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That ancient 'religion' ... or is it?

#16 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 07:12 PM

QUOTE
Why do Star Wars characters describe the Force as a 'religion'?


The ones who do, they suggest it with a scowl.
They're smart enough to know better, and they just like to rub it in. cool.gif
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#17 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 02:18 PM

Saberist, whilst I appreciate the effort you put into your extremely long post, you're reading far too much into my original question. I made a somewhat tongue-in-cheek observation - that it makes little sense for Star Wars characters to see the Force as 'magic' or 'religion' when in their universe it's a simple scientific reality - and despite having struggled through your post to try and work out what the hell you're talking about, I still don't think you've actually answered it. We're not talking about a primitive society full of superstitious peasants, but one that is vastly more advanced than ours in terms of science and technology; the idea that no one in 25,000 years would have made efforts to understand the Force scientifically is just plain ludicrous. To be honest, I wasn't really expecting anyone to try and answer me seriously, because it clearly doesn't make sense if you give it any serious thought.

A posting tip: Please don't answer simple questions with long, rambling essays, because no one is going to bother to read them. If you have an answer, try to state it clearly and concisely. Welcome to the forums, by the way. smile.gif
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#18 User is offline   Saberist Icon

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 04:43 PM

Helena,

What I was suggesting is quite simply that if something is so basic to a function of 'the way things work' you may not be able to separate it within a finite quantifiable understanding as defined by technology. It may literally be too fine a grain to be grasped.

Ignoring the job security issues of 'proprietary trade secrets' among the various Force user cultures, consider Heisenberg's quantum paradox. You may know where the particle is within a wave but not how fast it's going. Or vice versa.

If the essence of The Force within a human mind is a sub-quantum kernal of a supra-real existence that cannot be encapsulated or replicated by a more mundane form of a contained subset reality, then technology may not be the (interface) answer.

That said, we know that Holocrons are effectively selfrepairing subquantum energy stores with a limited ability to 'think' so it may well be that the ability to hold The Force as a contained entity is in fact possible. Whether you can quantify it enough to exploit it scientifically is another matter. The implication has always been that, like the Rings Of Power, each Holocron was imprinted with similar subquanta ingrams of 'human thought' if not soul from their various owners.


KPl.

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 07:08 AM

I think Lucas should have explored the notion of blood doping, taking Midichlorian-rich blood from a donor and inhecting it into a Midichlorian-poor subject. I bet that would be a real scandal at the Jedi Olympics.

Revisiting transiently Motti, it's evident Helen sought to make uncloudy the claim that a peer could misconstrue The Force as illusory were it so plainly ubiquitous and demonstrable. Vader's choke-hold remonstrance is redundant in the Zeitgeist of the prequels. But I don't see how Thomas Covenant comes into it at all.

laugh.gif

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#20 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE (Saberist @ Jan 21 2008, 09:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If the essence of The Force within a human mind is a sub-quantum kernal of a supra-real existence that cannot be encapsulated or replicated by a more mundane form of a contained subset reality, then technology may not be the (interface) answer.

That said, we know that Holocrons are effectively selfrepairing subquantum energy stores with a limited ability to 'think' so it may well be that the ability to hold The Force as a contained entity is in fact possible. Whether you can quantify it enough to exploit it scientifically is another matter. The implication has always been that, like the Rings Of Power, each Holocron was imprinted with similar subquanta ingrams of 'human thought' if not soul from their various owners.

I'm sorry, Saberist, but I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. I'm not a quantum physicist, and I honestly don't see how all this talk about 'subquanta ingrams' and the like has any bearing on my (extremely simple) original point. If you can't explain yourself in everyday, non-technical language, there's really no point in us discussing this.

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Jan 22 2008, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think Lucas should have explored the notion of blood doping, taking Midichlorian-rich blood from a donor and inhecting it into a Midichlorian-poor subject. I bet that would be a real scandal at the Jedi Olympics.

