[Snake Logan]

You yourself said that Muslim regimes were Islamic Fascist and you compared the VC and NVA to the Nazis. So I ask again, would they be better off bowing down to the wonderful democratic US?

I said that they carried national socialist ideals. Didn’t they? Rather then ‘bowing down’ to international socialists, they decided to concentrate on their country alone.

National socialism = rightwing communism.

And I respect the struggle of Vietcong and North Vietnamese Army, even if they did send millions of people to be concentration camps after the war. But hey, those people were probably traitors. I don’t mean this as a sarcastic remark.

Yeah, yeah they do. You see Snake, when people go out and kill other people, and those people are not linked to the government or police, it's not a war crime and it wont be blamed on the country as a whole. Whatever the alleged drug lords are doing is their own thing and has/had little to do with the democratically elected government of Chechnya.

The problem with this is that the Chechnyan drug lord admitted/boasted that he ordered the slaughter of Russian children on video. If he can talk about things like that freely, think about what else he has done that he hasn’t said on tape. As for Russian war crimes, the worst I can get is the levelling of Groznyy which was done because there were drug runners in every building, not out of pleasure like the crimes of the opposition.

When the Russians commit war crimes it follows a chain of command and is done by army and intelligence forces under the employ of their wonderful democracy (teehee).

What do you know? Russia is actually putting those who commit crimes in her name on trial. Are the Chechnyan drug lords doing that? No.

This post has been edited by Snake Logan: 16 February 2008 - 07:52 AM

[Snake Logan]

Ignore the previous post.

You yourself said that Muslim regimes were Islamic Fascist and you compared the VC and NVA to the Nazis. So I ask again, would they be better off bowing down to the wonderful democratic US?

I said that they carried national socialist ideals. Didn’t they? Rather then “bowing down” to international socialists, they decided to concentrate on their country alone.

Yeah, yeah they do. You see Snake, when people go out and kill other people, and those people are not linked to the government or police, it's not a war crime and it wont be blamed on the country as a whole. Whatever the alleged drug lords are doing is their own thing and has/had little to do with the democratically elected government of Chechnya. When the Russians commit war crimes it follows a chain of command and is done by army and intelligence forces under the employ of their wonderful democracy (teehee).

Oh really? Russia is actually putting those who commit crimes in her name on trial. Are the Chechnyan drug lords doing that? No.

What’s that sound? Oh! Its you’re argument crashing in on itself.

This post has been edited by Snake Logan: 16 February 2008 - 08:06 AM

[Slade]

Russia is a government. Drug lords are not. Also ^your, not you're.

[Snake Logan]

Russia is a government. Drug lords are not. Also ^your, not you're.

So since they are not a government, they don’t have to put war criminals on trail? How convenient. I think you will find that an armed rebel group is as equally responsible for the maintaining of international law as the official armed forces of the country is.

[Simperin' Fool]

So since they are not a government, they don’t have to put war criminals on trail? How convenient. I think you will find that an armed rebel group is as equally responsible for the maintaining of international law as the official armed forces of the country is.

It's a little-known fact that the Mafia, Yakuza, and Chinese Triads are outspoken members of the World Court.



I can see where you're coming from, but criminals with legal obligations? That's an oxymoron.

There is a Chechnyan government, and the drug lords ain't it. I mean, Russia using crime syndicates in Chechnya as an excuse to invade is comparable to the U.S. using WMDs in Iraq as an excuse to invade. Like if Mexico suddenly decided to invade Texas because it used to be a part of Mexico and because some Texans are horrible racists, or something. It makes no logical sense.

This post has been edited by Simperin' Fool: 16 February 2008 - 11:07 PM

[Snake Logan]

I can see where you're coming from, but criminals with legal obligations? That's an oxymoron.

My point was that Russia is following the rules of war as best as it can, unlike their counterparts.

There is a Chechnyan government,

And guess what? Their pro-Russian so I doubt they are the ones committing the crimes.

