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Why the prequels failed. Larger-scale reasons...

#1 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 01 May 2004 - 10:33 AM

Why did the Star Wars prequels suck?

Answering this question would be a very time-consuming task indeed. You've got the list of Chefelf's reasons for each movie and a whole lot of others. You have Jar Jar Binks, terrible dialogue, stupid plots, Kung Fu Yoda (a.k.a Sonic the Hedgehog with a lightsaber), stupid names like "Count Dookoo", Anakin the Jerk...

The list is very, very long. In this post, however, I'd like to discuss two larger reasons why these movies did not work. I will try to be brief but you all know how I go on sometimes, so I will make no promises. Anyway, here goes...

REASON ONE: The complete lack of consistency with the Original Trilogy.

The original Star Wars trilogy had a certain look to it and a certain feel to it so that when you saw even a few seconds from one of the movies, you knew what you were looking at - meaning, you knew you were watching Star Wars.

The technology in this galaxy was pretty rustic. The ships had jagged lines. A lot of them looked pretty old and oily.

The people in these movies all had a down-to-earth familiar quality to them. They were scruffy. They did not wear the coolest clothes. The good guys generally spoke in a fairly informal manner and it was really only the bad guys who spoke in cultured accents. Most of the good guys also had bad 1970s scruffy hair-cuts. Why am I bothering mentioning something as trivial as hair cuts, you may wonder. I'm mentioning it because it too is a part of the overall look and feel of those movies.

The prequels are completely inconsistent with the look and feel of the original movies. We get strange new technology with smooth, streamlined ships.

We get everyone wearing new, clean clothes - in fact EVERYTHING looks new and sparkling clean in these movies, even the computer generated desert.

Jedi apprentices are now called Padawans and they have stupid crew-cuts with braided rat-tails. All the good guys now talk in an emotionless, stunted manner and there's no down-to-earth feel about these guys either. Obi Wan becomes a stiff and Anakin becomes a dodgy sleaze and a total asshole.

Every alien is now CGI and we are not seeing many aliens of species that we saw in the old movies. Now we get Gungans and mutated mosquitoes (Watto) and strange four-armed critters who work in diners - and diners instead of weird cantinas.

These movies do not look like Star Wars. Nor do they sound like Star Wars or feel like Star Wars. Some people say that the musis for these movies is good though - but I'd argue that, while it is good, it is nowhere near the standard of the music in the original trilogy. If Duel of the Fates is so good, why can I not remember it? I cannot even recall John Williams' new take on the Imperial March at the end of Attack of the Clones. I'm not criticising the music here. I believe John Williams would have had a hard time doing the music for these movies because he had such uninspirational material to work with.

The point I am trying to make is that these movies do not in any way feel like Star Wars. If I did not know better and tuned in to these movies on television, I would rather confused.

Seeing the start of The Phantom Menace, with no soundtrack and smooth silver polished ships, I would think I was watching Star Trek for at least a few minutes there.

Seeing some of the space fights in these movies, I would think I was watching Starship Troopers.

And seeing that stupid scene where Obi Wan and Anakin were chasing the changeling in their air speeders all over Coruscant, I would think I was watching The Fifth Element.

I believe that Lucas allowed himself to stray too far to make these movies look the way he wanted them to. I realise that he wants to make everything as cool as he can, according to his own personal tastes. But if he knew anything about film-making, he should have known that he also needs to maintain a look and a tone that is consistent with the original movies.

Because he did not do this, it is very very difficult to pretend you are watching Star Wars movies when you see these things.


REASON TWO: Nothing means anything in these new movies.

When we think of climactic scenes in the original trilogy, what makes them so powerful? Is it because the dialogue is so great? Is it because visually they are so amazing?

I would like to argue that while these things are important, they are not what makes these scenes. For me, what makes these scenes are the other things in the movie that build up and are finally played out in these scenes.

Luke's run down the Death Star trench in Star Wars is fantastic. But while everything is done beautifully in that scene, I believe it would not seem that good if one just watched it by itself without seeing the movie up to that point.

This scene is the culmination of a large story-arc. The Death Star is a very serious threat. We have seen it destroy a whole planet and we know that if Luke fails, it will destroy the rebellion. The fact that Luke is being pursued by Darth Vader is so much more potent when we realise who Darth Vader is and all the terrible things he's done. Luke's victory through using the force is beautiful after seeing him learn about it from the beginning of the story under Obi Wan - and that after losing his mentor physically, he is still with him.