I'm honestly surprised this didn't occur to Lucas (it certainly has to may fanfic writers). God, I hate the Midichlorian crap.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#21 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 04:08 PM

I'm not sure what he means by the Force being contained as an "in fact" possibility. either. He tries talking about quantum physics, but that goes nowhere, and then he mentions something called "holocrons" withing the framework of a discussion of "in fact" possibility. Not wanting to look like a doofus, I used the internet to tell me that Holocrons are a fictional crystal structure in the STAR WARS Expanded Universe. So, cross purposes there; he's talking about fictional "in fact," not "in fact" in fact. If I'm the last to identify that, I weep with apology.

So no, saberist, I don't think you've come any closer to explaining your point, and so I can't be sure you really understood Helena's, that a real and physical and obvious phenomenon could have any place in a "religion."

Giving a serious answer to Helena's original point, we were to understand in STAR WARS that study of The Force was an ancient and fringe thing, that most had never heard of it, that the Jedi had little influence on galactic events, and that it was possible for a guy like General Motti to think he had some kind of upper hand when he made that crack. Even in EMPIRE it works; I think the military that was suddenly under Vader had no prior experience in dealing with Force-adept nutbags, and in doing their best they found they were under the yoke of a Stalinest paranoid with the ability to throttle from a distance. In JEDI, even giant slugs are familiar with the tricks used by Force users, and they boast of their Force-proof heads. But finally it's the prequels, with the idea of Jedi being professional negotiators, of the Jedi council holding a seat n the government and owning an ivory tower in the largest city in the Republic, that thrust the ancient and fringe religion into the front and mainstream.

So again Lucas was stuck with a new idea that contradicted an older one, and the idea that anyone could be cynical was suddenly ridiculous. So of course he did what any good witer would do when faced with a problem. Rather than rewrite, he pretended there was no contradiction, said everything was all part of a master plan, accused some fans of reading too much into a "kid's movie" while simultaneously claiming inspiration in the Classics, and threw as much CGI on the screen as a film frame would allow. The result was pure cinematic genius.

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#22 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 07:35 PM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Jan 22 2008, 07:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think Lucas should have explored the notion of blood doping, taking Midichlorian-rich blood from a donor and inhecting it into a Midichlorian-poor subject. I bet that would be a real scandal at the Jedi Olympics.

Revisiting transiently Motti, it's evident Helen sought to make uncloudy the claim that a peer could misconstrue The Force as illusory were it so plainly ubiquitous and demonstrable. Vader's choke-hold remonstrance is redundant in the Zeitgeist of the prequels. But I don't see how Thomas Covenant comes into it at all.

laugh.gif


knowing that everyone was carrying around this micro organisms, if i were wiping out the jedi I'd be draining every last on eof them.
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#23 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 22 January 2008 - 11:10 PM

Dude! I'm writing a fanfic STAR WARS/ Vampire novel.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#24 User is offline   Saberist Icon

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 01:21 AM

CV#2,

QUOTE
I'm not sure what he means by the Force being contained as an "in fact" possibility, either.


The Force as it's presented in the novels does things which no 'mere machine' can detect. If that implies that only the mind can create around it a knuckle of disturbance that is The Force, either because The Force is created by it or drawn to it, then the implication is that /some part/ of the mind is not 'of this realm', even though the brain which contains it is.

Something nominally created /within/ this realm (technologic in origin) may thus not be able to contain or discern something outside of it because it is not 'of the same stuff'.

Quantums come into it via the neurosynaptic tubicles that are the smallest part of the human brain:mind interface. Scientists now theorize that these microfilament type objects at the base of nerve pairs are able to detect tunneling electron shifts as an element of a macro memory that goes beyond what is physically known of the firm-as-wetware we use. I used the analogy to support the notion that it is 'the spark' of human conscience -beyond- our world which attracts The Force and it is the sense of The Force somewhere beyond normal human awareness (in the quantum realm) which makes a Jedi, gifted with The Force.

You cannot see the wave of Force. But as a particle-awareness state within it, you can feel it's passage and perhaps have your will carried by it into volitional acts of will, physically displaced from your self.

