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9/11 Denial

#76 User is offline   Snake Logan Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 04:29 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Feb 11 2008, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, no there are not. You could get the taliban for trying to destroy a peoples culture, but there arent any budhists living in Afghanistan so it wasnt really an assault on a people or a peoples culture (as there were no indiginous people present to claim the cultural items.) Am I saying it was ok? No. Am I saying the Taliban were ok? No. But I'm saying they were not fascists, and theres no comparison between what they did adn the holocaust.


Fine. Lets pretend they committed no crimes against humanity, they are still Clerical Fascists.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Feb 11 2008, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You claimed that the Japanese army couldnt spare troops to attack pearl harbor. This was false as the army wasnt involved in the attack.


No… just with the invasion of Hong Kong, the Philippines, Guam, Singapore and Indonesia.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Feb 11 2008, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They had been contingency planning for a war with the US for at least ten or twenty years according to that article. I imagine those plans would have had to involve attacks on the Aleutians and on the US's main naval base that was within range of Japan, namely Pearl Harbor.


Alright, we have established that they had a plan, why did they carry it out when America put a trade embargo on Japan?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Feb 11 2008, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The US and Japan also had a non agression pact. So did Germany and the USSR. If Japan hadnt attacked the US it would have gone after the USSR, you yourself stated they were more interested in Russia than the US. And Russia did indeed have a lot of troops, but they were inexperienced, poorly led, poorly supplied, etc. Hence Germany's swift advances. And an attack by Japan would have been catastrophic for Russian morale even if it wasnt a problem on a strategic basis which it almost certainly would have been.

No they didnt. Also the date was 1904. And about 20000 Japanese deaths were due to disease, so the Russians lost more troops due to combat related reasons. It was regardless a sweeping Japanese victory and, get this, is cited as one of the reasons the Czars government fell. So if a few enemy victories far from St Petersburg helped topple the Czar (and drop Russia out of world war 1) what might a series of enemy victories, the surrounding of St. Petersburg (or Leningrad) and an invasion in the East do?


Lets see now… the Nazis went as far as Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad… did the Soviet leadership surrender? No, because it couldn’t. Because surrendering meant extinction. By the time the Axis reached Stalingrad, morale was very high all over the USSR.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Feb 11 2008, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ah dictation on strategy from the man who suggests secretly moving an army over the pacific ocean and then north from australia. Strategy is about more than numbers, regretably.


From the Panama Canal to Christmas Island to Tasmania to Australia. The very idea that the Japanese navy had submarines that far out even though they were preparing to help out the army in its conquest of the Philippines is ludicrous!

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Feb 11 2008, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You said it was a mistake to "force" Japan to enter the war with the embargo.

But you also say it would not have been better to wait .

So are you now saying that Roosevelt didnt make a mistake there?


Perhaps it was a better idea for Roosevelt not to sell oil to Japan in the first place. Then take it away thus radicalizing a desperate leadership. The Japanese war effort depended on American oil so why sell them oil in the first place? And what is so special about 1941? Why not in 1937 when Japan slaughtered the citizens of Nanking?
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QUOTE (Game Over @ Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee, you are the Oscar Wilde of the 21st century.

QUOTE (Patch @ Feb 14 2008, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee is gay?!
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#77 User is offline   Snake Logan Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 04:44 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Feb 11 2008, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Silly me, and all the time I thought this was the definition of fascism.

Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers the individual subordinate to the interests of the state, party or society as a whole. Fascists seek to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, racial, religious attributes. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, autocracy and opposition to political and economic liberalism.


Fine. Lets play by your rules for a second.

