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Unique Heroes & Memorable Villains What makes a really great character?

#1 User is offline   DreamerM Icon

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 04:58 PM

What makes a really "good" protagonist/antagonist?

What makes a hero worth rooting for, or a villain worth hating and fearing? What does it take to actually make you care about the fate of fictional people?


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#2 User is offline   Game Over Icon

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 07:10 PM

Looking good, Dressed nicely, being unpredictable, witty, using psychological warfare, being unique in manner and etc. are what makes a good hero or anti-hero, IMO.

There may be tons of more stuff which I can't be bothered to look into the book at the moment.
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Posted 14 March 2008 - 07:12 PM

Bob Page in Deus Ex. He was just so Weird. When he talked he might not stop his sentences There was meant to be a full stop but it wasn't there.
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#4 User is offline   DreamerM Icon

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 07:15 PM

QUOTE (Game Over @ Mar 14 2008, 07:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Looking good, Dressed nicely, being unpredictable, witty, using psychological warfare, being unique in manner and etc. are what makes a good hero or anti-hero, IMO.

There may be tons of more stuff which I can't be bothered to look into the book at the moment.


Is that why female villains are so hard to take seriously? Because they usually have the whole Bondage Queen thing going on that looks completely rediculous?

How important is a character's look?
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Posted 14 March 2008 - 08:11 PM

QUOTE (DreamerM @ Mar 15 2008, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is that why female villains are so hard to take seriously? Because they usually have the whole Bondage Queen thing going on that looks completely rediculous?

How important is a character's look?


Not really.

Clothing is about 60% of someone's personality. Thats a fact.
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#6 User is offline   DreamerM Icon

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 08:37 PM

QUOTE (Game Over @ Mar 14 2008, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not really.

Clothing is about 60% of someone's personality. Thats a fact.


So what is a "well dressed" character then? One who dresses well, or one who dresses in accordance with their personality?
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#7 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 08:37 PM

Make it a fate-ridden character and you've got me on the troupe of cheerleaders. Beat them up, cut them, leave them for dead - and then make the mistake of not seeing things through. Let them rise from the ashes, give them a Rocky-esque training-montage (or RPG-levelling session, for the younger audiences) et voilá - you've got someone who earns his fame by right.

Alternatively, incredibly neutral characters do the trick, the kind that is just too cool to be really bothered by any event that might occur. Give them some strength, don't let them boast but rather just do it (and plenty) and most of all - know when to stop, lest you give birth to yet another Devil may cry Dante lookalike.

Vanity and arrogance usually make for simple villains. The really nice ones usually start off as one of the aforementioned heroes, methinks. The corruptive effects of power and such.

As for looks... I rather liked the character of the distorted imp Tyrion Lannister on his way to fame in "A Song of Ice and Fire". But maybe I'm just really a sucker for natural born underdogs. "Power is but a shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow." was a line that I really liked there.



And yah, I'm still right in the middle of A Clash of Kings, so just bear with me until I get out of that manner of speaking again... dry.gif

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 09:24 PM

I see.

QUOTE (DreamerM @ Mar 15 2008, 01:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So what is a "well dressed" character then? One who dresses well, or one who dresses in accordance with their personality?


I'll choose B for the right answer.

And about the whole "bondage queen" stuff, yes, its getting rather silly.
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#9 User is offline   DreamerM Icon

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 11:32 PM

QUOTE (Gobbler @ Mar 14 2008, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Make it a fate-ridden character and you've got me on the troupe of cheerleaders. Beat them up, cut them, leave them for dead - and then make the mistake of not seeing things through. Let them rise from the ashes, give them a Rocky-esque training-montage (or RPG-levelling session, for the younger audiences) et voilá - you've got someone who earns his fame by right.

Alternatively, incredibly neutral characters do the trick, the kind that is just too cool to be really bothered by any event that might occur. Give them some strength, don't let them boast but rather just do it (and plenty) and most of all - know when to stop, lest you give birth to yet another Devil may cry Dante lookalike.

