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KOTOR2 as opposed to the PT It's right where the movies are wrong

#1 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 26 May 2008 - 01:08 PM

[KOTOR2 Spoilers]
So, I've been kicking the tar out of KOTOR2, but what really struck me after beating it was, jebus, this is a tale of subtle manipulation and corruption that kicks the living shit out of the prequel trilogy. For those not familiar, the villain is actually a party member named Kreia. Through fairly subtle manipulation she ensures the main character's safety, draws out her enemies among the Sith and the Jedi, and more than that she confused even me, not to mention the character I was playing, with some of the questions she proffered.

For instance, there's a part of the game where you're approached by what is essentially a space bum who asks for money. If you give it to him, Kreia points out that gaining something one hasnt earned begets jealousy and weakens the recipient, and then theres a cut scene of the guy getting mugged.

Its one of her big things that helping others prevents them from fighting their own battles and therefore weakens them.

She also manages to take control of an evil wookie and turn a Jedi historian to the dark side in the course of the game, even if the protagonist resists her snares.

So, yeah, I think KOTOR2 got right a whole lot of the things that the prequels got wrong, especially in the fields of subtlety and manupulation.

Anyone else think the PT could have borrowed a lot from the writers of KOTOR2, or anyone disagree? I know this came out after or in the middle of the PT, but the fact that there was talent like this involved somewhere in the Lucas Arts world says that they could have probably tapped some of it. And, really, it kind of sucks when your trilogy of feature films has their plot out-done by a video game.

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#2 User is offline   Storm Shadow Icon

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 08:54 AM

I completely agree. Kreia's philosophy regarding the Force was some heavy stuff. The whole dilemma about right vs. wrong and the adverse effects of being a good Samaritan was relative food for thought, especially for a piece of Star Wars property. If you really wanted to, you could make a spectacular trilogy out of the entire first KOTOR, provided a competent director with respect for the franchise were given free reign.

It truly is a sad state of affairs when there are literally hundreds of better writers out there looking to enhance the Star Wars brand and keep it moving forward in a more mature direction, but Lucas is content with being stagnant and raking in the dough.

I'm still holding my breath for KOTOR 3 crying.gif
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#3 User is offline   Deucaon Icon

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 10:04 AM

Darth Traya's lessons include:

Giving to others weakens them.
Ethics limit a person's abilities.
A small action has major repercussions down the road.
All life is connected and when you harm or help one person then you harm or help many others.

There are others but I cant remember them since I haven't played the game in ages.
"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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Posted 27 May 2008 - 10:20 AM

QUOTE (Deucaon @ May 27 2008, 11:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Darth Traya's lessons include:

Giving to others weakens them.
Ethics limit a person's abilities.
A small action has major repercussions down the road.
All life is connected and when you harm or help one person then you harm or help many others.

There are others but I cant remember them since I haven't played the game in ages.


Right. I also enjoyed the fact that if you played through as a female Exile (which is considered canon anyways), the Disciple serves as a stark contrast to Kreia's moral musings. For every good natured act you commit that she reprimands you for, he's there to reassure you that you were doing the right thing. No matter what he advises you of, though, there was always a bit of truth to Kreia's words, no matter how morally wrong it may have seemed.

Also, what I found really profound, if you followed the dark path, whatever wisdom Kreia imparts to you, you pass it down to other party members, corrupting their souls and breaking their belief systems for a purpose that isnt even your own. How vile is that? Utter manipulation.

Kreia was pretty much the female version of Emperor Palpatine, albeit a vastly superior written one.
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Posted 27 May 2008 - 11:27 AM

Kreia was faking it.

QUOTE
Now I know many people have already said this, but I'm going to say it again and this time with its own thread. Just to clear it up once and for all.

So was Kreia faking her fight with the Exile? I think so. Why?

Well lets look at the evidence.

Ever since Kreia first met the Exile she was pretending to be weaker then she was, never showing him her power never even using it unless she was alone.

Now why would she do that? Up until the end it was very clear that she was more powerful then the Exile could ever hope to be. She had a reason for it. That reason is Nihilus obviously. It could be nothing else, all her time with the Exile she pushed him forward until that very meeting, when the two sides of the one would collide.

Kreia talks a lot about the Death of the force and how it should all end, I think she hoped that the Exile was the dead of the force, hoping that his confrontation with Nihilus would mean the end of it all, the end of the force and the end of all that made her feel miserable.

Of course it didn't, the second it fails she contacts you and says that she will fight you at the place where it all began, she is disappointed.

Now before that happens we know she has killed three Jedi Masters with the wave of her hand, we know she has dominated Sion into following her again, even though Sion hates her. We have seen her do things with the force that the Exile couldn't even dream off until that time. And far more important then anything else we saw her knock the Exile out easily with just one attack, that she didn't concentrate on.