(based on Afghanistan before 2001)

Are the Taliban forcing the people to be subordinate to a religion? Yes. Do they wage a united front based on religion? When there is a foreign force about, yes. Now, they are not nationalists or corporatists but they are certainly statists, militarists, anti-communists, collectivists and autocrats. As for totalitarianism, populism and opposition to liberal economics, that can be debatable.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Feb 11 2008, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Strategicly that would make no sense. But it was dishonorable and not "declaring war" in its proper form. Thus I pointed that out. I didnt imply that Japan would have benefited strategicly if they'd played by the rules, though PH had little strategic impactm, though a large impact on American morale which is why it came up in a debate about 9/11


War… can be dishonourable? No way! And Japan did technically play by the rules, it sent out the ultimatum before the attack but it reached the American leadership after the attack.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Feb 11 2008, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think if the Japanese had noticed a military buildup or, I dunno, heard about a MASSIVE FUCK INVASION FLEET, they might have patrolled more heavily. Your strategy relies too much on your enemies being wholly incompetent.


Lets pretend that America did do a military build up. What could Japan do if they somehow find out? Attack America when they depend on American oil?
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QUOTE (Game Over @ Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee, you are the Oscar Wilde of the 21st century.

QUOTE (Patch @ Feb 14 2008, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee is gay?!
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#78 User is offline   Simperin' Fool Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 08:13 AM

QUOTE
Where you get your non-biased political views.


There's no such thing as a non-biased political opinion.

I'm biased. You're biased. The birds and the bees are biased.
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#79 User is offline   Simperin' Fool Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 08:48 AM

QUOTE
And Japan did technically play by the rules, it sent out the ultimatum before the attack but it reached the American leadership after the attack.


I'm going to write a letter declaring war on your country, send it through 18th-class mail so it reaches you next week, and attack you right now before you get a chance to read the letter and prepare. It's not my fault the mail is so slow to get to you from the other side of the world.

Generally, when you give someone a warning, you're supposed to make sure it reaches them before whatever you're warning against happens. If not, you might as well not even bother.

QUOTE
Attack America when they depend on American oil?


Well, yeah, that's what they did. They obviously attacked us. The Japanese probably would have assumed they were about to be cut off, which they no doubt would have been, which would have put them in a similar desperate situation made even more desperate because they would fear open retaliation from us.

QUOTE
Alright, we have established that they had a plan, why did they carry it out when America put a trade embargo on Japan?


You explained that earlier, dude. They needed the supplies desperately.

QUOTE
Lets see now… the Nazis went as far as Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad… did the Soviet leadership surrender? No, because it couldn’t. Because surrendering meant extinction. By the time the Axis reached Stalingrad, morale was very high all over the USSR.


... What? They were hanging on by the skin of their teeth, and the only reason they didn't cave under the pressure is because they had so many freaking troops to throw at the Germans. Also, their T34s were awesome. But still, when half of your squad is charging into battle without proper weapons or gear, and you have a commisar behind you threatening to kill you if you don't go running headlong to your own death, morale is not going to be very high. True, surrender meant extinction, so they had no choice, but saying that means that morale was high is absurd.

QUOTE
Perhaps it was a better idea for Roosevelt not to sell oil to Japan in the first place.


That's right. We should have known they would eventually betray us.

This post has been edited by Simperin' Fool: 11 February 2008 - 08:51 AM

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#80 User is offline   Spoon Poetic Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 12:29 PM

Japan had only recently opened up their doors for trade at all, period. And we wanted that. Of course we didn't know at the time Japan was going to use the oil we supplied them for things we mega didn't agree with.

This stuff is basic history, dude. I don't know why or how, Snake; but your "knowledge" of what went down during this time period is quite warped. Opinion is one thing but you're getting your facts wrong. My source: History. Look it up in a book or something. Hell, even Wikipedia has this shit right.
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#81 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 02:07 PM

QUOTE
Fine. Lets pretend they committed no crimes against humanity, they are still Clerical Fascists.


Why? Because Cobnat said so?

QUOTE
You claimed that the Japanese army couldnt spare troops to attack pearl harbor. This was false as the army wasnt involved in the attack.

No… just with the invasion of Hong Kong, the Philippines, Guam, Singapore and Indonesia.