Because, (while you are in this heightened state of consciousness) you are beyond normal conditions of scientific measure, technology may indeed /never/ be able to attract or 'go with the flow' of Force use beyond even a synthetic brain equivalent.

QUOTE
He tries talking about quantum physics, but that goes nowhere, and then he mentions something called "holocrons" withing the framework of a discussion of "in fact" possibility. N


Call it a literary device. 'In Fact' in a fictional universe goes to the notion that there are counterpoints which, -within that universe-, allow for a preserved form of consciousness to be held within the lattice matrix of a Holocron. i.e. I am playing devil's advocate here in acknowledging that Star Wars science (or at least Jedi/Sith subset equivalents) have created the equivalent of a pensieve in which a conscious state is preserved at a level that a Jedi can experience or perhaps even 'talk to' a nominally mechanical device.

QUOTE
Not wanting to look like a doofus, I used the internet to tell me that Holocrons are a fictional crystal structure in the STAR WARS Expanded Universe. So, cross purposes there; he's talking about fictional "in fact," not "in fact" in fact. If I'm the last to identify that, I weep with apology.


Truth be told, I often find that people who latch onto the obvious after they have 'figured it out' have indeed long since made the leap in the greater concept and are attempting to find something in the minor presentation of it to negate their awareness of or will to consider what I am talking about in the topic as a whole. I don't know you so, for the moment, I will suspend disbelief in your disbelief.

QUOTE
So no, saberist, I don't think you've come any closer to explaining your point, and so I can't be sure you really understood Helena's, that a real and physical and obvious phenomenon could have any place in a "religion."


Religion is an illusion that is made so by the deliberate negation of a quest for proof as a feedback loop for acceptance /thru/ understanding. Since Jedi can create quantifiable results from their command of The Force it is already outside the league of 'religion' IMO. However; that they don't show off their (limited) gifts to others without cause and since it is in fact _quite_ possible that The Force cannot be measured by scientific instruments, the notion that it is considered a religion by some because it has no quantifiable evidence of existence -to them- is an easy assumption to make.

Again, R2 in the TESB tries to detect The Force, even as Luke lifts him up. And Cannot. Since people in the SWU seem to inherently trust mechanical proofs more than living witness testimony, or potentially 'doctorable' video, it seems that The Force could easily be understood as being some hokey religious theory (though again, without active proselytizing or a named God it is still different/divergent from the norm).

QUOTE
Giving a serious answer to Helena's original point, we were to understand in STAR WARS that study of The Force was an ancient and fringe thing, that most had never heard of it, that the Jedi had little influence on galactic events, and that it was possible for a guy like General Motti to think he had some kind of upper hand when he made that crack. Even in EMPIRE it works; I think the military that was suddenly under Vader had no prior experience in dealing with Force-adept nutbags, and in doing their best they found they were under the yoke of a Stalinest paranoid with the ability to throttle from a distance. In JEDI, even giant slugs are familiar with the tricks used by Force users, and they boast of their Force-proof heads. But finally it's the prequels, with the idea of Jedi being professional negotiators, of the Jedi council holding a seat n the government and owning an ivory tower in the largest city in the Republic, that thrust the ancient and fringe religion into the front and mainstream.


Nonsense. In ANH, General Jan Dodonna says "May The Force Be With You..." So does Han. These two personalities represent the height of cultural sophistication and it's most base (cynical rather than stupid) opinion.

Furthermore, unless you believe in a scenario like this-

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=y29reK7dLLw

It is unlikely that the Jedi could remain unknown and 'fringe' as the Guardians of a 1,000 generation Republic.

QUOTE
So again Lucas was stuck with a new idea that contradicted an older one, and the idea that anyone could be cynical was suddenly ridiculous. So of course he did what any good witer would do when faced with a problem. Rather than rewrite, he pretended there was no contradiction, said everything was all part of a master plan, accused some fans of reading too much into a "kid's movie" while simultaneously claiming inspiration in the Classics, and threw as much CGI on the screen as a film frame would allow. The result was pure cinematic genius.