Vanity and arrogance usually make for simple villains. The really nice ones usually start off as one of the aforementioned heroes, methinks. The corruptive effects of power and such.



Someone once asked Willam Dufoe if he liked preferred playing a hero or a villain, and he said "hero, villain, good, evil, doesn't matter, everyone thinks they're righteous." Which is true not just for characters but for people in general: the things we humans will do to get and keep the moral high ground...

My own personal favorite plot twist comes when the Courageous Hero, the one All the Good Guys are counting on to Save the Day, the Chosen Destined One in a Million...when THAT guy abruptly turns evil. Either willingly or unwillingly. Then not only is there suddenly a powerful new antagonist on the scene, but the narrative focus abruptly shifts to the tertiary characters, who are now saddled both with saving the Hero and the day itself, doing without their rock and needing to do for themselves what they'd been counting on him for.

And when Dante first appeared, he was great because he made being a bad ass look so easy. He genuinely enjoyed his own power, which was a refreshing change from the standard Silent-Tormented action game hero. However, since then, too many heroes have been cast out of Dante's mold and the snappy one-liner is no longer enough to save them. DMC3 worked because it took Dante's familiar traits and added youthful recklessness and possible suicidal impulses to the mix and gave him an actual arc where he got to grow up, but I guess that wouldn't work twice.

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#10 User is offline   Gobbler Icon

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Posted 15 March 2008 - 12:08 AM

QUOTE (DreamerM @ Mar 15 2008, 05:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My own personal favorite plot twist comes when the Courageous Hero, the one All the Good Guys are counting on to Save the Day, the Chosen Destined One in a Million...when THAT guy abruptly turns evil. Either willingly or unwillingly.

Agreed. Though my mind is stuck at this point, trying to remember when some author pulled something like this off and made it actually look good... wacko.gif
Star Wars Episode 1 - 3 is casting a giant shadow of ugliness on that topic there. sick.gif

Also - was Dante really that noteworthy? I've never played the games, only saw the first few episodes of the anime back in the days, and he was a horrible retard with absolutely no character at all there. Fit for doing action, sure, but nothing else beyond that. Duke Nukem or the Postal Guy who were both intentionally superficial seemed to have more depth than that bloke.

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#11 User is offline   DreamerM Icon

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Posted 15 March 2008 - 12:51 AM

QUOTE (Gobbler @ Mar 15 2008, 12:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agreed. Though my mind is stuck at this point, trying to remember when some author pulled something like this off and made it actually look good... wacko.gif
Star Wars Episode 1 - 3 is casting a giant shadow of ugliness on that topic there. sick.gif

Also - was Dante really that noteworthy? I've never played the games, only saw the first few episodes of the anime back in the days, and he was a horrible retard with absolutely no character at all there. Fit for doing action, sure, but nothing else beyond that. Duke Nukem or the Postal Guy who were both intentionally superficial seemed to have more depth than that bloke.


Oh Dante didn't have much depth, but he had angst and he had fabulous hair, which was all my fifteen-year-old self needed in an action hero. Plus he had attitude, and his personality had a very real presence in the game as opposed to being just tacked on. He seemed built for ass-kicking from the ground up. Yeah the years haven't been kind to him, but I loved DMC1 and DMC3 anyway. I haven't seen the anime nor do I particularly want to.

Here's the thing, I don't think anyone really HAS...not to the extent that it could be. There's too much of a desire to make heroes "likable" like likable people can't do bad things...

There was a part in Temple of Doom where Indiana Jones gets all brainwashed and evil for a time, and it's up to the Useless Blonde and the Kid (mostly the kid) to save the day, and THAT was good while it lasted...didn't last long, but it worked while it did. No one besides Indy ever did crap in those movies except by accident.

Another twist I like is the mystery fake-out: when the mystery's been solved and everything seems to be back to normal...but you've still got a few chapters left. And you just have to think, something's not right. What have I missed? What's still coming?


