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What could be better than a kangaroo court? A kangaroo court sentencing people to die.

#1 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 11:31 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23132293/

Bush and his people want to kill some of the people they've kidnapped, tortured and unlawfully imprisoned for six or seven years. And get this, they know the world will be pissed at us, but they just dont care. They want to compare this to the Nuremberg trials in which 12 people were sentenced to hang for the deaths of millions and the most costly war humanity has ever seen. It's a clear correlation since once again the purpetrators are, as Bush says, "fascists".

The rest of this post was .. slightly radical, and probably illegal, but the language would have evoked entirely too much debate that would keep people from contemplating the horror that I am trying to convey. I'm going to save what would have been the rest of this post for an article to be sent to the Party's magazine sometime.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 12 February 2008 - 11:54 PM

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#2 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 06:25 AM

Sorry, Bush, but those people you're torturing and denying all legal channels aren't war criminals, they're "detainees" and "enemy combatants" so even if they are actually the guys who plotted the attacks (which I doubt, given the sheer ineptitude of the administration to to a single thing right), it's even less appropriate than you think to try to compare these to people who were proven to have orchestrated mass genocide. Stupid tyrant.
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#3 User is offline   Casual Icon

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 06:53 AM

Also if this is a "war on terror" wouldn’t that make these guys POW's? Don’t POW's have rights? I hate the fact that whenever he does something highly illegal he try's in vain to justify it by comparing it to some legitimate (and completely different) example in history. I hope history condemns him and one day he ends his days in a cell his administration built.
QUOTE (arien @ Jun 29 2008, 03:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So this baby, while still inside its mother, murdered his twin brother and STOLE HIS PENIS.

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#4 User is offline   Simperin' Fool Icon

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 07:57 AM

So, wait, who are we fighting, anyway? Terrorists or fascists? It seems that the meanings of those words have become very broad.
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#5 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 01:33 PM

Snake would know. I'm sure this is part of why Bush chose to call terrorists fascists in the first place, but he forgot that: The fascists definately comitted crimes and none of them were tortured into confessing, and also that their trials were by the international community. No one needed to send out a diplomatic cable asking for their embassies to prepare for a blow back when they hung a few nazis.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#6 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 02:02 PM

I'm in favor of the action. Why? because I'm no troll but I still like to see people get worked up over something they cannot change.

Awwww, it's too bad that they don't have the same rights that I have. Boo hoo. I'm sure Bush will eventually do one thing right, in a row; and then all of the Bush haters can claim victory and Shut the Fork up already.
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Posted 13 February 2008 - 02:35 PM

You'd care if it were your family being locked away, tortured into confession, and then executed on the grounds of that confession by a private military tribunal. Well, I hope you would, at least...
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#8 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 03:50 PM

Well, yeah. And I'd pray for them. And be grateful that they were allowed to follow their custom and pray as well. But wait; in a perfect world, suppression of religion is to be extolled, right?

Giving them a free trip to a media circus where they will be the sympathetic stars isn't in our country's interest. Quietly restraining terrorism however, is.
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#9 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 04:02 PM

How do you know that they are restraining terrorism? How can you trust information that you tortured someone to obtain, when it can't be proven after the confession?

For instance: You've been accused of planning to bomb the White House (easy enough hypothetical, aye?). However, you had no such plans and there is no hard evidence that anyone was, just a suggestion here and a rumour there. But they take you and torture you with all sorts of methods, they threaten your family, etc. Maybe you're strong enough to take it till they get bored and die, proudly proclaiming your innocence the entire time - but some people aren't that strong. Some people finally break and they will say whatever their torturers want to hear, in order to keep from being hurt more, or in order to keep their family from being killed or tortured. Even if it's not true. I know I for one would rather confess to a crime I didn't commit than proclaim my innocence if my brother's life/health were at stake.

And there is no evidence to suggest that the people being tortured committed the crimes until after they confess, and there of course is no confession until there is lots of torture. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? This is guilty until he finally gives up and admits guilt whether he is truly guilty or not. What if some of these people truly are innocent? They're getting tortured anyway.

Now I can't pretend to know all the details of every torture case, but I do know that it's unethical and a horrible way of gaining information. And I just don't understand how some people can just sit by and applaud the people who do it in the name of our country.
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Posted 13 February 2008 - 05:35 PM

I'm not applauding, and I do know that they can come after me. Fearing the new Clinton regime, that's why I removed my recent avatar...

Given the name of this thread, I can see profound bias for dumping on dubya. By some folks who have some far out tendencies.
Pardon me for attempting to be far out myself. It's not like I expect anyone to take me seriously, right?
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#11 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 12:35 AM

QUOTE
But wait; in a perfect world, suppression of religion is to be extolled, right?


Maybe I'm alone here, but between being told I couldnt pray and being tortured relentlessly for six years and then murdered, I think I'd take the former. Feel free to tell me what relation religious suppression has to this topic if you like.

QUOTE
Giving them a free trip to a media circus where they will be the sympathetic stars isn't in our country's interest.