Now see, you can understand the use of irony as a form of 'fact within fiction'. Yet the fact remains that nobody is going to believe someone can be an effective warrior with a sword, no matter how wondrous it is. If the Jedi were just one of many in a crowd and waggled their minds as much as their fingers so that something happened a certain way, that might be different. But they are -right out there-. As uniformed (burlap bathrobe) and specialist weapon using (weak Force powered) agents for the Republic.

Were this not so. then Kenobi's comments about Vader hunting down the Jedi and Luke knowing what he meant would be impossible to justify as being within the common knowledge of society.


Saberist
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Posted 23 January 2008 - 05:53 AM

Dude, no, I'm not ignoring the main point in favour of nitpicking. But there are many things to talk about in your rambling posts, so I may stray off topic from time to time. First up you're citing examples from novels and the EU, not from the movies, so right off I have no common ground. R2 was trying to detect the Force in EMPIRE and failed? Where'd you get that? I must have seen that one more than a dozen times in my life, and I didn't see that. Of course, I don't speak robot, so maybe he weas saying "WTF-toweet?" You tell me, but it sounds like something was added in translating it to text.

Second you say it's "unlikely that the Jedi could remain unknown and 'fringe' as the Guardians of a 1,000 generation Republic." Well, agreed, but that's how they're portrayed in STAR WARS. When Lucas made that movie he had no idea he was going to make the series that he did. The JEDI he described in that film were supposed to be all but forgotten, but then we get these prequels that show they used to sit in on government sessions and they were the professional negotiators when folks moved armies against one another. In STAR WARS, some 20 years after the events of ROTS, they are scoffed. Saying that members of the Royal Family of Alderaan and thier friends still refer to the Force doesn't say anything about whether it's a science or a religion. It sure doesn't show that it's mainstream; Han only says that line out of respect for Luke. And I didn't take it that Luke did know what Ben was telling him, or Ben wouldn't have needed to tell it to him. If Luke already knew what the Force was, then why did Ben describe it to him, and if Luke already knew who the Jedi were, then why did Ben give the history lesson? If it's as you say, then that's some crappy dialogue.

All that other stuff about quantum mechanics and so on, about finding scientific ways of "proving" the Force, or of proving that there are limits to understanding, that's all well and good, but it ignores the main deal. These Jedi can lift X-Wing fighters out of swamps with their minds. That's something that takes more than Faith, and it's visible, and anyone could see that happen. So manipulation of the Force is FACT, not Faith. James Randi wouldn't be offering these guys a million dollars to prove the existence of the thing. Even if the scientists couldn't figure out how the Midichlorians in the blood made it so that folks could do things, they wouldn't scoff and call it a superstition. They'd be just as impressed as anyone else who'd witnessed the simple and tangible and repeatable experiment of lifting things off the ground from a distance with no apparent machinery.

Since you're obfuscating your argument with stuff from pop-physics, EU nonsense and Harry Potter books, I just have to ask. Are you saying that everyone believes that the Force exists, but the religion is in how to study it? Is that the uncertain area, regardless of the Midichlorians and all that, that allows for some degree of Faith and religion? Because if so, I can meet you halfway. But if not, I still have to go with Helena on this one.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 23 January 2008 - 05:56 AM

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#26 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 07:24 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Jan 23 2008, 10:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All that other stuff about quantum mechanics and so on, about finding scientific ways of "proving" the Force, or of proving that there are limits to understanding, that's all well and good, but it ignores the main deal. These Jedi can lift X-Wing fighters out of swamps with their minds. That's something that takes more than Faith, and it's visible, and anyone could see that happen. So manipulation of the Force is FACT, not Faith. James Randi wouldn't be offering these guys a million dollars to prove the existence of the thing. Even if the scientists couldn't figure out how the Midichlorians in the blood made it so that folks could do things, they wouldn't scoff and call it a superstition. They'd be just as impressed as anyone else who'd witnessed the simple and tangible and repeatable experiment of lifting things off the ground from a distance with no apparent machinery.