I mean, Russia using crime syndicates in Chechnya as an excuse to invade is comparable to the U.S. using WMDs in Iraq as an excuse to invade. Like if Mexico suddenly decided to invade Texas because it used to be a part of Mexico and because some Texans are horrible racists, or something. It makes no logical sense.

Russia sent troops to Chechnya in the first war because Chechnyan drug lords were committing crimes against the Russian population in Chechnya. Russia sent troops to Chechnya in the second war (this is when Russia trusted Chechnya with wide autonomy) because Chechnyan drug lords (and foreign nationals bent on Jihad) were committing crimes against the Russian population in southern Russia. Russia is trying to contain these rightwing nut jobs before they can hurt more people, Chechnyans included.

This is nothing like Iraq or Texas.

[J m HofMarN]

I said that they carried national socialist ideals. Didn’t they? Rather then ‘bowing down’ to international socialists, they decided to concentrate on their country alone.

Ah I see, so you werent trying to infer that they were nazis after earlier calling them fascists? You remain blissfully ignorant of the negative connotations implied when you call someone a national socialist? Why is it that so many of these terms youre applying to groups you dont like seem to be insanely negative and libelous? Is that just an accident? I have a hard time believing that you're ignorant enough to spew words like that without hoping they'll gain you favor by making it look like I'm supporting nazi vietnamese guerillas.

National socialism = rightwing communism.

Hey this is fun. I'll make up my own meanings for insulting terms and then call you them.

You're a cocksucking ass master. But only in the sense that cocksucking ass master means "a person who talks about fascists"

levelling of Groznyy... was done because there were drug runners in every building

Wow. That is a fucking magnificent reasoning. You would have us all believe that not only was Chechny ruled by drug lords but that... that the ENTIRE POPULATION OF ITS CAPITAL CITY consisted of drug runners. You have truly opened a new chapter in the annals of nonsense arguments. But why stop there? I suggest that we bomb Slade's university because it's full of Slades.

What do you know? Russia is actually putting those who commit crimes in her name on trial. Are the Chechnyan drug lords doing that? No.

The US puts people on trial for war crimes too and much like Russia they're all enlisted men. The highest rank in this case was a colonel, which actually is kind of impressive. The thing is these abuses are endemic and such widespread human rights abuse has to come from higher up. So until the people who give the orders for it are put on trial this is just showmanship.

And no, the Chechens are not doing that because those who are resisting Russia are too busy hiding in the mountains or being tortured to do so.

My point was that Russia is following the rules of war as best as it can, unlike their counterparts.

Theyre fighting an unconventional war agaisnt a vastly superior invading force. Those under occupation have an obligation to do anything they can to gain their freedom.

And guess what? Their pro-Russian so I doubt they are the ones committing the crimes.

Ah yes. people who sell out their country to a foreign occupier clearly have the highest moral fibre.

[Snake Logan]

Ah I see, so you werent trying to infer that they were nazis after earlier calling them fascists? You remain blissfully ignorant of the negative connotations implied when you call someone a national socialist? Why is it that so many of these terms youre applying to groups you dont like seem to be insanely negative and libelous? Is that just an accident? I have a hard time believing that you're ignorant enough to spew words like that without hoping they'll gain you favor by making it look like I'm supporting nazi vietnamese guerillas.
Hey this is fun. I'll make up my own meanings for insulting terms and then call you them.
You're a cocksucking ass master. But only in the sense that cocksucking ass master means "a person who talks about fascists"

I said that they carried national socialist ideals. Didn’t they?

Wow. That is a fucking magnificent reasoning. You would have us all believe that not only was Chechny ruled by drug lords but that... that the ENTIRE POPULATION OF ITS CAPITAL CITY consisted of drug runners. You have truly opened a new chapter in the annals of nonsense arguments. But why stop there? I suggest that we bomb Slade's university because it's full of Slades.

Hear that? It’s the reality train!

