[Slade]

JM: No, Snake's point was that blowing up lots of innocent people would be a good way to show those people the error of their ways. My proposition was that it doesn't work like that, and it just enrages populations, citing a longstanding real world example.

For your last bit, were you possessed by TruJade but resisting? And if I recall, Japan was hoping to knock out the US's navy with one heavy blow to ensure they stayed out of the war in the Pacific.

In general, we've been throwing around lots of terms, some of them being used improperly. At its simplest, Fascism is a devotion to the state to the point of willing subjugation of the individual in favor of said state. It may appeal to anything populist, authoritarian, religious, etc. to further its goals, is authoritarian, appeals to tradition and power, etc. but I don't think you can just replace the word "state" in my definition with x and then say that it's "x fascism." That is something else that's similar and still pretty terrible.

[Simperin' Fool]

Yes. The Japanese NAVY was very hard pressed to conquier INLAND FUGGING CHINA. They clearly had their hands full and had no ships or planes to spare for anything considering all the naval operations that must have been going on against the Chinese communist and nationalist fighters in INLAND FUGGING CHINA.

"Admiral, the enemy forces have submerged, and we're all out of depth charges!"

"Release the landsharks!"

This post has been edited by Simperin' Fool: 08 February 2008 - 07:59 AM

[J m HofMarN]

Slade- In that sentence the word not shouldnt have popped up. I was half way between making a statement that you were well on your way to proving that mass civilian casualties were not a good teacher, and pointing out the obsurdity of him saying they were, so I imagine the not popped in thanks to that.

No posession, just under the influence of some really great mushrooms I've been smoking.

"state" in my definition with x and then say that it's "x fascism."

Hamsteric Fascism! Blake had a bunch of them once and this really big one kept trying to control all the food and oppress the other hamsters and stuff. Clearly an instance of the well documented Hamsteric Fascism.

[Snake Logan]

Yes you're right by that logic. However I'm also right to call them Islamic Viet Cong. And since the CSA used guerilla tactics in the civil war, I'm right to call them Islamic Confederat Cavalry. And since the Christians did mean things to Jews when they got desperate in teh crucades I'm right to call them Islamic Christians. When one assumes your logic to be right your conclusion is right. Problem is your logic is faulty.

No. It would be Vietcong Fascists. CSA Fascists. Catholic/Clerical Fascists. I don’t know why you think Islam has anything to do with those groups.

Jefferson Davis, Le Duan and King Richard all used desperate tactics, and appealed to nationalism, pride and religion. Therefore they must all be fascists as well.

Considering the slavery of the CSA. Considering the concentration camps of North Vietnam. Considering the appalling things the Crusaders did to all non-Catholics. I would have to say yes, they were all Fascists.

You and people like you started out by calling these people Islamic Radicals, Islamic Terrorists or Wahhabists or whatever.

And people like you try and make Islamic Fascists into freedom fighters and divert attention away from what they really are, wife beating, child killing Fascists. I don’t hate Islam, I see it as another mainstream religion that needs serious reform. I have been very specific in what breed I am against, Islamic Fascists. I don’t call them Muslims. You have no right to accuse me of anything or being apart of any group.

Then you realized that made it look like you hated Islam. So your lot moved on to this fascist utter bollocks. And look what a great thing this is now. See, when it was just "terrorists" we could only attack people who bombed places. But now that we're at war with Islamic Fascists we can include governments in their ranks too. Governments like, oh, say... fucking Iraq? Iran maybe? Gaza? It's super because this way we link those governments with Qaeda, and as a bonus link them to the Nazis all in the same breath. Double Plus Good Think, I say!

Al Qaeda is a terrorist group and I doubt it has anything to do with any of the Islamic Fascists regimes out there.

So its ok with you if Americans get blown up in a cruise missile strike. But its also ok with you if we nuke Cuba (a non beligerent nation without missile capabilities) Iran (a nation that has not ever attacked us) or North Korea? (the countries we've been picking on, which I guess is the reason you say we need to be taught a lesson) And its ok with you if people invade your home country as long as you'll be "better off". Is there anyone in the world you actually give a damn about?

If someone ‘invades’ my country then they cant be all that benevolent, can they? I would fight them.

Ok. lets go with your scenario of US military buildup which will be presented as an AIM conversation.

Because life is an AIM conversation.

