[Snake Logan]

EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT, PEOPLE INVADING A COUNTRY SAY THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO INVADE THAT COUNTRY, EXTRA EXTRA.

Chechnya is not a country nor has it ever been a country. You can continue to deny this and civilian_number_two can continue to call me a troll but it doesn’t change that fact.

When you're citing a source of information, try to make sure that the source isnt the leader of one of the belligerent nations. They can tend to be a tinesy bit biased, ya know?

His judgement/statement is based on the law of the Russian constitution. Its hard to be biased when facts are involved.

[Slade]

I see what you did there. Yeah, the best thing to do when you make an international mistake that causes the deaths of thousands is to continue making it while insisting you're not doing anything wrong in the first place.

And in regards to Chechnya, when it belonged to the former USSR, the new Russian government that has strong economic and social interest in the area is not in a very good position to decide if the country/province has the right to seceed. The only way to decide it really is with civil war. I am also curious as to how post-Soviet Russia could think that using the laws of the government that just fell to pieces was an acceptable way to justify not letting a country have soverignty. "We're a new government, but the old laws we didn't like say that you can't leave, and we're sticking with that." Ridiculous to the max.

[Snake Logan]

And in regards to Chechnya, when it belonged to the former USSR, the new Russian government that has strong economic and social interest in the area is not in a very good position to decide if the country/province has the right to seceed. The only way to decide it really is with civil war. I am also curious as to how post-Soviet Russia could think that using the laws of the government that just fell to pieces was an acceptable way to justify not letting a country have soverignty. "We're a new government, but the old laws we didn't like say that you can't leave, and we're sticking with that." Ridiculous to the max.

A country have sovereignty? Chechnya was never a country. It has always been a Russian province/republic/state. And the people of Chechnya are better off having a Russian citizenship. What has Russia got to offer them? Unlimited access to all parts of Russia. Ability to buy property anywhere in Russia. Ability to get a job anywhere in Russia. What would happen if the Chechnyan guerrillas, which is a joke since half their leaders are not Chechnyan, took over Chechnya? Think about a Taliban government as a worst case scenario and a corrupt Azerbaijan government as a best case scenario.

I wouldn’t worry about it anyway. Chechnya has been very quite since the leader of the guerrillas was killed by a mine.

[Slade]

I'm not saying that it was a good idea for them to secede, just that Russia wasn't in a very good place to make the claim that they couldn't.

[Snake Logan]

Because Russia was crippled from the collapse of the USSR? I mean, Russia is the successor state of the USSR so the laws of the USSR automatically transfer to Russia. So I didn’t quite understand your previous point.

This post has been edited by Snake Logan: 04 February 2008 - 01:56 PM

[Slade]

Well, it was a new government, so Russia needed to decide what old laws were applicable and what weren't. A government can't really legitimately invoke rules of a regime that no longer exists. Really, I'd be happy if the claim was made under Russian law instead of Soviet law, but even then whether it's really a province or whatnot is still speculative, in part because the whole concept is open to interpretation, and in part because it's still a government deciding it has the right to tell a chunk that it apparently used to control that it has to stay a part of it.

Anyway, I need to get around to watching those documentaries when I get home today. I doubt anything new will come from it, but I'll give them a go. And it would be nice if the whole Islam as a strict and unquestionable institution thing were more frowned upon in the world.

[Jordan]

Point is, the only province which rebeled was one that is predominately muslim. The only part of serbia that rebelled was predominately muslim (and no, the serbs did not go in killing them for fun, they started the war by taking land, killing serbs and destroying churches and institutions) Somalia, Ethopia, Afghanistan, just about every conflict area has one thing in common.

They are not 'fighiting the man' or whatever JM believes is the case, they're not figting supression, they're fighting for sovereign Islamic run state. Which makes sense since they're call to do this by their bible.

http://www.watchdog....5...0010&lang=1

[Snake Logan]

Well, it was a new government, so Russia needed to decide what old laws were applicable and what weren't. A government can't really legitimately invoke rules of a regime that no longer exists. Really, I'd be happy if the claim was made under Russian law instead of Soviet law, but even then whether it's really a province or whatnot is still speculative, in part because the whole concept is open to interpretation, and in part because it's still a government deciding it has the right to tell a chunk that it apparently used to control that it has to stay a part of it.

The Russian constitution was rewritten in 1993 and 2003. The territorial integrity of Russia and Russian sovereignty is enforced by the constitution. It is stated in the constitution that provinces and republics like Chechnya have no right to succeed.

I think we owe Russia some credit, Russia has respected Ukrainian, Moldavian and Georgian sovereignty by not getting the fairly large Russian minorities in those countries to succeed.