Again, in The Empire Strikes Back, the scene where Darth Vader reveals that he is Luke's father is very potent because we have spent the better part of two hours watching as Darth Vader used the entire Imperial Fleet and wreaked havoc on the lives on many people - not just the main characters, but the large numbers of people living on Bespin - so he could have this one-on-one confrontation with Luke.

As with the previous example, watching this out of context would not be nearly as powerful.

So what do we get with the prequels?

Nothing. None of the big scenes mean anything. When Anakin blows up the droid ship, it is just another excuse for a big explosion. We've never seen it before. We don't know what it is and as a result, we don't care.

The fight with Darth Maul was a well choreographed fight but it didn't do anything from me except provide a much welcomed visual distraction from the other annoying scenes that were going on at the same time. And it was because I didn't know much about Darth Maul. He didn't say much - I thought he said nothing but someone told me that he did have a line at some point. And I don't think the little scuffle in the desert really made the fight with Obi Wan and Qui Gon have any sort of personal show-down quality to it.

And the big battle between the Gungans and the droid army? Why would we care about that? We have seen nothing to suggest that the Trade Federation is a threat to be taken seriously. It's leaders were introduced to us in the first scene as comical and incompetent and every time we've seen any of those army droids, they have just been help-desk droids. At no point during that battle are we worried that the droid army would kill all the Gungans (I was just worried that they wouldn't).

And what about the mess at the end of Attack of the Clones? A big show-down between lots of poorly introduced, badly developed characters that we don't really know much about, with the good guys having a huge advantage with the clone troopers. I generally find that battles are a bit more tense if the bad guys have the advantage but anyway...

Was this battle the culmination of the story? Was everything in the movie inevitably leading up to this?

No. This was just a spur of the moment thing. Yoda and the gang decided they'd rescue Obi Wan and check out whatever was going on at this planet (can't remember the name - like a lot of pther things in these stupid films) and for some reason, we find the Trade Federation has heaps of ships outside in this location we've never seen before. What were they all doing there? Who were all these people involved? I didn't know and I didn't care. I was just waiting for the damn film to be over so they'd put the lights back on and I could safely navigate my way up the stairs to the exit.

As a side note - I don't know why but I never walk out of movies at the cinema. But after a few experiences like the prequels, I'm beginning to think I should.

And to return to the problem, there is no build up to the climax in the each of these films. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that there were no climaxes in these movies because there was no overall story that I could discern - just a poorly presented series of random plot-lines with lots of pointless and annoying things being done. And then at the end of it, George Lucas tries to bring all of these things together for some big spectacular ending.

And so far, the big spectacular endings (like the whole movies) have just been meaningless filler, laden with annoying CGI effects and stupidity.

Nothing in these movies mean anything. And when we combine this with the fact that there is not a single sympathetic character in these movies, except maybe Artoo Detoo, this makes it very difficult to care about what happens.

And I've probably said this many times but how can anyone sit through a movie when they don't care about what happens in it?

Okay, I will leave the post open to you guys.

Told you I would be brief... wink.gif
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#2 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 01 May 2004 - 11:52 AM

Ok, I'm actually going to disagree with you just a bit with your first reason, though I agree completely with your 2nd. First of all, I still stand by this, the music is better than the OT music. It is more complex, it is cleaner, and it still retains the grandeur of the OT (not to mention some beautifully incorporated themes). You don't remember Duel of the Fates because the movie it was in was crap. If Duel of the Fates was used in a climactic battle in a good movie, trust me, you would have remembered it. Just don't tie in the quality of the music with the quality of the movies, because this is fabulous music.

