[J m HofMarN]

I hate to break it to you, but once again Muslims arent attacking us cuz of Islam, theyre attacking for socio ecnonomic and political reasons. Christianity tells hillbillies to kill abortion doctors, but the only ones who do kill abortion doctors are those who have hatred in their heart anyhow because of poor upbringing. Muslims kill Christian soldiers because Christian soldiers are on their land. Muslims would just as soon, and have, killed Muslim soldiers if it was Muslim soldiers in their countries.

Whats more I dont think theres any blame to be laid on Islam. Resisting foreign occupation, jyhad if you will, is the holy duty of all occupied people from Palestine to Vietnam to Iraq. I think the people deserve more credit then their religion for their courage.

[Jordan]

Have you ever read Leviticus or Deuteronomy? If so, do you offer burnt offerings to God? If you see a homosexual, do you kill him? If a family member tried to convert you to another religion, would you kill your whole family? If your brother died without a son, would you marry your sister-in-law? If you find that members of another town are preaching another religion, would you destroy the whole town? Because the BIBLE SAYS SO.

Christians don't live by and or follow Old Testament, infact they make bibles with only the new testament that fit in your pocket. Old testament is there for historical reasons and to show Prophecy fullfilment. Nobody is living under mosaic law. Some times I wish OT was never included just so people would shut up about it.

Historically, however, Muslims have been more tolerant than Christians. In the areas that Muslims controlled, they usually didn't mind if people practiced other religions, and they didn't treat them harshly. Whereas Christians weren't as tolerant. Look at the Crusades and the Inquisition. And that's coming from a Catholic.

Right, so explain the head tax Christians and Jews have to pay. They were only ever tolerated in small numbers and as long as they paid the tax. They were persecuted the second they became to big or decided to be political. What the hell does the crusades have to do with anything? We're talking about modern religion here, not antiquity.

The Armenian genocide was ethnic or religious cleansing of turky.

The head tax or Jizya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

Christian and Jewish numbers in Islamic countries today are fractions. You honestly believe for one minute if they were sizable that they'd be given freedom and the ability to spread/worship their religion?

You're dealing with a people who are convinced that one day every one on the planet will say "praise allah". Because the Koran commands it so, you don't see that kind of thing in any other religon.

Saladin was one man, not typical. The crusaders were mostly mercinaries under the control of a corrupt papacy, not typical.

I hate to break it to you, but once again Muslims arent attacking us cuz of Islam, theyre attacking for socio ecnonomic and political reasons.

Did you watch the link?

Muslims kill Christian soldiers because Christian soldiers are on their land. Muslims would just as soon, and have, killed Muslim soldiers if it was Muslim soldiers in their countries.

What? Where? There is no such thing as a Christian soldier, that is one of the issues here.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 21 January 2008 - 05:17 PM

[Otal Nimrodi]

What? Where? There is no such thing as a Christian soldier, that is one of the issues here.

Wouldn't a soldier who's Christian be a Christian soldier?

[Jordan]

No, a christian soldier would be some one who is fighting under the banner of christianity. There are none left today. There is no Christian officering branch that delegates laws and conduct and there is no insignia that says "fighter for the cross".

There is however, Islamic armies. Who are controlled and fight under the laws of Islam.

[Otal Nimrodi]

Ah. Thank you, I just woke up some I'm a tad literal minded.

But I think as far as THEY'RE concerned, a Christian soldier is a soldier who's Christian. They don't exactly differentiate, methinks.

I also suspect that JM doesn't differentiate...

This post has been edited by Otal Nimrodi: 21 January 2008 - 05:54 PM

[civilian_number_two]

We have Christian radicals, mainly White Supremacists, who would fit the bill of "Christian Soldiers." Also I think it's naive to say that there is a clear separation of Church and State in Western foreign policy. Sure I agree that the radical mullahs should grow up and get girlfriends, but exactly like with Christianity in the Middle Ages they are able to inspire soldiers and fanatics from the poor. To some extent local government mismanagement is keeping them poor, but also it's the bombing. They sure do get bombed a lot. Less than a year of Nazi bombing England toppled the Birtish Empire and hurt the UK economy for decades. Iraq has been bombed on and off for about 20 years now. I don't know that the two are really comparable ... I'm just saying.

[Casual]

Less than a year of Nazi bombing England toppled the Birtish Empire and hurt the UK economy for decades. Iraq has been bombed on and off for about 20 years now. I don't know that the two are really comparable ... I'm just saying.

Actually it was the crippling after effects of the US "financial aid" during the war that really fucked us over, we only finished paying it off last year. The bombing was nowhere near as effective as the Nazi's would have liked that’s why the invasion never happened.

[civilian_number_two]

Well I'm not about to get into a thing about the war and its effects, but not being able to rebuild your cities while paying off a large debt at the same time is to have been affected by a bombing campaign. I also believe that there was more to the Germans not invading Britain than the bombing campaign having been unsuccessful. As I understand it, the Germans were hoping that the bombing on its own would be enough to force a settlement, and they'd had no solid invasion plans.

[Casual]

I could poke a few holes in that theory but as you said this isn’t the time or place for such an argument.

As for the topic at hand I think it’s ridiculous to claim that either Christianity or Islam is better than the other. I mean it’s only the followers of each religion that thinks they do nothing but spread sunshine and puppies. Meanwhile it's us heathens caught in the crossfire of their petty squabbles that know better.

[Jordan]

White Supremacey groups are not represented by the government. They're not part of a military regime, they're idiot militia. If they lynch blacks in the states, they'll pay for it.