Civ: I was going to reply to Saberist's post with a similar comment, but you've summed it up so perfectly that I don't really have anything to add.

QUOTE
Giving a serious answer to Helena's original point, we were to understand in STAR WARS that study of The Force was an ancient and fringe thing, that most had never heard of it, that the Jedi had little influence on galactic events, and that it was possible for a guy like General Motti to think he had some kind of upper hand when he made that crack.

Actually this was an issue even in the original Star Wars. We see that many people view the Jedi as a bunch of mad kooks, yet we're told that they protected the entire Republic for a thousand generations, and it's implied that they had a major role in the Clone Wars. Let's face it, this has always been something of a plot hole (though it's made worse by the portrayal of the Jedi in the Prequels). It's not a major issue, but it does contradict Lucas's assertion that he had the whole story planned out in detail right from the start.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#27 User is offline   Saberist Icon

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 02:51 PM

CV#2,

QUOTE
Dude, no, I'm not ignoring the main point in favour of nitpicking. But there are many things to talk about in your rambling posts, so I may stray off topic from time to time. First up you're citing examples from novels and the EU, not from the movies, so right off I have no common ground. R2 was trying to detect the Force in EMPIRE and failed? Where'd you get that? I must have seen that one more than a dozen times in my life, and I didn't see that. Of course, I don't speak robot, so maybe he weas saying "WTF-toweet?" You tell me, but it sounds like something was added in translating it to text.

Second you say it's "unlikely that the Jedi could remain unknown and 'fringe' as the Guardians of a 1,000 generation Republic." Well, agreed, but that's how they're portrayed in STAR WARS. When Lucas made that movie he had no idea he was going to make the series that he did. The JEDI he described in that film were supposed to be all but forgotten, but then we get these prequels that show they used to sit in on government sessions and they were the professional negotiators when folks moved armies against one another. In STAR WARS, some 20 years after the events of ROTS, they are scoffed. Saying that members of the Royal Family of Alderaan and thier friends still refer to the Force doesn't say anything about whether it's a science or a religion. It sure doesn't show that it's mainstream; Han only says that line out of respect for Luke. And I didn't take it that Luke did know what Ben was telling him, or Ben wouldn't have needed to tell it to him. If Luke already knew what the Force was, then why did Ben describe it to him, and if Luke already knew who the Jedi were, then why did Ben give the history lesson? If it's as you say, then that's some crappy dialogue.

All that other stuff about quantum mechanics and so on, about finding scientific ways of "proving" the Force, or of proving that there are limits to understanding, that's all well and good, but it ignores the main deal. These Jedi can lift X-Wing fighters out of swamps with their minds. That's something that takes more than Faith, and it's visible, and anyone could see that happen. So manipulation of the Force is FACT, not Faith. James Randi wouldn't be offering these guys a million dollars to prove the existence of the thing. Even if the scientists couldn't figure out how the Midichlorians in the blood made it so that folks could do things, they wouldn't scoff and call it a superstition. They'd be just as impressed as anyone else who'd witnessed the simple and tangible and repeatable experiment of lifting things off the ground from a distance with no apparent machinery.

Since you're obfuscating your argument with stuff from pop-physics, EU nonsense and Harry Potter books, I just have to ask. Are you saying that everyone believes that the Force exists, but the religion is in how to study it? Is that the uncertain area, regardless of the Midichlorians and all that, that allows for some degree of Faith and religion? Because if so, I can meet you halfway. But if not, I still have to go with Helena on this one.


Which makes no sense to me since it is more plausible to link fiction within fiction as a comparison illustrative fact. Suspension Of Disbelief requires it. Cognitive synthesis as creativity exploits it.

The Novel. I believe as R2 stands in the rain outside the hut. And then again as Luke lifts him.