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#12 User is offline   Ghello Icon

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Posted 15 March 2008 - 01:32 AM

QUOTE (DreamerM @ Mar 14 2008, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Someone once asked Willam Dufoe if he liked preferred playing a hero or a villain, and he said "hero, villain, good, evil, doesn't matter, everyone thinks they're righteous." Which is true not just for characters but for people in general: the things we humans will do to get and keep the moral high ground...

My own personal favorite plot twist comes when the Courageous Hero, the one All the Good Guys are counting on to Save the Day, the Chosen Destined One in a Million...when THAT guy abruptly turns evil. Either willingly or unwillingly. Then not only is there suddenly a powerful new antagonist on the scene, but the narrative focus abruptly shifts to the tertiary characters, who are now saddled both with saving the Hero and the day itself, doing without their rock and needing to do for themselves what they'd been counting on him for.

And when Dante first appeared, he was great because he made being a bad ass look so easy. He genuinely enjoyed his own power, which was a refreshing change from the standard Silent-Tormented action game hero. However, since then, too many heroes have been cast out of Dante's mold and the snappy one-liner is no longer enough to save them. DMC3 worked because it took Dante's familiar traits and added youthful recklessness and possible suicidal impulses to the mix and gave him an actual arc where he got to grow up, but I guess that wouldn't work twice.


What you said, like when that good character is so likeable and is one of your favorite characters throughout the whole series, and then he turns or is forced to be evil and it just shocks you, perfect example is the Berserk anime series, the ending alone in makes that just one incredible anime, yeah, everyone hates anime, but when I find an anime without giant robots or magic, it's usually good.
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#13 User is offline   DreamerM Icon

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Posted 15 March 2008 - 04:38 AM

QUOTE (Ghello @ Mar 15 2008, 01:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What you said, like when that good character is so likeable and is one of your favorite characters throughout the whole series, and then he turns or is forced to be evil and it just shocks you, perfect example is the Berserk anime series, the ending alone in makes that just one incredible anime, yeah, everyone hates anime, but when I find an anime without giant robots or magic, it's usually good.


oh man, bringing up anime. That's a dangerous game dude.

I was never able to get into Berzerk. Mostly because I didn't like any of the characters. I appreciate that they were "good" characters in that they all had strengths and weaknesses and rounded personalities, but I just didn't like any of them. None of them seemed relatable or have any real appealing qualities. I never got into Death Note for exactly the same reason: lots of atmosphere, twisty deathly mind-bendy drama, but I didn't care who won, so none of it mattered to me.

I will say this though: the Berzerk intro sequence ROCKED. And the violence was gratuitous and satisfying.

As far as anime storytelling goes, the coolest thing about anime is that it tells all different types of stories: I hold up two of them, Cowboy Bebop and Fullmetal Alchemist, as being trademark examples of how horror, comedy, and drama can be mixed and enrich each other and blend together into a mightily powerful narrative that grabs on and just doesn't let go. Alright, the formats differed: Cowboy Bebop is more a collection of short-stories, and FMA more of an overarching narrative, but Bebop's stories ranged, literally, from Stoner Comedy to Hard Boiled Crime Drama and looked damn good doing it. I think both of those shows are responsible for me deciding I had to study animation. Not for the motion but for the ability to put anything I could think up up there on the screen, be it funny or scary or dramatic or sad or exciting...

I still hold both of them up as two of the best not just anime but TV shows I have ever seen.
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#14 User is offline   FFreak3 Icon

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Posted 15 March 2008 - 06:12 AM

For me, you got a hero?
Make him react to the circumstances. Or not.
Black or white, not gray.

If he's being tortured, make him do one of the following: (emotionally speaking)
A)Beg for mercy/repentance, etc.
B)Not react
C)Go psycho/beg(taunt) for more
D)Stockholm syndrome
E)Go completely weak and be unable to express emotion. Picture ribs falling off through his inverted hollow belly here, people

Anything else has to be done to such an extreme that it's believable.