I do take into account the bombings of their cities and the sanctions. But put Iraq and Iran aside for now and...

Explain this

-Islamic up rising and control grab in Serbia, Chechnya, and Somalia

-Islamic violence in Malaysia (don't hear about it often over here) -click-

-Ivory Coast (shit, every single African country with 50% muslim population or more) http://news.bbc.co.u...ica/2701333.stm

-Nigeria and it's own going moderate muslem patrons http://news.bbc.co.u...ica/1067695.stm

-Cameroon (-click-)

Any country that is 50% or more is pretty much an Islamic run state.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 22 January 2008 - 09:46 PM
Reason for edit:: hid links to prevent side scrolling

[civilian_number_two]

White Supremacey groups are not represented by the government. They're not part of a military regime, they're idiot militia. If they lynch blacks in the states, they'll pay for it.

Yeah that's now. Christian armies created our western society and our legal system was defined by Christianity. Christians tortured and executed folks of other religions who disagreed with them until thier own rule was diluted by divisive wars and the growth of commerce. Now most of western society is about protecting the economy. Still, Christian values, sold as "family" values, turn up monthly in legal debates. So the fringe extremists of Christianity are now the minority, but politically they still hold clout because their values are held at some level by millions of voting Christians. It was mainly Christian values that had blacks at the backs of buses regionally and unable to vote nationally in the US only 50 years ago. And it was mainly white Christians on the news bits endorsing a war in the Middle East in response to 9/11 before a target was even named. The target is another colour and follows abother religion, so the war is easy to declare. Like it or not, that's just as easy a sell to Christians as it is to Muslims. In the 60s we had this threat called Communism. Now it's Terror. It's all just an excuse for a perpetual war run by a ficticious criminal mastermind, the International Communist Terrorist conspiracy.

And I still say I know Jews and Muslims and none of them are warmongers.

[Snake Logan]

Muslims kill Christian soldiers because Christian soldiers are on their land.

Holy shit! The World Trade Centre is Muslim territory? Is Madrid and London also Muslim territory? When did this happen?

It was mainly Christian values that had blacks at the backs of buses regionally and unable to vote nationally in the US only 50 years ago.

Don’t blame Christians for the actions of Americans. I think you will find that during that time, blacks were allowed to vote in the UK, Germany, France and many other ‘Christian’ places/countries. Most anywhere that wasn’t America or Southern Africa, blacks and other minorities had rights.

And I still say I know Jews and Muslims and none of them are warmongers.

Because those Jews and Muslims you have talked to are westernized.

This post has been edited by Snake Logan: 22 January 2008 - 11:36 PM

[Casual]

The UK is about as secular as it gets these days hardly anyone actually goes to church and that’s a good thing. If I lived in America I would be terrified, the idea of the government making policy based on or modelled around religious teachings is something I find abhorrent. If significant numbers of people in the UK started arguing for creationism to be taught in schools as fact (or at all) me and many others would really fight against it. I think the world be a better place if all states kept government and the church firmly separate and didn’t allow them anywhere near seats of power.

[civilian_number_two]

Don’t blame Christians for the actions of Americans. I think you will find that during that time, blacks were allowed to vote in the UK, Germany, France and many other ‘Christian’ places/countries. Most anywhere that wasn’t America or Southern Africa, blacks and other minorities had rights.

Well if that's the case then you can't blame Muslims for the actions of some Egyptians who flew a couple of planes into the WTC. Thank you for saying that, because a lot of people seem to think that Muslims have some sort of terrorist hive mind. Of course, if what you meant was that when Christians pray they are Christians, but when they lynch niggers they're Americans, then you have what we call a selective or double standard.

You missed or ignored my main point of course which was that it was Christian values and the hegemony of a Christian Western World that created the scenario that was the American South. It was the "White Man's Burden" that fueled the slave trade, and that along with the American notion of "Manifest Destiny" were Christian arguments. Regardless of the status of blacks in other countries (and at about the time I was talking about, blacks had just gotten over being largely persecuted by the Nazi government and police of one of those countries you mentioned. Guess which one?), the status of Blacks in the US was a carryover from the days of Slavery and the Civil War, a war where both sides marched to hymns praising God. Where you get that "blacks and other minorities" have always had it great "most anywhere" in the world apart from the US I don't know. So how about I won't say that racism is a Christian problem if you don't try to claim it's an exclusively American problem, ok?

There's nowhere to go with your idea that my Jewish and Muslim friends have been "Westernized." Is "Western" the term you use to mean those things you don't take exception to, and "foreign" is everything else? One gal I was referring to grew up in Syria and has relatives she regularly visits in Saudi Arabia. She's well read and like movies, and she speaks English with some accent, but she doesn't eat hamburgers or worship Jesus (a Middle Eastern deity). Do you mean she's "Western" because she doesn't fit a stereotype you hold of the radical terrorist? Or do simply mean that moderation in religious ritual and worship is unique to the West? I'm confused, but my first guess is you should travel more.

[civilian_number_two]

The UK is about as secular as it gets these days hardly anyone actually goes to church and that’s a good thing. If I lived in America I would be terrified, the idea of the government making policy based on or modelled around religious teachings is something I find abhorrent. If significant numbers of people in the UK started arguing for creationism to be taught in schools as fact (or at all) me and many others would really fight against it. I think the world be a better place if all states kept government and the church firmly separate and didn’t allow them anywhere near seats of power.

You should get to work.