Oh yes. Its much better to keep everything hidden. That way the rest of the world will think we have something to hide like, I dunno, using evidence obtained by torture, keeping detainees from basic rights of habeaus corpus necessary to their defense, preventing them from speaking in their defense and trying them before horrificly biased panels? (our own supreme court justice Scumbag Scalia was in London today jabbering about how it was ok to stick things under other peoples finger nails to make them talk. And if he's that bad I dont know what the military judges appointed by these ass clowns will be like)

QUOTE
Quietly restraining terrorism however, is.


Making people scream in agony does not fit my definition of quiet. Ah, but you meant more on a political scale than in a literal way. Let me tell you something about your "quiet restraint". I'm guessing that Bush believes that once again showing his willingness to do murder will frighten his enemies. As one of Bush's enemies I can tell you that it hardens my resolve. The threat of death and burial in some unmarked grave is no deterrent to those who love freedom. Indeed it holds a certain promise. Many of the best leaders of the twentieth century were laid in unarked graves by the US government, and my only fear is that I would not be worthy of their company.

QUOTE
Given the name of this thread, I can see profound bias for dumping on dubya


As soon as another American president tortures and kills people let me know and democrat or republican I'll be all over their ass. But wait, you can't find one. Because no one has ordered tortured before Dubya. Not against Nazi war criminals. Not against anarchist "terrorists", not against evil slave drivers, and not even when the British invaded the US and burned the white house to the ground.

Think about that. The white house was burning behind him while Madison fled with his family and what belongings could be saved, not far ahead of the British persuit, and someone asked him what was to be done with prisoners from the same army who burned down his home and were on the verge of reoccupying his nation. And even then he didnt do what Bush does now.

Could that have been prevented if we'd waterboarded a few captive British soldiers or drove nails under their fingertips to find out about their plans? It was, after all, actionable intelligence about an imminent threat to our nation. But you know, I'm happier living in a nation whose capital got burned once than I would be living in a nation with a record of torture and brutality. Or at least I was happier while I could still put the US in the former category.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 14 February 2008 - 12:46 AM

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#12 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 12:53 AM

And one more thing. I think I already mentioned this but these tribunals and the law which enacts them, make it clear that evidence obtained by torture is admissable if the judge believes it "serves the purposes of justice" and that evidence obtained by cruel or degrading treatment (torture) is freely admissible.

Yes, these cases are for terrorists, but when evidence obtained by torture is the basis for your case anyone can quickly become a terrorist. The fact that this is being allowed is shameful in itself. Bush is making this evil attrocity over the top by choosing to kill those he has already victimised.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#13 User is offline   Snake Logan Icon

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 04:54 AM

QUOTE (Casual @ Feb 13 2008, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also if this is a "war on terror" wouldn’t that make these guys POW's? Don’t POW's have rights? I hate the fact that whenever he does something highly illegal he try's in vain to justify it by comparing it to some legitimate (and completely different) example in history. I hope history condemns him and one day he ends his days in a cell his administration built.


Technically, they are only given the rights as a POW if they are apart of a local army and did not come from another country. So, only those born in Afghanistan are to be treated as POW’s in theory. In practise any non-American is untermensch and unworthy of human rights.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Feb 14 2008, 05:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Snake would know. I'm sure this is part of why Bush chose to call terrorists fascists in the first place, but he forgot that: The fascists definately comitted crimes and none of them were tortured into confessing, and also that their trials were by the international community. No one needed to send out a diplomatic cable asking for their embassies to prepare for a blow back when they hung a few nazis.


This isn’t Nuremberg, Puto. If any people are the new Nazis then its you and your countrymen. You’ve invaded 4 countries since 1990. You have bases in more then half the countries in the world. You’re putrid capitalist culture is polluting every country which has a trade route with you. You make me sick.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Feb 14 2008, 04:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Because no one has ordered tortured before Dubya.


Forgotten your history already?

This post has been edited by Snake Logan: 14 February 2008 - 05:01 AM

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QUOTE (Game Over @ Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee, you are the Oscar Wilde of the 21st century.

QUOTE (Patch @ Feb 14 2008, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee is gay?!
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#14 User is offline   Simperin' Fool Icon

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 08:06 AM

QUOTE
You’re putrid capitalist culture is polluting every country which has a trade route with you.


It's more mercantilist, actually. Monopolistic, domineering, utterly ruthless: the exact opposite of the capitalistic philisophical ideal, which is essentially economic anarchism.

This post has been edited by Simperin' Fool: 14 February 2008 - 08:06 AM

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#15 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 09:33 AM

You're one to talk, Snake, living in Australia. I'm sure it's a bastion of functioning democratic socialism, right? And concerning your Wikipedia entry, JM was saying no president has openly endorsed torture before. Not that the US hasn't committed it. And before you even start, no, I highly doubt that the president is privy to everything going on in the CIA. Of course, if a president knew about torture abroad by government agencies in the past and didn't put an immediate stop to it, complete shame on him.
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