No Ben is quite explicit when he describes the Jedi in ANH as 'Guardians of the Republic for a 1,000 Generations...' Given what we see of their abilities, it seems highly unlikely that they are 'too subtle to be detected'.

Given nobody else carries 'a more civilized weapon' and Ben does little with The Force that could be called 'stupendously obscure' it stands to reason that the Jedi were indeed well known for being _highly visible_ protectors.

Yet the Clone Wars are not forgotten and that sets the time frame (within one lifespan) for the period when Jedi participated in a widely known conflict. Luke doesn't fail to recognize the term, Clone Wars.

Red Leader doesn't scoff. Leia doesn't scoff. Tarkin doesn't scoff. Dodonna doesn't scoff. With one exception, none of these are 'royalists', nor are the Jedi specifically associated with Royalty. Having said that, there is no real dichotomy or marginalization of opinion between the PT and the OT. In the OT, the Jedi were punked because they were ancient has beens. In the PT they were chumped because they could not fight at all well enough to compete on a modern battlefield. Again, it is easy to see the failings of something you don't understand and employ them as a method to exonerate your own weaknesses. As Motti's psychology indicates.

It doesn't have to, it simply needs to make clear that _the Jedi_ are not unknowns but simply a movement (like the cathars or gnostics) 'whose fire has gone out of the universe'. Since the phrase: 'May The Force Be With You.' is itself not unknown or forbidden knowledge restricted to the Jedi it can thus be assumed that they and The Force belief are both known in the universe and that neither is required to exist in spite of or because of a given correlate tagging label.

To Jedi, The Force is a living, breathing 'codified' doctrine. Because they feel it's mechanics as internal sense of limitations in what is and is not possible.
To Non-Jedi, The Force may be dogma. Because it is hard to associate rules with what you cannot sense as vectors of cause and effect.

You may not know the names of all the Popes but if I tell you Pope Benedict II, you're not likely to fail to recognize that his name as being associated with The Catholic Church. Knowing what the Church did in the Middle East, and Europe throughout the dark and middle ages, you may not feel that this qualifies the pope to much praise, yet he is still Pope. And it is still Catholicism.

The Jedi are both the warriors and The Order which inspired them. Until and unless you define the term Jedi better, the notion that science as a working doctrine and dogma as faith driven religion cannot be better differentiated or integrated.

On a related theme: The Purge is similar to the Friday The 13th Massacre of the Templars. Do most people know that the Templars were Knights? Yes. Do they know that their order was a manifestation of Church policy to recognize and exploit the wealth of the returning Crusaders by giving them a writ? Not so much. Yet it is the theocracy of the Church which gave and ultimately took away the Templar powerbase.

Luke knows what a Jedi is. I believe the line is something along the lines of "I was a Jedi Knight, the same as your father was..." "Oh no, my father was a navigator on a Spice freighter..."

No it is in fact critically central to the argument. Because it goes to show how a completely accessible 'real' power is not necessarily measurable by technical means and thus could be treated as 'magic' (naturalist/non-aligned supernatural powers) or 'religious' (something that is _worshiped without proof_ as much as much associated with a specific godhead.). Even if the doctrinal limits of it's exp​ression are known, as a matter of practical use, they may not be quantifiable using 'scientific method'.

No. Yoda can. The rest are lucky to lift a few rocks and _in Star Wars_ none do, during combat.

Sigh, there is a saying that any technology sufficiently advanced seems like magic. But the opposite is also true. At /some level/ of advancement, you can no longer build a tool to contain or manipulate the magic. Because you are at such an elemental state of energy-not-matter existence that 'it just is'. Where that interaction occurs at a level that includes something beyond the limits of our world (effectively making Jedi anchored in both the mundane and supranormal realms) it is quite possible that 'in the absence of any technological understanding on the other side' something is made to seem like it is magic or religious because the effect (or sideeffect) of the supranormal realm can be felt here, without measurable effects as to why.

To people who have grown up centered around the concept of technology being everything, this is a very disturbing limitation to a basic desire to encompass something with definitions or descriptions and then manipulate the laws of the definition to manipulate The Force. The Force _just is_.