Good job listing several countries that had nothing to do with pearl harbor there, Snake. Anyhow your contention that the army was stretched too thin to attack pearl harbor has now been proven false as I made clear it was the navy that performed the attack, so we can let this one rest.

QUOTE
Alright, we have established that they had a plan, why did they carry it out when America put a trade embargo on Japan?


You claimed Japan had no plans to create a sphere of influence in the Pacific or attack the US. I've shattered both of these contentions. Japan declared war because they were an expansionist nation and they thought it would serve their cause of empire building. Regardless of what the US did they were eventually going to declare war, or Germany would have which would have brought Japan in against us anyhow. Youre not going to blame the Americans for bringing Japan into WW2 so I suggest you just give up on this.

QUOTE
By the time the Axis reached Stalingrad, morale was very high all over the USSR.


How to speak Snake Logan: [Snake sitting in a yard chair drinking beer] History class. [Icey cold can of Foster's] Beer. Foster's: Snake Logan for beer.

I could make jokes about some "all our major cities are under siege" parties or something, but I wont. I will however ask whether the parts of Russia where morale was high would happen to include the parts the nazis were occupying?

QUOTE
From the Panama Canal to Christmas Island to Tasmania to Australia. The very idea that the Japanese navy had submarines that far out even though they were preparing to help out the army in its conquest of the Philippines is ludicrous!


Why would submarines be needed to aid in a land invasion? Also, the Japanese used subs shortly after pearl harbor to shell American territory in Oregon and California. But I guess those subs were just lost while all the other subs were off storming hills on the philippines with the land sharks.

QUOTE
Perhaps it was a better idea for Roosevelt not to sell oil to Japan in the first place.


So what you called Roosevelt's stupid mistake is actually just his failure to be a prophet? I can accept that. On behalf of my nation's former leader I apologize for our lack of ability to see the future.

QUOTE
Then take it away thus radicalizing a desperate leadership.


They were imperialist fascists. I think they were pretty radicalized already. That's like saying that Britain and France declaring war on Germany radicalized Hitler.

QUOTE
The Japanese war effort depended on American oil so why sell them oil in the first place?


... Because the Japanese were buying it I should think.


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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#82 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 02:08 PM

QUOTE
And what is so special about 1941? Why not in 1937 when Japan slaughtered the citizens of Nanking?


Why dont we put an embargo on Russia for its crimes in Chechnya? Why not embargo China for its occupation of Tibet?

Because first of all it would hurt our economy too while doing little good for the world and second of all they havent been making an insane drive of invasion. Japan invaded China and Korea and we figured they'd chill out. Then they allied with the nazis so we put some restrictions on trade with them. Then they invaded French indochina and we finally blocked oil shipments. I think we gave them a good chance to behave.

QUOTE
Are the Taliban forcing the people to be subordinate to a religion? Yes. Do they wage a united front based on religion? When there is a foreign force about, yes. Now, they are not nationalists or corporatists but they are certainly statists, militarists, anti-communists, collectivists and autocrats. As for totalitarianism, populism and opposition to liberal economics, that can be debatable.


I think the Muslims in Afghanistan were already subordinate to their religion. And no, they dont wage a united front. The taliban was made up of numerous warlords, and there were other warlords in Afghanistan either not with them at all or just paying htem lip service. It wasnt a top down group. Statists? Just because they have a state does not mean they're statists. And they didnt undertake any great drive towards militarization or collectivization. And they shure as hell werent populist nor did they practice liberal economics. They effected no controls on the economy at all that I know of.

They fit maybe half of the criteria, and I dont think that makes them fascist.

QUOTE
War… can be dishonourable? No way! And Japan did technically play by the rules, it sent out the ultimatum before the attack but it reached the American leadership after the attack.


Your statement amounts to this:

Roosevelt shouldnt have been mean and forced Japan to enter the war, but when they did they did the honorable thing and sent a formal declaration of war.