Now judging by the events after that and the average time for a hyperspace journey I would say the next time they faced would be at the very most 3 days later.

Suddenly Kreia can no longer defeat the Exile her attacks don't even happen, she fights him but loses. She even fights him twice, once she uses her body and loses. But the Exile says something wrong or whatever and Kreia continues the fight like nothing happened. This time relying more on the force to do the work for her (three lightsabers floating in the air)

Yet still somehow she loses, why would she do that? Why would she lose from the Exile in a position like that. Three days earlier she easily knocked him out she easily killed three Jedi Masters.

My opinion is that she knew she could beat him but didn't want to, she was disappointed in him but saw it more as a reason for her own live to end then his.

Now of course you could ask why she wanted the die but the answer for that is easy, she wanted the Exile to come full circle, to lose all ties with what he knew before. She was the one that first told me that you could sacrifice Visas to take out Nihilus. She knew that many others had ties with Revan, she was also the one that send Hanharr after Mira. Making me believe that Mira was the original love character. She also send Handmaiden to Atris, of course Atris didn't kill her because the Exile showed up but it was probably her purpose. Now that would leave Atton and Boa Dur, the last of which if i'm right was supposed to die on the HK factory planet, the same place where the Exile would lose contact with G0-T0. I don't know what Atton was supposed to do or when she planned on having him killed, maybe somebody else does?

Anyways she eliminated (or tried to) all the friends of the Exile that did not once belong to Revan, all that remained was herself. For the Exile to come full circle she would have to die. Now of course she could just simply kill the Exile but that would do two things

1.) Kill somebody she loved
2.) Prevent Revan (somebody she loved) from getting help.

As a last request sort off she told the Exile to find Revan, and he went away to find Revan. She wouldn't want to fight somebody she loved anyways, she cared to much about him to kill him. All things show it, she only ever cared about the Exile all the things she did in Kotor II were for him to make him progress to make him realise things. She loved him, it would have been like killing a child.

So what do you think? Did she fake it or not?

"I felt insulted until I realized that the people trying to mock me were the same intellectual titans who claimed that people would be thrown out of skyscrapers and feudalism would be re-institutionalized if service cartels don't keep getting political favors and regulations are cut down to only a few thousand pages worth, that being able to take a walk in the park is worth driving your nation's economy into the ground, that sexual orientation is a choice that can be changed at a whim, that problems caused by having institutions can be solved by introducing more institutions or strengthening the existing ones that are causing the problems, and many more profound pearls of wisdom. I no longer feel insulted because I now feel grateful for being alive and witnessing such deep conclusions from my fellows."
-Jimmy McTavern, 1938.
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#6 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 12:32 PM

QUOTE
Kreia was pretty much the female version of Emperor Palpatine, albeit a vastly superior written one.


I can hardly imagine what the resulkt of switching the two would have been. All of Kreia's lines would have amounted to "I have given you non descript training and you're doing well." Followed up, just before the battle with Nihilus by "Kill him. Do it." which is the best temptation ever.

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Posted 27 May 2008 - 12:54 PM

Interesting. Never looked at it that way. But now that I think about it, she did say at the end that she would have slaughtered the galaxy to preserve the Exile. happy.gif
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#8 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 06:53 PM

yeah, the only thing missing from KOTOR2 was the LAST FREAKING 20% OF THE GAME!!!

And that was Gelous George's fault. He wanted the game out early.

This post has been edited by barend: 29 May 2008 - 06:55 PM

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#9 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 29 May 2008 - 08:07 PM

I noticed that. In the final planet there are two spots that are no longer there, though they show on the map, and on the smuggler's moon htere's also a few spots that show up on hte map but are inaccessible.

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#10 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 01:02 PM

Hmmm, I haven't played this title in about a year, but the thing I picked up most from it was balance in your actions.

Notice that Kreia couldn't be swayed dark or light, but she was a balanced character able to discern the higher mysteries of the force. I also liked when I was headed down the dark path, she warned me in saying something like, "Don't think that you'll understand the Force better by adhering to the Dark side."

As for the OT and the PT, Lucas wasn't about to make Palpatine like that because he wanted a definitive villain. Also, with the character Mace Windu, he was the only one to be balanced (hence purple light saber) but again, Lucas wasn't going to meddle in grays, but instead black and white, but in this case, red and blue.

Kreia in my opinion was a flawless character that knew the Force through and through. She didn't need to be evil or good because absolute balance was her strength. And remember, after every confrontation or level complete, she'd meditate on the ship and say, "I need to center myself." Awesome!

Kreia only praised you, (the main character) when you did things that earned you both light and dark points. Example: Manipulation of the mercs on Dantooine. Kreia was wise, cunning, deceptive, and possessed insight and foresight, and it was these traits that she wanted the Exile to pick up on the most so that you saw "beyond good and evil."