Ah, now here you taint your own argument. For if I am not allowed to bring up a possible understanding for how The Force exists using our physics, then neither can you. While if the Midi test was 'standard' and given to every child as a function of establishing a medical history that the Jedi might 'harvest', statistically, for adepts, then Schmi and Anakin would both know about the testing already.

I findi it humorous that you feel you can set what is and is not allowable within the scope of 'just Star Wars' vs. the EU yet have no problems stealing from the PT to support non-existent (non-created) ideals of the OT.

More likely they would be divided into two groups:

1. Those who feared. And either wanted to destroy or deny what they saw (this is the group that signed off on burning their neighbors as witches in the Middle Ages).

2. Those who were jealous. And either wanted to own/exploit the ability for their own good or destroy it so that no one else could have it or compete with them at unfair
advantage.

No. I am actually doing quite the opposite of 'obfuscation'-

>
Obfuscation is the concealment of meaning in communication, making it confusing and harder to interpret.
>

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Obfuscation

In explaining things in some detail, hoping to find a level for which your narrow awareness can resonate a emperical or philosophical understanding. You might call it digressive confusion on your part but not obfuscation on mine. Particularly since I answer each segment of your post, in context and correlate it with my own views using terminology which should be accessible to your displayed intellect and education level.

As to my beliefs, I am saying that the inhabitants of the physical Universe know that the Jedi existed and most likely that they believed in something called The Force. But that having been without living reinforcement of that apparent 'magic' they now find it easier to deny the belief (Sasquatch, UFOs, Merlin, God/The Devil) without proof, either for convenience of guilt (the Jedi weren't nothin' special so therefore their betrayal is not important) or fear (If the Magic is itself endemic to everything and now we have no one to interpret it's existence and prove it's limits, how will we know when we trespass upon it?).

The human mind is a wondrous thing, but it tends to work off a complex system of branching label relations rather than specific experiential recollection. If you cannot label the boogie man, it is dangerous and thus better not known. If you can, acknowledging it's worth becomes relative to your own vulnerabilities and needs to focus on other things 'beyond that which you cannot deal with'.

By putting it in it's own narrow little cell of reality and throwing away the key, you bind it to that area of your conscience where you can deal with it rather than having it pop up inconveniently in every little thing.

That said:

1. Religion. That which is a bureaucratic and structural construct of organized/dogmatic spiritualism.
2. The Force. A proveable mysticism which some accept and some don't. Like not crossing paths with a
black cat or throwing salt over your shoulder only with the potential for realworld dispelling of disbelief.
3. The Jedi. _Practitioners_ of the practical mysticism known as The Force. Whether others believe
in their powers or not. Because they have both a secular and a spiritual grounding, they are
remembered for their effects on the Galaxy as much as their 'quaint beliefs'.
4. Faith. That which reinforces access to the mystical if it allows for an instinctive grasp beyond our
notional belief in what reality is vs. can be. Or which contravenes that ability by making the assumption that
you cannot quantify a desire without corrupting it with labels. It just depends on how regimented your
understanding of the term and thus your approach to the magic that exists 'with or without it' is.
5. Mysticism, that which believes in an arcane existence of reality deeper than the immediate 'proveable'
one, independent of emperical proof of perception. In this, I yield to Wiki-

>
Mysticism (from the Greek μυστικός mystikos, an initiate of the Eleusinian Mysteries; μυστήρια mysteria meaning "initiation"[1]) is the pursuit of achieving communion, identity with, or conscious awareness of ultimate reality, the divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, or insight. Traditions may include a belief in the literal existence of dimensional realities beyond empirical perception, or a belief that a true human perception of the world goes beyond current logical reasoning or intellectual comprehension. A person delving in these areas may be called a Mystic.
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism

Since it basically allows for a description of the universe in which 'all may be known but the unknowable'. The latter of which is -perceived- as both itself. And it's causal outcome effects upon mundane existence. But which is so far beyond quantifiable science as to be magic to those who can only think in terms of 'real or not real' proofs of technology.

