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Crates of Babies All hands and hooks on deck, ye scurvy critics!

#1 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 10:50 AM

Right. mellow.gif

I'm not really going to say much about the story right now, since I want to play through GFW again first before reading it.

Not a dumb one, that Mr. Yahtzee, I must say. Got people interested in his stories and characters again and quickly jumped at the opportunity to get them to play through his more overlooked brainchild. Well, fair enough, I guess he earned that much...


... so please do excuse me for a while, it'll probably take me a few days until I'm done with that game.

This post has been edited by Gobbler: 28 March 2008 - 10:51 AM

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#2 User is offline   FFreak3 Icon

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 02:52 PM

QUOTE (Gobbler @ Mar 28 2008, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
. . . play through his more overlooked brainchild. . .


Have I said before that I think that AGFW was Yahtzee's most enjoyable game to date? Well, it is.

This post has been edited by FFreak3: 28 March 2008 - 02:52 PM

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#3 User is offline   arien Icon

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Posted 28 March 2008 - 03:47 PM

QUOTE (FFreak3 @ Mar 28 2008, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Have I said before that I think that AGFW was Yahtzee's most enjoyable game to date? Well, it is.

It just takes the longest and has the most boring parts in it. Otherwise, it's awesome.
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#4 User is offline   DreamerM Icon

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 03:14 AM

QUOTE (FFreak3 @ Mar 28 2008, 07:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Alright, I really quite like the fact that Yahtzee has been writing stories for the website as of late.

It brings me back to the days when writing was what his website was about. That, and crappy web comics that never-the-less succeeded in making a good joke, on occasion.

That being said . . .
Although it's hard to judge a trend from two stories, Yahtzee seems to have taken the exact same theme and put it in with two different universes.
"Let's find a position that these people have never been in before, then solve it by making them jackasses."
Trilby got rid of the ghost by asshole-ish trickery, the Elaborate Gesture ate due to asshole-ish trickery.

Basically, the over-riding character attributes so far seem the same. Yahtzee's using the same methods and techniques to advance the plot and stuff.
I barely know what I'm talking about here.

My worry is that the similarities will continue to pile on as he writes more stories, while at the current moment, it may just be a coincidence or result of getting back into writing stories after a long break.

edit:
If cerberus comes in here and tells me that i have no right to criticize Yahtzee, he's probably right.


^^^posted here because I think we should keep the topic of the story to one thread if we possibly can. Clutter is for desks and for closet floors, not for forum pages. So says momma me.

I'm reviewing this as someone who has not played the games, so if that makes my opinion moot then just skip over the following.

As someone who has never played the games it was almost impossible to keep all the characters straight in my head. No doubt someone who had played the games would not have this problem, but not only are we never introduced properly to the characters, we're not told anything about them either. Character has to be built-up by heresay, by observation rather then explaination and while that can work just fine (see "The Three Musketeers" for the most famous example of this kind of portraiture), unless it's integrated into the action it can leave the reader feeling lost.

Here's what I managed to gather: Eric is nice (and small), Dan is "ever the everyman," Hole is a thug, Bromide is a girl without pupils who reminds me of Rose from "The Search for Something" in that shes the kind of Woman in Power who is more One of the Guys then a genuine leader who sometimes rolls her eyes but usually defers to her crew's choices.

Again, playing the games might change those perceptions, but this is the call with what I got here.

....That's really all I can say about the characters with the information I got. Not that it really seemed to matter if I couldn't tell them apart: the Crew was essentially a single character with different, intermingling voices.

Which leads me to the next issue: overdescription of dialog.

Most of the action in this story is dialog. That's where the drama is coming from: the "what are we going to do with the babies" problem. Awesome as the concept of Murderous Polite Society Ladies are, I'm not sure what point they served in the end: the story could have left that action out entirely and it wouldn't have much affected the story's outcome. Seems kinda like it was there just to raise the stakes, but when baby eating is on the line, everything else seems kinda unimportant, even space dog fights.

The people very "said" anything in this story. It's always: "repeated," "went," "droned," "Shhed," "coughed" and lots of "-ly" words there to break things up which is fine when I haven't just stopped listening to someone talk and it's usually clear enough what they meant.