This post has been edited by Vesuvius: 16 June 2008 - 01:04 PM

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#11 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 03:19 PM

Kreia was selfish, callous, and kind of a dick a lot of times. Regardless she also clearly felt affection beyond just being able to use people, and she was a very human sort of evil. However I have to say that between her training Revan, and her actions in the end, plus the fact that she was a Sith Lord 2 times over, she is decidedly dark side, if not truly evil.

And yeah I know that Palpatine shouldnt have been based upon an archetype like Kreia, but my point is that for the first 2 and a half movies he's supposed to be this subtle manipulator, but we never really see it. He sucks at temptation and his arguments are only accepted because Anakid is a dumbtard. Kreia on the other hand actually often tricks/talks the player in KOTOR into getting darkside points just because she has good arguments that aren't clearly evil.

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#12 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 05:56 PM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 16 2008, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Kreia was selfish, callous, and kind of a dick a lot of times. Regardless she also clearly felt affection beyond just being able to use people, and she was a very human sort of evil. However I have to say that between her training Revan, and her actions in the end, plus the fact that she was a Sith Lord 2 times over, she is decidedly dark side, if not truly evil.



Ha ha haaa, She was dark side and knew that eventually she had to be dealt with as with all of the Sith Lords. But she would have also prefered the Exile to not cleave to a specific side. It does seem as if she wants you to go dark side, but she really wants you to embrace all facets of the Force so that you can wield anything in any situation. Notice her admiraton of the Exile because he/she could live without the Force whereas any other Jedi or Sith would be as "unskilled children without it." Also, Kreia liked Revan because of his use of the Dark side only for the power it gave him to achieve a goal that would actually help the galaxy. Thus Kreia's comment on Revan "Falling to the Dark side?" No, he didn't "fall" he used power where power was needed. Malak however was a power hungery brute that didn't know much. Like Sion, kind of, and Nihilus. They were just "the bad guys" without a motive except personal gain or senseless brutality.

Being completely capable of doing anything at all through self reliance was what I got from Kreia. And although she does sound very callous and evil at times, she was pointing out truths that enabled the Exile to do away with "taking sides," that is, if you actually played the game without adhering to the Light or Dark side. Kriea's teaching were about not really being selfish, but knowing how and when to use as much or as little power when actually needed. Truthfully, what the Jedi should have been doing all along. Instead of sitting back and "meditating" all durring war, there should have been action done by those with the power to do something. Revan new the opportunities and embraced them with the Dark Side, violent power to resolve conflict immediately. Light side Jedi thought "peace" would bring favorable answers...

As stated in the game, "Revan. Won. The. War." He manipulated the Force to achieve a goal, instead of letting a specific "side" or "denomiation" tell him what to do. This is what Kriea was trying to get across the Exile.

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#13 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 03:45 AM

Kreia wanted to master the force, but she was unable even to control Nihilus and Sion. She became bitter and decided to destroy it out of revenge. For her betrayal she begat more betrayal. She also helped Atris' fall to the dark side, and that was definately a fall no matter what you say. So yeah, I'm still convinced that Kreia was evil, but the other thing to note is that it's a very human evil, not a cartoonish evil as we normally get in Starwars. The simple fact that her true alignment can be debated is more than anything a testament to some great writing and character development.

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#14 User is offline   Vesuvius Icon

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 09:04 PM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 21 2008, 04:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So yeah, I'm still convinced that Kreia was evil, but the other thing to note is that it's a very human evil, not a cartoonish evil as we normally get in Starwars. The simple fact that her true alignment can be debated is more than anything a testament to some great writing and character development.


Awesome! Yeah, when I think of Palps in Ep III, he's a fool and his acting is out of the window. He's not even deceptive. It's simply because Anakin is a moron that he's "tricked."

With Kreia, we could go on and on. I don't disagree with you that she is evil, I just saw that her lessons were somewhat ambiguous, and that the best way for the Jedi order to exist would be to get rid of "good" and "evil" and have fully powerfull beings that did what was needed for the galaxy.

As for the great writing and character development, flawless. Visas still has to be my favorite character in the game.
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#15 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 10:11 PM

Ah as for her teachings, yeah I gotta agree they seemed to be pretty balanced.

But the problem with that idea is that it would have cost me my bonus and crystal bonuses if I'd listened to the old witch. Fuck you, Kreia I WANT that +3!

Aside from that though, even if she didnt really turn you, she did move you within her plan very subtly, and didnt need to amass several different armies and organizations to do it. My favorite character was probably the horned guy, whose name escapes me for the moment. I never did get to turn him into a Jedi though. dang.

I need to play through the game and not level anyone up til I turn them. Then we will be unstoppabible.

I do have to say though that not letting me have my team, that I spent the entire game housebreaking to the ways of the Jedi, for hte final battle is just lamery.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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