Then, find a way to get him out of the situation that makes sense.
If he goes psycho, he's not going to think logically enough to use quantum physics to teleport himself. If he goes psycho, he'll have to do something like break out of a prison made of 18 mile thick steel walls. Or, perhaps, impale himself on a brick wall, (psychos find ways to do that), and get revived by a fairy.

Get my point? And if he stays cool and calm, breaking out of is chains or picklocking or stealing keys or something . . . all pretty cliched, huh? "I'm so skilled i can get out of any situation" boring! I'd like to see a cool, calm hero just sit there and die/nearly die for once in these situations. Last minute stands, dumb luck, or bad guys failing to plan shit (or good guys succeeding at planning shit(unless you know of it beforehand, and your character planned for this going in)), is cliched, and cliched = boring, unless you can do a REALLY good job of it.


For a villain . . . try depth. Too many ignore the villain except in a few cutscenes or scaths, and you really don't feel the need to fight him except that he's fighting you. If you have a main villain, give him a backstory that's integral to the plot, and develops him.

By the end of the game, I should feel a duty, a hatred, a need, SOMETHING to kill/defeat/convert/etc. the evil guy.

And happy-go-lucky everything-is-alright-again endings just ruin how i look back at the game afterwards. Same for games which end with the character saying he'll never be who he was again. Homer did that, what? More than 2000 years ago? Time to think up something new, you jerks. This is the one time you can take the hero/villain/etc. completely out of character and you waste this opportunity on a implied sex scene between the hero and the romantic interest? sheesh.
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#15 User is offline   Ghello Icon

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 01:24 AM

QUOTE (DreamerM @ Mar 15 2008, 04:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
oh man, bringing up anime. That's a dangerous game dude.

I was never able to get into Berzerk. Mostly because I didn't like any of the characters. I appreciate that they were "good" characters in that they all had strengths and weaknesses and rounded personalities, but I just didn't like any of them. None of them seemed relatable or have any real appealing qualities. I never got into Death Note for exactly the same reason: lots of atmosphere, twisty deathly mind-bendy drama, but I didn't care who won, so none of it mattered to me.

I will say this though: the Berzerk intro sequence ROCKED. And the violence was gratuitous and satisfying.

As far as anime storytelling goes, the coolest thing about anime is that it tells all different types of stories: I hold up two of them, Cowboy Bebop and Fullmetal Alchemist, as being trademark examples of how horror, comedy, and drama can be mixed and enrich each other and blend together into a mightily powerful narrative that grabs on and just doesn't let go. Alright, the formats differed: Cowboy Bebop is more a collection of short-stories, and FMA more of an overarching narrative, but Bebop's stories ranged, literally, from Stoner Comedy to Hard Boiled Crime Drama and looked damn good doing it. I think both of those shows are responsible for me deciding I had to study animation. Not for the motion but for the ability to put anything I could think up up there on the screen, be it funny or scary or dramatic or sad or exciting...

I still hold both of them up as two of the best not just anime but TV shows I have ever seen.


I enjoyed Cowboy Bebop, and FMA is good, but the whole alchemy is basically magic , and the villans were just so stupid, I hated them all, and not in a good way. Ed was whiny, but not as bad as the likes of the kid from Neon or characters from Naruto or Bleach, but those don't really matter because they are complete shit (The last two that is).

I liked Berserk for one because the only advantage Guts had over everyone is he had no destiny, he had no magic powers or super weapon he always relied on like Bankai in Bleach or some super secret technique, he was just a guy with a huge sword. I read some of the manga for Berserk which is alot better then the anime for starts, but it helped me to get to know Guts more. I thought Griffith was a funny character and he was one of my favorite characters, I thought he was the most likeable in the series, that's probably the reason they did what they did with him at the end.

The end alone in Berserk is reason enough to watch the series, it's just a total mind fuck and one of the most disturbing pieces in any anime ever.

I also agree with you on Death Note, I hate Light and the Misa chick, the only person who brings life to the series is L, and he's an aquired taste I suppose.

This post has been edited by Ghello: 16 March 2008 - 01:26 AM

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