs of other comics, it is because they have transcended it. Scott Kurtz is the exception to the rule because he opts back into the drama purely by nature of his personality. Still, though, if you compare his earlier days of rabble-rousing to his current public face, you'll see a significant change in the tone.

I am not going to post again in this thread because at this point I've gotten through to everyone I want to get through to and everyone else is fucking retarded if they don't get it (not necessarily agree with it) by now.

Pardon my French.
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#57 User is offline   freiheit Icon

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 12:28 PM

Garfield? that's old school these guys can draw their comic strips in less the 5 minutes xD and yeah, older comic illustrator will usually stick to the means that they had back then with ink and markers. That said, in our days, a lot of the work is done digitaly. I can tell you from speaking to illustrators and art directors at IGDA meetings that it isn't uncomon to model a character in 3D and paintover it when it comes to complicated poses and angles. The video-game industry is very highly centered towards efficiancy and results. I've also enjoyed in imagineFX's 31th magazine a lovely workshop on the creation of comic pages where I learned about google's sketchup. A 3D program for dummies where you can create an environement in minutes and find that perfect angle for your panel, then all you've got left to do is paintover....and mangas? well mangas are made out of bazillion of templates.

regarding the "over charge"... I haven't payed a single penny for CAD...have you? dry.gif people arn't buying his books out of curiosety, they're buying them because they want a paper copy of what they've read, and I can see why, I like having all my music cds as much as my books, it looks nice on a shelf xD

Tim's comic is popular because of it's context; he was one of the first to make a profession out of webcomics, along with penny arcade, 8bit threaters and selected few others. From what I've seen, the number of pages you can make a week affects the popularety of your comic much more then what ever's in it. Having a subject like video-games made it easy for him to; there's always a new game to feed you "ideas" and then most gamers know about internet...duh...but I'm pretty sure a web comic about porn would work wonders to, anyone who owns internet does so for porn at some point o_o

but you're making such a big deal out of it all, maybe I'm just to mellow, but you really shouln't waiste so much time on hating CAD.
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#58 User is offline   Papas Icon

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE (freiheit @ Jul 5 2008, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Garfield? that's old school these guys can draw their comic strips in less the 5 minutes xD and yeah, older comic illustrator will usually stick to the means that they had back then with ink and markers. That said, in our days, a lot of the work is done digitaly. I can tell you from speaking to illustrators and art directors at IGDA meetings that it isn't uncomon to model a character in 3D and paintover it when it comes to complicated poses and angles. The video-game industry is very highly centered towards efficiancy and results. I've also enjoyed in imagineFX's 31th magazine a lovely workshop on the creation of comic pages where I learned about google's sketchup. A 3D program for dummies where you can create an environement in minutes and find that perfect angle for your panel, then all you've got left to do is paintover....and mangas? well mangas are made out of bazillion of templates.


This is cool, and all, but not sure how it fits in, unless you're trying to justify the fact that of the supposed five hours Tim spends on a comic, four are spent wanking, twenty minutes on writing, twenty minutes pasting together from the templates he made in 2003, and another twenty minutes cleaning up. That said, the videogaming industry isn't a webcomic.

QUOTE
regarding the "over charge"... I haven't payed a single penny for CAD...have you? dry.gif people arn't buying his books out of curiosety, they're buying them because they want a paper copy of what they've read, and I can see why, I like having all my music cds as much as my books, it looks nice on a shelf xD


Is this the fabled "You didn't pay anything for it, you can't criticise it" argument heap of shit?

QUOTE
Tim's comic is popular because of it's context; he was one of the first to make a profession out of webcomics, along with penny arcade, 8bit threaters and selected few others. From what I've seen, the number of pages you can make a week affects the popularety of your comic much more then what ever's in it. Having a subject like video-games made it easy for him to; there's always a new game to feed you "ideas" and then most gamers know about internet...duh...but I'm pretty sure a web comic about porn would work wonders to, anyone who owns internet does so for porn at some point o_o


I like the freudian fashion in which you kind of trailed off into rambling about porn, but other than that I can't seem to find anything of substance here either.

QUOTE
but you're making such a big deal out of it all, maybe I'm just to mellow, but you really shouln't waiste so much time on hating CAD.


Have you seen this recent comic?



Don't try and tell me this took longer than ten minutes from start to finish. That's a whole four hours and fifty minutes he spent masturbating. Even the French work more hours than Tim Buckley.
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#59 User is offline   freiheit Icon

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Post icon  Posted 05 July 2008 - 04:57 PM

QUOTE (Papas @ Jul 5 2008, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This is cool, and all, but not sure how it fits in, unless you're trying to justify the fact that of the supposed five hours Tim spends on a comic, four are spent wanking, twenty minutes on writing, twenty minutes pasting together from the templates he made in 2003, and another twenty minutes cleaning up. That said, the videogaming industry isn't a webcomic.


This fits in with him telling me that because Bill Watterson or Jim Davis doesn't use template, no one does. When I know others do and have seen numerous professionnal do so.

QUOTE (Papas @ Jul 5 2008, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is this the fabled "You didn't pay anything for it, you can't criticise it" argument heap of shit?


no accually...this would be the fabled ; something free, by definition, can't be over-priced....for better understanding, read joshofalltrades's previous post.

QUOTE (Papas @ Jul 5 2008, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Have you seen this recent comic?



Don't try and tell me this took longer than ten minutes from start to finish. That's a whole four hours and fifty minutes he spent masturbating. Even the French work more hours than Tim Buckley.


I doubt it took him more then 10 minutes, accually, I doubt many of his comics really take 5h, but my friend joshofalltrades said they do..or at least Tim buckley say they do.

oh, and one last thing.

QUOTE (Papas @ Jul 5 2008, 02:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I like the freudian fashion in which you kind of trailed off into rambling about porn, but other than that I can't seem to find anything of substance here either.


Well I like the internet-like fashion in which you've replyed to my post with out reading the whole discussion and therefore are completely off with every single thing I've said so far rolleyes.gif next time be careful.
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#60 User is offline   Ghello Icon

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Posted 05 July 2008 - 05:25 PM

I don't understand that comic, is the joke really just him being Alone in the Dark? God I hope not.
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