So there you have it. The Japanese were going to occupy Indonesia either way. The only difference, as has already been stated, is that if we hadnt put an embargo on them they'd have been doing it with American fuel.

Japan, has 4 million troops in China fighting an army of 10 million. Suddenly, for no apparent reason, Japanese leaders under Tojo, who was never planning a war in the Pacific and wanted to invade the USSR, declares war on the Allies, America and brings them into a war. That does make sense… if by sense you mean #$^%.

Would not Lockheed and other defense contractors ramping up hiring and production be in papers? Would not massive military enlistment drives or a draft be public knowledge? It doesnt take James Bond to figure out when a nation is preparing for war on a global scale.

FDR could have said that he was preparing to send more aid, which amounts to tanks, guns and men to Britain.

Yes. It made oil scarce so that they had to economize, maybe cut things back a bit. Also, if I'm an American oil worker and I'm pumping oil, I'd feel a tiny bit shitty when servicemen started to come home with ruts in them from where tanks running on my oil ran them over.

No. It made Japanese leaders desperate and declare war on an unready America and an overextended alliance.

This post has been edited by Snake Logan: 08 February 2008 - 04:50 PM

[Snake Logan]

{trying to excuse religious genocide in Afghanistan by the Taliban}
{trying to say that the Taliban are not Fascists by drawing parallels to Hitler’s Germany}

Because when Mussolini came to power, he tried to wipe out all the Jews in his country.

You have yet to provide any record of his so called stupid mistakes. The worst youve levied against him that he failed to give Japan oil which is being hotly debated. That so far as I can recall is the only alleged mistake you've brought up. So a better reading of that sentence would be "He did one thing that I view as a stupid mistake but which no one else does"

The ‘alleged’ mistake was he provoked a belligerent and resource desperate country without having a proper military.

Yes. The Japanese NAVY was very hard pressed to conquier INLAND FUGGING CHINA. They clearly had their hands full and had no ships or planes to spare for anything considering all the naval operations that must have been going on against the Chinese communist and nationalist fighters in INLAND FUGGING CHINA.

And I bet they felt really silly for using those boats that could have done so well in the middle of the Chinese mainland to attack an enemy that was only
Allied with the enemies of Japans allies.
The largest fleet and largest army besides Japan's in the Pacific
The biggest concentration of boats available with few defenses.
Clearly eventually going to go to war with Japan

The Japanese navy invaded Guam, the Philippines and Indonesia? It seems to me that they navy could not start a war without the blessing of the army.

[Simperin' Fool]

I have been very specific in what bread I am against

Ciabatta? Ooh, I hate that stuff; it's so tough and chewy, it hurts my teeth.

[Edit] Ha, Ciabattaban, the pastry terrorists.

This post has been edited by Simperin' Fool: 08 February 2008 - 04:46 PM

[Snake Logan]

What are you on about?

[Simperin' Fool]

Nothing, nevermind.

Japan, has 4 million troops in China fighting an army of 10 million. Suddenly, for no apparent reason, Japanese leaders under Tojo, who was never planning a war in the Pacific and wanted to invade the USSR, declares war on the Allies, America and brings them into a war. That does make sense… if by sense you mean #$^%.

The Axis sought global domination. They wanted world war, and Japan's strategy was to cripple the U.S.'s ability to intervene and get in the way of their plans elsewhere.

[Snake Logan]

Give me evidence that the Japanese leadership planned to carry out an attack against America before America put a trade embargo on Japan.

This post has been edited by Snake Logan: 08 February 2008 - 05:17 PM

[?!!]

Give me evidence that the Japanese leadership planned to carry out an attack against America before America put a trade embargo on Japan.

*snap!*

Damn. There goes the fun. Goodbye fun. You're just going to repeat the same statements over and over again, no matter how many times you're proven wrong. So now it's boring.

[Snake Logan]

You haven’t proven anything wrong. Give me a source or shut the hell up.

[J m HofMarN]

Yes you're right by that logic. However I'm also right to call them Islamic Viet Cong. And since the CSA used guerilla tactics in the civil war, I'm right to call them Islamic Confederat Cavalry. And since the Christians did mean things to Jews when they got desperate in teh crucades I'm right to call them Islamic Christians. When one assumes your logic to be right your conclusion is right. Problem is your logic is faulty.