CONCLUSION:
In essence, Helena's argument (20,000 years and nobody understands it any better than is shown...) is the answer within the question. Given: The universe will keep on cooking another 13-50 billion years, depending on which school you follow, will there always be a time when technology is the only way to tap the primal forces of physics and nature? Or will there come a point where the sheer awareness of all things at their most subtle levels, connects us to them without an intermediate interface crutch?

To bastardize the quote: 'And when we are done with all our journeying, it will be to return to where we started, and know it for the first time...'

If man ever had magic, and lost it due to thinking too much or thinking too little, it may well be that technology and science is the system by which we imprint more than an instinctive understanding of universality as a system of causal efficiencies by which a greater supranorm beyond our reality integrates within ourselves as much as our 'faith as a lack of proof', process-driven, understanding of same. At the same time, though undoubtedly manipulative, elitist and singular in it's exp​ression of that understanding, religion may be the one bulwark that reminds us not to stop believing that that 'greater connection' awaits a more wisened rediscovery.


KPl.


P.S. Forgive me, I had to remove the individual block quotes as the forum rules seem to be unhappy with that.
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#28 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 05:20 PM

All the guys you mention who still believd in the Force were the Rebels. We're to believe that the Rebels are a minority who seek to restore the old order. Fine. The Imperials, apart from Vader, seem to prefer echnology to magic. This was the main theme of STAR WARS, that magic should exist within the technological world. Terry Gilliam did it better in, well, everything, but Lucas was trying to make an argument for the Imagination, an argument he admitted in interviews he didn't really uphold. "I've created a technological world I don't entirely hate," he said. Anyway, when Luke turned off the computer and used the old magic to destroy the technological nightmare that Tarkin had created, well, there's the theme right there. So yeah, there were rebels still saying "May the Force be With You," but IMO it had all the meaning of throwing salt over your shoulder. When they referred to the Clone Wars, they were NOT referring to the stuff that happened in AOTC; they were referrring to asny of a number of nebulous ideas floating around in Lucas's head, but NOT to what we eventually got.

Anyway, getting back to it, you seem to disagree with Helena on this one main point. You think that were we able to see clear and obvious miracles, and were we able to find that an organism existed that facilitated those miracles, and were we able to repeat and study and broadcast those miracles, we'd still contain them within a thing called "religion," and it would still be possible for proponents of technology to scoff at them and to call them outdated and useless. You may be right, and Helena disagrees. I for my part don't get the Jedi religion either; I have no clear idea what they believe. It's just a lot of "clear your mind," and "the tiniest and most fleeting angry impulse will lead you to a life of murder and darkness, only forgiveable if you rescue your son from execution." It made little sense to me then, and makes little now.

Plus all that stuff I said about tossing around X-Wings and force-proof heads.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 24 January 2008 - 05:43 PM

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#29 User is offline   Helena Icon

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 08:42 AM

I've given up trying to have a sensible conversation with this guy.
QUOTE
The sandpeople had women and children. We know this because Anakin killed them how could he tell? The children might be smaller but I never saw a sandperson with breasts. Did they hike their skirts and show him some leg or something?

QUOTE
Also, I can see the point of wanting to kidnap a human and use her as a slave, but they didn't. They tied her to a flimsy easel for a month. It's assumed they had to feed and give her water. What for? Was she purely ornamental? I can understand them wanting the droids, you can sell those for a lot of money, but a chick who's only skills are finding non-existand mushrooms and getting randomly pregnant, you're not going to get much.

- J m HofMarN on the Sand People
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#30 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 24 January 2008 - 09:34 AM

I'm not an Agnostic, so I may be predisposed to accepting belief. The actions in Star Wasr, the "magic", far as I understood, were based on spiritual help. Call and Response.
Not that it didn't help explain why the droids' pod landed near Luke's house; I was just comfortable believing it. It held up for one film and a few minutes of the next.
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