This post has been edited by Snake Logan: 04 February 2008 - 02:45 PM

[civilian_number_two]

So I am also on the list of people that Snake is not actually "ignoring." I dare say his big "I'm ignoring all of you" threat was identical to the one made every hour by someone or another on some debate forum somewhere in the Internet. Common, never actually implemented. Typically it's an"I hate you all and I'm never posting again!" followed by posting, or in about 1/4 of the cases, by the creation of a brand new ID with all the same attitudes opinions and spelling errors. His is an interesting twist, no actual threat of desertion but a mention of an "ignore" list that doesn't in fact exist.

Awesome.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 05 February 2008 - 02:36 AM

[Snake Logan]

I allow individual posts from time to time. You’re latest unprovoked attack against me seems to confirm my opinion that you should stay on permanent ignore. Believe it or not, the list is as real as a virtual list can be.

[Simperin' Fool]

It's a simulation of a list...?

[Spoon Poetic]

You can't put people on ignore and "let a post through from time to time." Either they're on ignore or not. Putting them on ignore means you can't see their posts, period. You'd have to go back and forth and change your settings from "ignore this user" to not "ignore this user" to see an ignored user's post, and then you'd be able to see ALL their posts, not just the one post you want to "let through." And you couldn't determine which posts were worthy of your not ignoring, considering you wouldn't be able to see them in the first place.

So, you're either making it up, or your definition of your "ignore list" is something completely different than what we all know it to be. I'm thinking you just skip reading some posts unless a few words in it jump out to you and you think you can stir up some more trollness argument by responding to it.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 04 February 2008 - 11:10 PM

[J m HofMarN]

Chechnya is not a country nor has it ever been a country. You can continue to deny this and civilian_number_two can continue to call me a troll but it doesn’t change that fact.

Chechnya was a seperate entity until its ruler asked the Czar for protection from the Ottomans sometime within, I think, the past 200 years. After that Russia slowly subsumed Chechen sovereignty. Once the take over was accomplished rebellions began immediately and continued incrementally. There have been at least 5 wars agaisnt Russian rule in Chechnya in the last century. I dont think that makes it look like much of a part of Russia.

His judgement/statement is based on the law of the Russian constitution. Its hard to be biased when facts are involved.

No, no it isnt. Hes the leader of a country with a lot of interest in Chechnyas oil wealth. He helped write that constitution. I think its easy to be biased.

And the people of Chechnya are better off having a Russian citizenship.

Reminds me of a while ago in this topic when we were talking about the DEFUNCT concept of white man's burden.

I dont give a shit how much better off I'd be under Israeli rule. The minute an IDF tank comes into my town I'm strapping on some dynamite and stealing a gun and going to go see how much damage I can do.

But hey, if you feel you'd be better off if another country took over Australia you had your chance in World War 2.

Also, under Stalin nearly the entire ethnic Chechen population of Chechnya was deported, killed or put into gulags. At present Russian rule might offer stability, but I would never choose stability at the cost of national sovereignty.

Chechnya has been very quite since the leader of the guerrillas was killed by a mine.

And since thousands of Chechens suspected of nationalist sentiment disappeared. And since all parties advocating autonomy were outlawed.

Point is, the only province which rebeled was one that is predominately muslim.

Jordan, every former Soviet satellite fled the USSR. Everyone wanted out. And Chechnya isnt hte only one still trying to get out. The Russians are screwing around a lot with their Western neighbors. Remember the poisoning of the head of state in one of the former USSRs? In another one Russian fighters dropped a bomb near a village. And of course there was the radiation poisoning of that fellow in London. But what do I know, thats probably all Muslim doins.

It's a simulation of a list...?

It's not just a simulation of a list, it's Sid Meiers Sim Blacklist 4 gold edition! Agitate people online to create opposition and then simulate your own blacklist! Pretend that being on it has actual consequences such as not being able to work in hollywood or hold elected office! Simulate holding hearings and forcing people to name names you can add to your list. Now features multiplayer mode. Ignore your friends!

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 04 February 2008 - 11:24 PM

[Simperin' Fool]

Wow, check out those cool next-gen bloom lighting and cold shoulder effects!

XD

[civilian_number_two]

I allow individual posts from time to time. You’re latest unprovoked attack against me seems to confirm my opinion that you should stay on permanent ignore. Believe it or not, the list is as real as a virtual list can be.

Snake, my "attack" was not "unprovoked." First, it's not an attack. It's a response to your big tirade about ignoring people, a tirade that you have proven with four responses to allegedly ignored members, to be a lie. You can continue to "virtually" ignore me if you like. It's meaningless to me, since of course you're going to read my posts and respond to some of them, so I won't know when you're "virtually" ignoring me and when you're not (note correct use of "you're"). I have disagreed with just about everything you've said here, but I haven't ignored you. You want to take a disagreement as something that you should avoid, well that's for you to decide. But most would tell you that it's by listening to people who disagree with you that you run a risk of becoming better educated. If that chance is something you want to "ignore," then I take it that you either think you already have all the answers (I think you don't) or that you prefer feeling superior to people dumber than you, and will only choose to reply to those people. That's fine, but trust me; you aren't going to find those people here.