All around I think the Trilby story was superior to this one, if just because it was more accessible: only one character was a game left-over, and his set-up only took a paragraph or so and the rest was new, the conflict was a simple one, everything there was there for a reason and the twist ending made perfect sense even if it was shocking when it happened: it was in keeping with all we had learned about the situation and the characters involved.

Here, the same sort of Massiah Backstabber strikes again, but due to the diffusion of responsibility for the betrayal and the weaker characterization, it doesn't work as well. These guys are inept mercenaries who require enemy attacks to even rattle some professionalism out of them, they're not painted as particularly cunning or ruthless, and it seems to just come out of nowhere.

Where Trilby's professional pride won the day, for the Crew the real winner was their stomachs. And I find that rather weak.

Sorry about the rambling, it's late late late late....
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#5 User is offline   FFreak3 Icon

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 06:56 AM

QUOTE (DreamerM @ Mar 29 2008, 04:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Where Trilby's professional pride won the day, for the Crew the real winner was their stomachs. And I find that rather weak.


I think you summed up the characters/flavour of the game quite nicely here. Play the game, you'll understand.


You also described the individual characters pretty well, so let me give you a bit more detail.

Daniel is an earthing who was captured to be a red shirt, which are sent down to dangerous planets to accomplish missions, as in star trek.

Hole is the invisible guy . . . except for his eyebrows. He has been pissed off his entire life, but really has a softer interior then his words bely . . . which isn't hard.

Eric is an animated toupee. Imagine a cute, sentient puppy dog. That's about what eric is.

Bromide is their leader, and is memory drained the majority of the game, even after you find her. Unless you get the secret stuff, she basically sits there and does nothing. (.: I don;t know her personality).

This post has been edited by FFreak3: 29 March 2008 - 06:57 AM

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#6 User is offline   Fir Icon

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 09:38 AM

Thanks for the read. I've written a thesis on the topic for you to save time not reading, in return.

I feel that this story was by nature a mix of animation/comic with prose. Some of the best things about it you couldn't have done with pictures, unless you go for truly extensive talk-bubbling which is justifiable cause for authorcide in many civilized countries. But I also think some of the worst things about it would have fit right in with pictures, moving or still. Particularly the witty dialogue sections with little in between referred to earlier.

Don't get me wrong. Whenever a *comic* writer tries to do something witty with prose splashes, I pull my hair and empathetically wish they'd pick a genre and stick with it already (expressed with a "GRRAAAGGHH!"). Comics are supposed to be about the visual element; for book-reading, I prefer continuous black neat text on white without distractions. On the other hand I notice that a mix of talk-bubblish dialogue with prose doesn't bother me half as much. It feels a bit like they're the draft for parts where the story's just not quite finished yet. I'm used to it like I'm used to having strange relatives, since it's the format I occasionally dream in.

I don't know any of the characters from before either, sorry. Hence it was a bit difficult to keep track of who was who - except for Hole, who my imagination bonded with immediately. I've seen enough invisible or partially invisible people gags in comics to last a lifetime, but putting one in prose made my brain twist in a quite pleasurable way. I'd like to read more of this curious gesturing.

Despite the personality tracking challenge, I think the main reason why I liked Trilby and the Ghost more wasn't the lower character count as such, but that I was granted access into Trilby's head and his motivations. With Crates of Babies, most of the time I'm just an outsider listening to other people chattering. It makes me feel all lonely and dejected.

This is also something that seems to keep me turned off many scifi-ey stories; many of them focus on waving around big banners of technology speculation (possibly combined with politics ripped off from history and/or 1984) and treating even the main characters as mere inconvenient statists in the story. It's the scifi heritage; if you start talking about mushy stuff like minds and feelings, you're either heading straight for the murky depths of scifi-fantasy or wake up tomorrow as Greg Egan. But reading samples of the traditional approach leaves me fumbling for a mind to connect to.

Lastly, I've gotten a distinct impression that ass-kissing does not bring happiness to Yahtzee's life, but I also feel a responsibility to underline what I like so that people don't randomly just stop doing it. For me the highlights for this one were 1) the contrary to popular belief educative tidbit - nice choice for teaser, too, even though it didn't get processed before I saw it in context; 2) moment of dimensional confusion among planet-dwellers (I could also hear them thinking, which made me all warm and snug); and 3) the practical limitations of Hole's gesticulation combined with the "I suddenly have the opportunity to make this situation about a million times worse and by God I'm going to take it" gem.