No. It would be Vietcong Fascists. CSA Fascists. Catholic/Clerical Fascists. I don’t know why you think Islam has anything to do with those groups.

Because they're all fascists in your narrow minded world view? Honestly man, I've run with anarchists who didnt spew that word as often as you do. You're starting to remind me of Hannibal, the father of all trolls.

You have no right to accuse me of anything or being apart of any group.

Wait wait... Muslims are fascists because they will do bad things when they're desperate, but I can't accuse you of thinking like Bush because you use a term him and his handlers coined? You like dichotomies so here's one:

If you call people Islamic Fascists you're with Bush. If you don't you're not.

Al Qaeda is a terrorist group and I doubt it has anything to do with any of the Islamic Fascists regimes out there.

Those who blow themselves up are strict to the code of Islam. They are Clerical Fascists and more specifically they are Islamic Fascists.

The terrorists in 9/11 were Islamic Fascists. Those fighting in Afghanistan are Islamic Fascists. But I am not here to debate that. I already won that debate in another thread.

Quote number 1 seems kinda in conflict with quotes 2 and 3. Explanation?

Oh and my source was your posts on page 2 of this thread. Need a link or can you find it all by yourself?

Japan, has 4 million troops in China fighting an army of 10 million. Suddenly, for no apparent reason, Japanese leaders under Tojo, who was never planning a war in the Pacific and wanted to invade the USSR, declares war on the Allies, America and brings them into a war. That does make sense… if by sense you mean #$^%.

They didnt declare war. They took a golden opportunity to sneak attack the US and put them out of the war. That opportunity would have been there oil or no oil.

FDR could have said that he was preparing to send more aid, which amounts to tanks, guns and men to Britain.

Different stuff. The Atlantic required battleships, artillery, tanks, etc. And it would have been on the ATLANTIC coast.l The Pacific required fighters, bombers, carriers, marines and mortars. And those would have been on the PACIFIC coast. I think Japan can tell the difference if the buildup was 2000 miles in the wrong direction for Europe.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 08 February 2008 - 11:44 PM

[J m HofMarN]

{trying to excuse religious genocide in Afghanistan by the Taliban}
{trying to say that the Taliban are not Fascists by drawing parallels to Hitler’s Germany}

Because when Mussolini came to power, he tried to wipe out all the Jews in his country.

Youre comparing blowing up stone statues of Budha to the holocaust? No. Just no.

The ‘alleged’ mistake was he provoked a belligerent and resource desperate country without having a proper military.

They had plenty of oil if they'd stopped their invasion of Asia. Hey, maybe that was what he hoped they'd do? And the US had a better navy than Japan to start out with.

The Japanese navy invaded Guam, the Philippines and Indonesia? It seems to me that they navy could not start a war without the blessing of the army.

No the navy bombed pearl harbor. That's what we're talking about if you can manage to keep your mind on one thing for five minutes.

Give me evidence that the Japanese leadership planned to carry out an attack against America before America put a trade embargo on Japan.

Over the next decade, Japan expanded slowly into China leading to all out war between the two in 1937. In 1940 Japan invaded French Indochina in an effort to embargo all imports into China, including war supplies purchased from the US. This move prompted the IJN to estimate that it had less than two years of bunker oil remaining and to support the existing plans to seize oil resources in the Dutch East Indies. Planning had been underway for some time on an attack on the "Southern Resource Area" to add it to the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere Japan envisioned in the Pacific.

The 1937 Japanese attack against China was condemned by the U.S. and by several members of the League of Nations, particularly Britain, France, Australia, and the Netherlands. These states had economic and territorial interests, or formal colonies, in Southeast Asia, and had become increasingly alarmed at Japan's military power and willingness to use it, which they saw as threats to their control in Asia. In July 1939, the U.S. terminated the 1911 U.S.-Japan commercial treaty. These efforts failed to deter Japan from continuing the war in China nor from signing both the Anti-Comintern Pact with Nazi Germany and the Tripartite Pact with Germany and Italy forming the Axis Powers.

The Tripartite Pact, war with China, increasing militarization and Japan's withdrawal from the League of Nations eventually led the U.S. to embargo scrap metal and gasoline shipments to Japan and to constrain its actions and close the Panama Canal to Japanese shipping. In 1941, Japan moved into northern IndoChina.[2] The U.S. responded by freezing Japan's assets in the U.S. and embargoing all oil exports to Japan.[3]

Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia....on_Pearl_Harbor

You haven’t proven anything wrong. Give me a source or shut the hell up.