The US puts people on trial for war crimes too and much like Russia they're all enlisted men. The highest rank in this case was a colonel, which actually is kind of impressive. The thing is these abuses are endemic and such widespread human rights abuse has to come from higher up. So until the people who give the orders for it are put on trial this is just showmanship.

Where is the evidence? How do you know that those crimes were committed with any direction from above?

And no, the Chechens are not doing that because those who are resisting Russia are too busy hiding in the mountains or being tortured to do so.

Oh sorry. I guess somewhere between slaughtering children and oppressing women, they have the time to actually fight and get captured by the Russians.

Theyre fighting an unconventional war agaisnt a vastly superior invading force. Those under occupation have an obligation to do anything they can to gain their freedom.

Then Russia has an obligation to do whatever it needs to do to put down these criminals.

Ah yes. people who sell out their country to a foreign occupier clearly have the highest moral fibre.

And the criminals are trying to sell out their country to foreign jihadists because they have asked for their help. See how you’re point is invalid?

This post has been edited by Snake Logan: 17 February 2008 - 05:38 PM

[Simperin' Fool]

My point was that Russia is following the rules of war as best as it can, unlike their counterparts.

Theyre fighting an unconventional war agaisnt a vastly superior invading force. Those under occupation have an obligation to do anything they can to gain their freedom.

Then Russia has an obligation to do whatever it needs to do to put down these criminals.

"Danger, danger, circular logic detected!"

[Snake Logan]

"Danger, danger, circular logic detected!"

If you didn’t get my point and it is obvious that you didn’t: If one side doesn’t follow international then why should the other?

[Simperin' Fool]

Relax, i was making a joke.

This post has been edited by Simperin' Fool: 17 February 2008 - 08:31 PM

[Slade]

Alright, stop with the images, both of you. Nonsensical debates are to be kept in the form of text only.

[J m HofMarN]

Hear that? It’s the reality train!

Your reality train is going in the opposite direction. I didnt see a word in there about drug lord or drug runners or any kind of drugs at all. I reas about uncommon valor on the part of brave men who died by the scores defending their country, and I also noted that the entry points out the lack of any conclusive proof linking the seperatists to the bombings in Russia that supposedly justified the invasion. That article may not have helped you out, but it surely did crystalize my views on the rebels, and I can heartily announce that they have my utmost support and I hope for their victory.

Where is the evidence? How do you know that those crimes were committed with any direction from above?

Because its a bloody army. The hands do not move without the brain willing it. And lets not forget that Russia initiated the offensive conflict and had been cited in Chechnya war 1 for lack of any respect for civilian life and firing into civilians fleeing from cities.

Then Russia has an obligation to do whatever it needs to do to put down these criminals.

No. No it doesnt. A country making an offensive war does not gain the same immunities in my book as a country fighting for its freedom and existence. It was Huey Newton who said that when a man says he'll do anything to be free except whatever, he doesnt really understand oppression, or doesnt really want to be free. You dont NEED to occupy another country, but one does NEED to be free. The necessity of the thing necessitates any action required to gain freedom.

And the criminals are trying to sell out their country to foreign jihadists because they have asked for their help. See how you’re point is invalid?

No I dont see how you are point is invalid. They're not selling out. The jihadists arent giving them money. They're going to Chechnya to fight and die in a just war in the defense of innocents. Just by asking for aid one does not sell out. But if you read the very article you linked you'd learn that many of the current rulers of Checnya were living in Russia and transported back for the purpose of forming a pro russia government. One of them was even in a Russian jail for corruption and was released so he could go form the pro russian regime.

[Renegade]

I didn't read the above posts cause theres too many pages but I'd like to just sum up the obvious - Islam is a violent, and pathetically dated religion. It is by far the least understanding of anyone else and the most dangerous in terms of use of force to get what you want. Let alone the fact that the religion was LITERALLY spread through the sword and not just by its "followers" but by the "prophet" himself.

[Simperin' Fool]

Yeah, Muhammed was a warlord.