[Snake Logan]

But Civs friend is Islamic. Therefore by your own statement she does not fall under the ``other`` category. So she has to be either a self loathing yadda yadda or a die hard jyhadi trained in the mountains of Afghanerstan. Right?

Who said she had to be an Islamic Fascist? Her calling for blood could have nothing to do with her religion.

Do Westerners generally attend public beheadings a lot? Cuz if so I must have missed the last match between the Washington Axemen and the Los Angeles Kneelers.

Well there were plenty of witch burnings but that phased out. The society reflects what most individuals of that society respect and cherish.

Ask any of those countries what is the basis of their laws and they will tell you Christianity, except maybe France since they were radically secularist for a while during the revolution deal. And ask any person in the 1800s why their country has an empire overseas and I swear their answer would have been ``To spread Christianity``

I am sure that the Persians, Ancient Egyptians, Ancient Chinese, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Mongolians and Ottomans all built great empires on the basis that they wanted to spread civilization but chances are they used words like civilization to plunder the lands of the conquered. Chances are that England, France, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Germany and Belgium used Christianity for the same reasons.

Ah here we have it. The majority of Islamic populations are either champions of western ideals or blood thirsty terrorists, but somewhere out there you finally admit that there may be a tiny minority of people who dont fit either sweeping generalization. And now to help your argument I will reveal the name of this minority. His name is Steve. He lives up the street from me. He likes blueberry pie. Hello Steve.

Since when was the average person on the streets of America a champion of western ideals?

So what about the communists? Steve is a communist Muslim. Indeed there are a good many of them, they were one of the groups Saddam crushed in Iraq that we didnt give him any flack for (instead we sent him chemical weapons and such) And communists by nature are not capitalists and I dont think Steve seems very self loathing.

Communist Muslim is any oxymoron. You cannot worship an organized religion and be a communist.

[Slade]

Snake: You said a few times that she had to be one or the other. Read your own posts. Also, the banner of "civilization" has almost always included the "civilized" country's religion as being part of what makes them "civilized." The word heathen comes from words such as "heath," meaning of the bushes/woods/very rural areas. Christianity started as an urban, underground thing. Barbarian comes from the Greek or Latin term for foreigner - I can't recall which. And of course the Gaul didn't follow the same deities that the Romans/Greeks did, since religion has been a crux of many cultures throughout the history of the world. And really, society reflects what people have been duped into believing the status quo is, these days. But I don't feel like ranting about the manufacture of the Culture Industry right now, and it's another argument entirely. Anyway, you may now ask absurd and non sequitur questions, miss all of my points, and assume what is obviously the wrong thing about my posts in an effort to appear victorious.

[civilian_number_two]

Communism has nothing to do with foresaking religion. The philosophy of communism is about a classless and stateless society sharing the means of production. The business of removing religions was a soviet (and later Chinese) innovation that had to do with getting rid of a political rival, the Church.

[Snake Logan]

I think this and this sums up what Lenin, Marx and dedicated communists thought/think of religion.

This post has been edited by Snake Logan: 25 January 2008 - 08:03 AM

[Slade]

Firstly, are we talking about Marxism, socialism, or communism (i.e. the state-capitalist institutions erected in the former Soviet Union and present day China)?

Secondly, to be fair, Marx may have been acting in opposition to Hegel's optimistic, idealistic notions of Spirit, and Hegel's conclusions about epistemology and transcendental history, since the magnitude of Hegel's philosophical work, by its very nature, pitted all of the Western philosophers for the next century or so either against him or for him without much grey area.

All that aside, Marx's problem with religion seems to be with the fact that it was used as an institution of oppression, not with its entire existence. But as it stands, I think you did walk into that one a bit, Civ, and you should probably clarify what you meant, more because I'm curious than anything else.

Edit: Though to be fair, Marx didn't like the idea of some following an intangible, professedly unknowable deity, because it's not very pragmatic or scientific.

This post has been edited by Slade: 25 January 2008 - 12:33 PM

[Spoon Poetic]

I do have to admit, however, that most religions are completely the opposite philosophy of Communism at its core. In most religions, you do stuff so that you gain rewards, whether they are material or heavenly or status or power or whatever. There's an element of competition and ambition in almost every religion, and Communism frowns on those things because it creates inequality.

However, you could also argue that the rewards of the religion in question (Islam) are for the afterlife, but Communism is for the current life on Earth, so they could be perfectly compatible as long as they remain separated like that.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 25 January 2008 - 12:52 PM
Reason for edit:: Whoo, bad bad bad grammar error.

[civilian_number_two]

Again, Snake: Communism is a government philosophy. Marxism and Leninism are governors. You might as well say, based on the actions of Fred Phelps, "Christians thin Heath Ledger is going to hell. It is a basic tenet of Christianity."

[Snake Logan]

It is a government philosophy that directly opposes organized religion. All those conservative farmers opposed the communists for that very reason in and that is why Lenin/Stalin/Mao had to put them down. And communism is not a government philosophy. After 70 years of communism, the culture and society of the USSR did not resemble anything like that Russian Empire it replaced.