As for future writing votes, I watched the Youtube video tribute to 'Cadabath' (The Tall Man) linked to back last August and it made me ache for something/anything strange to read revolving around the concept. (In a format gentle to us ignorants, preferrably.) I'm new; I don't know yet if something of the sort's already hidden in the parts of the features collection I haven't read, but I just know I'll be thirsty for more even if the entire Don't Mention Panties Game series is already dedicated to this jolly entity.

--A drive-by critic
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#7 User is offline   DreamerM Icon

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 02:41 PM

QUOTE (Fir @ Mar 29 2008, 09:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the "I suddenly have the opportunity to make this situation about a million times worse and by God I'm going to take it" gem.


Awesome as that line was, I don't think it's set-up really did it justice. Hole didn't actually DO anything to make their situation worse, he just opened their eyes to a new level of how bad the situation already was.
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QUOTE (Game Over @ Jan 17 2009, 11:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#8 User is offline   Ghello Icon

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 07:49 PM

Would you all please make a tl;dr if your post is the length of an essay?

This post has been edited by Ghello: 29 March 2008 - 07:50 PM

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#9 User is offline   Reagle Icon

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 07:42 PM

I just want to say I loved reading it, and I had never played GFW before reading it, but it made me want to enough to actually play through it. Great game, great story. Um, if I had to criticize it in some way, it was really predictable of Yahtzee's writing style, and the ending I kind of saw coming, because it ended really similar to the Trilby Story in which after the "good" ending, the characters end up doing something bad to wrap it up, showing that they aren't your average hero.
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#10 User is offline   Blueskirt Icon

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 08:03 PM

REAGLE!!! Where were you??! We've been worried and missing you for months on the channel, we even named a bot after you! Drop on the channel one of those days!
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#11 User is offline   DreamerM Icon

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 01:31 AM

QUOTE (Reagle @ Mar 30 2008, 07:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
after the "good" ending, the characters end up doing something bad to wrap it up, showing that they aren't your average hero.


I just don't think the ending meshed with everything else. Partly because of the Hydra nature of the Crew in terms of characterization, but also because we weren't given any hints that they might be devious enough to, as one, first conceive of a plan like that and then execute it flawlessly.

Granted, they must have something going for them if they've managed to keep themselves fed as "mercenaries" despite their unprofessionalism and ineptitude.... They might not be your average heroes, but their not your average Professional Warriors-for-Hire either. I can't imagine hiring these guys to fight my gang war for me.
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#12 User is offline   Jeru Icon

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:56 PM

I read the short story, or whatever you would call it, without actually playing the game itself (Which incidentally I have since played and thought was full of amusement and brevity, as well as seeming to be a possibly intentional nod to Star Control II - fifth dimensional hyperbeings et al). I think the strangest thing of all is that upon reading it, I noticed vast similarities with both my own writing style and main theme of a novel I am currently in the process of rewriting. It is also about a human taken onboard a crew of three aliens and generally mulls around being comical space bums, plus the surreal imagery such as 'vomiting a wave of packing peanuts' is generally present in my writing style too. I would suppose that it's not much of a coincidence and that we are both imitating Douglas Adams, but still it was rather odd to read something so similar to that which I have been writing for a long while.

I'm pretty sure I even wrote something similar to "as the crew slipped into the fragile professionalism that usually resulted from mutual peril." strangely.

I don't think there is anything to complain about in the ending, well possibly that it could have been even more hastily and out of the blue in its execution. If you are trying to be a humourist in the way you write things as well as putting in terse situations and actual real social emotion and developments, then you are going to find that each impinge on the other. Which one you tend towards depends greatly on whether you'd overwrite any possible character development or dramatic resolution for the sake of a joke or vice versa.

It was good nonetheless though. I would venture to suggest however that with the particular writing style you have, with its fairly fourth wall breaking narration (there is a bit in the story, but going on the game as well), you should go for the more full out kind of humour which essentially abandons all sense of plot or development in favour of just making sure that the random ambulations of words are as funny as physically possible.
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#13 User is offline   Ipsilon Icon

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 10:53 PM

I thoroughly enjoyed this story. It made me laugh and it inspired me.
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#14 User is offline   Doctor Von Robot Icon

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 03:27 AM

QUOTE (Jeru @ Apr 10 2008, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think there is anything to complain about in the ending, well possibly that it could have been even more hastily and out of the blue in its execution. If you are trying to be a humourist in the way you write things as well as putting in terse situations and actual real social emotion and developments, then you are going to find that each impinge on the other. Which one you tend towards depends greatly on whether you'd overwrite any possible character development or dramatic resolution for the sake of a joke or vice versa.