First off proving something that is wrong is impossible as if an assertion is incorrect (as many of yours are) it can't be proven.

Also, I gave you a source, so I think SF is still allowed to speak. Or whoever you were addressing with that.

Source- Your mom.

Oh, and

Tojo, who was never planning a war in the Pacific and wanted to invade the USSR

Do you have any understanding of just how fucked Russia was? The Germans were on the outskirts of moscow and you're saying we should have let the Japanese invade Eastern Russia? The Eastern front would have crumbled under the double pressure and it's almost certain the Nazis would have either won or attained a stalemate. Come on, use some basic strategy.

Japan had proven able to beat the crap out of the Russians in the Russo Japanese war where they destroyed a good chunk of Russia's fleet. Germans were wandering around Stalingrad and Moscow's suburbs. And your belief is that on a global scale or for the US it would have been better to let Japan join the assault on Russia and wait to enter the war while the last vestiges of red resistance were shredded?

The Russians had more people in the war than just about any other nation. So you must be claiming that if the US had waited a while to enter the war our strength would have been

A: Greater than Russia's
B: Would have been enough to defeat Germany with only Britain as an allie fighting on one front against them
C: Have ALSO been enough to defeat an assault by Japan against our Western territory while we fought Germany in the East. (yes, we did do that, but that was partly because the Russian counter attack shredded the Nazi's power. If Russia had been out of the war by the time we entered it is easy to consider a different outcome very likely)

Since neither of those 3 statements is true we must assume that Roosevelts decision to embargo Japan, even if it did lead to war, was a wise one as it kept pressure off of Russia and forced Japan to spread out her resources and not press the already exhausted Soviets.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 09 February 2008 - 12:05 AM

[Simperin' Fool]

Since neither of those 3 statements is true we must assume that Roosevelts decision to embargo Japan, even if it did lead to war, was a wise one as it kept pressure off of Russia and forced Japan to spread out her resources and not press the already exhausted Soviets.

Hear, hear! We entered the fight at just the right time, because if Russia had fallen, it would have been utterly hopeless. If not for their defeat on the eastern front, the Germans would never have made the gamble that cost them the war: the Battle of the Bulge. They couldn't keep up the momentum, they couldn't capture enough supplies to keep going, and then the weather cleared and the RAF blasted the Hell out of them. Game over.

This post has been edited by Simperin' Fool: 09 February 2008 - 12:10 AM

[Snake Logan]

Because they're all fascists in your narrow minded world view? Honestly man, I've run with anarchists who didnt spew that word as often as you do. You're starting to remind me of Hannibal, the father of all trolls.

I use it when I see a supremacist organization that believes in strict social and economic control and would prefer dictatorship. Sorry but the Taliban are Fascists. If you don’t want to accept that then fine.

Wait wait... Muslims are fascists because they will do bad things when they're desperate, but I can't accuse you of thinking like Bush because you use a term him and his handlers coined? You like dichotomies so here's one:

Did I say Muslims? No. I said Taliban. Your mind is really falling apart. Smoke less shrooms.

If you call people Islamic Fascists you're with Bush. If you don't you're not.

That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. To you, anyone who is not with you is against you, right? No thanks. I live in the real world.

Quote number 1 seems kinda in conflict with quotes 2 and 3. Explanation?

Oh and my source was your posts on page 2 of this thread. Need a link or can you find it all by yourself?

You don’t want to show everyone the extremist bullshit you read. It is understandable.

They didnt declare war. They took a golden opportunity to sneak attack the US and put them out of the war. That opportunity would have been there oil or no oil.

They did declare war. Unfortunately, for the Japanese, the message/ultimatum was sent by telegram and it came an hour after the attack instead of just before the attack.

Different stuff. The Atlantic required battleships, artillery, tanks, etc. And it would have been on the ATLANTIC coast.l The Pacific required fighters, bombers, carriers, marines and mortars. And those would have been on the PACIFIC coast. I think Japan can tell the difference if the buildup was 2000 miles in the wrong direction for Europe.

America could have sneaked in troops to the Philippines through Australia.