[Spoon Poetic]

*Clears throat* Let me get this straight...

It [communism] is a government philosophy... communism is not a government philosophy.

Wow, compelling argument you have there.

[Snake Logan]

I meant it was a social philosophy that opposed organized religion. My point is still very valid.

[civilian_number_two]

"Valid" stands on its own. The qualifier "very" draws attention to how desperate your point is. You might as well say that since international Democracies are set up in religious societies, that the philosophy of Democracy is religious. Communism is a government philosophy. The country you mentioned as your exclusive example of the philosophy of commnism didn't follow the philosophy to the letter.

Getting back to valid, let's see if your point meets the form of a classic syllogism.

The USSR practiced communism.
The USSR was anti-religion.
Therefore communism is anti-religion.

SO: If you understand the logic (please do), you'll see that your point is NOT valid. All you've argued is that the USSR was communist and also anti-religious. You haven't shown anything about communism.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 26 January 2008 - 05:25 PM

[Snake Logan]

The basic principles of communist is against organized religion. That was my point and my point is quite valid. But if you don’t want the Soviet Union as an example then simply look at other countries which had communist governments like China, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Albania, Mongolia, Vietnam, Cambodia, Korea and Germany were massive measures have/had been taken in order to limit organized religion if not destroy it outright.

This post has been edited by Snake Logan: 26 January 2008 - 08:16 AM

[Slade]

I don't think Germany has ever really had much of a communist government. And most of the countries you just listed were Soviet Satellites.

[civilian_number_two]

Cambodia also wanted to return to a feudal economy and there was a campaign to kill anoyone with any education. Communism therefore is against education.

Also Communism has as one of its founding principles that it must establish itself in a European or an Asian country. Or Cuba.

[J m HofMarN]

Jeremy-

First of all, isnt it a bit odd to be defending a country that, by your own admission, has a list of what fucked up regimes it likes the most? Wouldnt a country that, say, DOESNT have a list of what fucked up regimes it likes most be somewhat morally superior?

I think that if the US had not invaded iraq, Iran would have the bomb by now. And this would NOT be in the interest of any peaceloving american. That is DANGEROUS!

Wow. Wild speculation on utterly unrelated occurences is great in any debate. Thats why I look forward to you and Snakes reply to the following:

If the terrorists hadnt rammed the Pentagon the Nazis would have won the war. That is DANGEROUS!

Who said she had to be an Islamic Fascist? Her calling for blood could have nothing to do with her religion.

I believe I quote Keith Olbermann when I say ``What in gods name are you talking about, sir?``

Well there were plenty of witch burnings but that phased out. The society reflects what most individuals of that society respect and cherish.

Thats a lovely non sequiter. The question however was whether you consider people that routinely attend public beheadings to be Westernized.

Chances are that England, France, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Germany and Belgium used Christianity for the same reasons.

Alright so youve acknowledged that religion had something to do with it. Thanks. And please dont just say that they were used. If I happened to get nailed to a fucking cross Id kind of expect my friends to say something when George Bush went and made war in my name. Failure to speak up against something when youve been named as a party to it is collusion, and the Christian church has gone a lot further than simple failure to speak up.

Communist Muslim is any oxymoron. You cannot worship an organized religion and be a communist.

No I guess you cant surely it must be any oxymoron.

I think this and this sums up what Lenin, Marx and dedicated communists thought/think of religion.

Thats because the church was the second biggest land owner in France and Russia after the monarchy. You have to consider the historical conditions under which they worked. Modern communism however can interact well with the church with Vietnam being a good example. Cuba allows worship despite officially being an athiest state, and the restrictions on the catholic church that do exist come from the churchs collusion in the bay of pigs invasion, not from acute anti religionism.

However, you could also argue that the rewards of the religion in question (Islam) are for the afterlife, but Communism is for the current life on Earth, so they could be perfectly compatible as long as they remain separated like that.

If one followed communism on earth with its emphasis on sharing, equality, lack of competition (coveting, anyone?) etc, that sounds like it would be a step towards following the major western religious tenets.

that is why Lenin/Stalin/Mao

Mao had to put down farmers? I was under the impression that the Cuban and Chinese revolutions were agrarian in nature. Silly me.

My point is still very valid.

Ah but my point is very, very valid. ZIIING!

The basic principles of communist is against organized religion.

I`m going to assume that you mean ``The basic principals of communism are against organized religion`` In which case, having read the communist manifesto I can tell you that the basic principals of communism have nothing to do with religion. Its basically a foot note where Marx complains about how religions tell people that they should be good automatons and put up with whatever the oppressing class does to them because if they try to fight back god will be mad. You have to follow the basic principals of something, but foot notes are easier to ignore. Just ask George Bush when it comes to the constitution.

And US backed regimes, for instance Batista in Cuba and Diem in Vietnam have also had a history of crushing religion. Therefor the basic principles of the US are anti religious. But seriously. The established church will almost always get into trouble when theres a revolution whether communist or otherwise. For example the French revolution, the fascist takeovers in Italy and Germany, etc. Its not just communism.

As for Cambodia, I recall them getting their butts kicked by the NVA, AKA communist Vietnam.