I'm not going to tell you why this is wrong. I imagine you know very well. I am, however, going to say once against that you're a [censored].

QUOTE
Lets pretend that America did do a military build up. What could Japan do if they somehow find out? Attack America when they depend on American oil?


They obviously didnt depend on it that much if they managed to fight for four or five years without it. And yes, if they saw your "sneak" invasion fleet floating over the pacific I think they would have torpedoed the shit out of it and then worried about how to get oil. But what do I know? Maybe oil supplies are more important than, ya know, NOT BEING INVADED.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#83 User is offline   ?!! Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 05:43 PM

Oh, hey, does anyone know what we were actually talking about? It's interesting that every discussion he takes part in ends up with all of us talking about something totally unrelated. Quick! Say something inarguable before he adds more links!
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#84 User is offline   Simperin' Fool Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 07:27 PM

QUOTE
Oh, hey, does anyone know what we were actually talking about?


Rudy Guliani accused Ron Paul of being unpatriotic because he tried to explain why 9/11 happened. Or something.

QUOTE
Quick! Say something inarguable before he adds more links!


Uh, AIDS sucks?

This post has been edited by Simperin' Fool: 11 February 2008 - 07:28 PM

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#85 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 09:13 PM

Yeah. Giuliani said Ron Paul was unpatriotic because he admitted that the US had a role in causing the turmoil which led to the terrorist attacks. Petty fearmongering, and very pathetic bandwagoning at the wrong time, but very practiced in mimicking the present presidential administration.

And I'd ask Snake to stop with the nonsense, and JM to do the same, but all of the non sequiturs are entertaining, and we don't often get a lot of activity in the Debate Club.
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#86 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 09:37 PM

I think the nonsense has already gained too much momentum to stop. But I can poke at it a bit:

QUOTE
Your mind is really falling apart. Smoke less shrooms.


I think I already stated that smoking shrooms doesnt do it for me anymore. Banana peels up the ass is the new way to get high.

Also, I have a very special message from the director of fascist studies at the university of Gilder, Dr. I. Montoya:

"You keepa using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Thank you, Dr. Montoya.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#87 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:29 AM

9/11 was suggested in two Simpsons episodes. "Homer vs the City of New York" and "New Kids on the Blechhh".
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#88 User is offline   Snake Logan Icon

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 03:21 AM

QUOTE (Slade @ Feb 12 2008, 01:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And I'd ask Snake to stop with the nonsense,


I’ve said what I wanted to say so I am going to take a break.
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QUOTE (Game Over @ Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee, you are the Oscar Wilde of the 21st century.

QUOTE (Patch @ Feb 14 2008, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee is gay?!
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#89 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 04:57 AM

Hope you enjoyed your vacation. I know it was good to have one from this fascist stuff. But I feel like coming back to it now, so let me point something out.

You're trying to excuse Japan's suprise attack on pearl harbor. You seem to be implyign that declarations of war are sort of an archaic and even silly thing.

Let me just point out that an international conflict is a bit different than just challenging someone to a duel. Two people can meet up and fight on pretty short notice and as long as they both have comparable armaments its considered a fair fight.

However when two countries are at war they need to know about it so tehy can prepare and evacuate civilians. So if you have any decency you let people know that you intend to go to war with them before you attack. That way they can organize shelters and fire brigades, evacuate people and make sure the people who stay behind have adequate supplies.

It is not an archaic practice. It ensures that civilian casualties (ideally) wont be too great a factor on strategy and allows both sides more focus on the battles.

As I'm required to cite sources,

Slade's Mom (oligarchy) 2007

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#90 User is offline   z e w b Icon

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:19 AM

We all know 9/11 happened because America stuck its nose where it didn't belong; right into the middle of a religious war. The real question here is why would our government piss off a bunch of fanatical Muslims and put its own citizens in danger to help Israel? I think there is something funny going on here. Are the Jews manipulating the US Government to help them defend their land from being taken back by the Muslims?
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