It was good nonetheless though. I would venture to suggest however that with the particular writing style you have, with its fairly fourth wall breaking narration (there is a bit in the story, but going on the game as well), you should go for the more full out kind of humour which essentially abandons all sense of plot or development in favour of just making sure that the random ambulations of words are as funny as physically possible.


I'm inclined to disagree with you there - I'm no writer myself, but plot, setting and characterisation are only really antithetical to humour if the specific form of humour you're going for is of the "ZOMG!1! SPOON!!!!1!!ONE!" variety, and I think 14 year old girls on MSN everywhere have that covered. tongue.gif


In general, I'd say it was ok.
The Douglas Adams inspired writing style didn't come across as the intended sublimely ridiculous so much as it did a bit pat and snarky, which is a pity, really, because surreal, over the top, descriptive prose is pretty much Yahtzee's calling card these days.
The premise was interesting, but the story itself felt a bit like a series of arbitrary scene stepping stones (particularly the 3D battle/escape scene) finally arriving at an end which felt a hell of a lot like the Trilby story: namely “oh, look, it turns out we're clever bastards!”.

All in all, this was like waiting for a series of jokes which never actually turned up. I'm a bit disappointed, mostly because Fog Juice proves Yahtzee can do a hell of a lot better.
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#15 User is offline   DreamerM Icon

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 03:56 AM

QUOTE (Jeru' date 'Apr 9 2008, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think there is anything to complain about in the ending, well possibly that it could have been even more hastily and out of the blue in its execution....

There are two kinds of twist endings: One's the M. Night Shamelan kind: and not the BAD M. Night Shamelan kind, the good kind, like "The 6th Sense" where the moment of reveal is a WHOA THAT CAME OUTTA NOWHERE, and then you watch the movie over again and realize " wait, no, that actually makes perfect sense...I understand the plot in a whole new way now."

Then there's the BAD M. Night Shamelan ending, where the twist is there just for the sake of a twist: it doesn't seem connected to or even really steam from the story that preceeded it.

In the case of "Crates of Babies" we were never once given ANY kind of indication that this gang of hopeless outlaws were either clever or ruthless enough to devise the plan they did, let alone execute it so convincingly. The crew bumbles around, bumps into things, barely know how to work their own ship, and disagree with each other all the time: and then suddenly they turn out to be EVIL MASTERMINDS and MASTER ACTORS, capable of working in complete unison to set and spring a trap that ruthless?

Does not compute. Sorry. That ending is just a cop-out. I realize that these guys must have stayed employeed somehow (since they're not your average Fighters for Hire) but there should have been some kind of set-up. Foreshadowing. Some kind of indication that they'd be capable of something like that.

QUOTE (Jeru @ Apr 9 2008, 06:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
you should go for the more full out kind of humour which essentially abandons all sense of plot or development in favour of just making sure that the random ambulations of words are as funny as physically possible.


Jeru, if you practice what you preach, I am thankful that I don't have to read any of your work.

Joke to joke to joke is fine in the short run but sooner later I'm going to wonder what the point of it all is. If there isn't a point, if you've just been randomly funny for the sake of it... I'm not gonna be pleased. Maybe this is a personal preference, but I demand my stories at least try to actually contain...you know...a story. I'll give Yahtzee credit for at least trying.

If there is a great weakness in Yahtzee's fiction, it's that: his break-the-forth-wall habit undercuts both the emotional integrity of his characters and our ability as readers to connect with them. I had that issue with "The Search for Something" too: every time I started actually getting caught up in the action I'd get yanked right out of the moment while the narrator waxed smugly metafictional. It made immersion in that world really difficult. It's hard to believe in a fake world and care what happens to fake people when the author keeps reminding you they are fake.


It's not stalking! It's artistic reference!

QUOTE (Game Over @ Jan 17 2009, 11:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You have unlocked a new achivement!

Submachine sandvich: 200 Interwebz pointz!

You are a WINRAR and best pleyur EVAR!


The project that ate my LIFE!
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