Now, onto my second, and larger disagreement, about the look of the films. I have to say, that's not the problem. These films were SUPPOSED to look beautiful, they were supposed to look grand, because they wanted to show the great civilization under the Old Republic that Obi-Wan alluded to in ANH (in this case, the line a more elegant weapon, for a more civilized age is something that could have been and rightly was translated into the setting for the prequels). Their technology wasn't necessarily more advanced than the OT (after all, they didn't have a superlaser yet, and the ships were far inferior to X-Wings), it was just cleaner, because it was more civilized. Yeah, the ship looks almost a bit TOO clean, it would wear down a little, but I completely understand with what Lucas was doing in this instance and have to agree with him. Even the haircuts would be different, because this was a different time, a different age (and notice that young Anakin has a pretty similar haircut to Luke in ANH). The look of these films is not the problem. The story, script, and character development are, but not the look. The look is the one thing in these movies that one could say does have a purpose. This is showing civility, grandeur, and beauty, while the OT shows a much more warlike, "screw beauty and put some damn guns on the ship we're in the midst of a civil war here" mentality.
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Posted 01 May 2004 - 02:59 PM

bup bup bud-da-dup! bup bup bud-da-dup! do dee do, dee do, dee doodle-ooh; do dee do, dee do, dee doodle-ooh. bup bup bud-da-dup! bup bup bud-da-dup!

I remember that tune. but then again I watched the closing credits. I'm sure few stuck it out till the end.

that being said, a buddy told me he'd heard an early review for TPM. and I agree entirely. he said the movie lacked "heart."
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Posted 01 May 2004 - 06:28 PM

OK OK OK OK. WE ALL GET IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


THE PREQUELS SUCKED!!!!

How many more times must you people go over this! You keep saying the samething over and over.

Ok they failed! Ok they sucked! ok The actors, writers, CGI, everything just did not workout at all.

I've been back and forth here reading the posts, they all say the same damn fucking thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The movies were shit on every level.

Why not start ragging on something else now. HOw about the decline of BOND, or don't even rip apart series, rip apart single movies.
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Posted 01 May 2004 - 08:31 PM

Because, NEWBIE, this is FUN.

And you've got a real problem with repeatedly bashing the prequels for fun, then may I kindly suggest that you have come to the wrong website.



To Vwing, sorry about the music. I didn't mean that the music was bad. I just felt that it wasn't as good as the original trilogy's music. And your point is probably true that had it been in a good movie, I would have remembered it well.

I also get what you mean about why George Lucas was changing the look and I can live with that at least at the concept level. But the movies really look too different. And they feel too different as well.

If I could make an analogy - imagine if somebody made a film of The Hobbit but it wasn't Peter Jackson, it didn't have any of the same actors from his Lord of the Rings trilogy and it wasn't a New Line film. Now it could be an excellent movie but it would be difficult to watch it as part of the larger series of films because even if you enjoyed it, you would have a hard time trying to pretend that this is the precursor to Peter Jackson's film trilogy.

Okay - it's a mess of an example and not really clearly explained but hopefully you'll understand what I'm trying to say.

If the movie looks and feels too different, then it's hard to accept it as part of the larger series.

Who here remembers the Neverending Story II when you were younger? Could anyone actually convince themselves that with these different actors, and a completely different feel, that it was a continuation of the first movie? I couldn't.
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#6 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 01 May 2004 - 09:12 PM

I do understand what you're saying, and yeah, I guess even within that concept, he could have made it more similar. I believe he will do that in Episode III (he probably paid more attention to making it look like Episode IV more than he did the script), but he probably should have added a few more Star Warsy elements into it. Oh and I've never seen Neverending Story II for 2 reasons: I wasn't that entranced with the first one too much because I saw it when I was a bit older than I should have been while watching that type of movie, and I had also heard the second one wasn't good.

And Newbie, this is the Star Wars part of the board, which is why we discuss it here. If you want to discuss Bond, go to the Movie Theater board, that's why it's there.

This post has been edited by Vwing: 01 May 2004 - 09:14 PM

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 03:38 AM

Thanks Vwing. Oh, and it's a pity you were too old when you first saw The Neverending Story. It really is a children's movie and it's not really something I could watch now. There are some children's movies that you can enjoy as an adult but I don't think this is one of them. However, seen at the right age, it was a really interesting movie.

QUOTE
I had also heard the second one wasn't good.


You heard quite rightly. I wish I had been similarly warned.

Actually the children I feel sorry for are the ones who are getting their 'first taste of Star Wars' through the prequels. When they're old enough to see reason, these kids are going to be put off Star Wars for life - and they'll never enjoy the original movies.
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Posted 02 May 2004 - 11:12 AM

yeah, it's been said before in other ways.

I'm incredulous regarding the gushers on sw boards, and despondent on the future integrity of SW fandom en masse.
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#9 User is offline   Supes Icon

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 05:20 AM

QUOTE (NEWBIE @ May 1 2004, 06:28 PM)
The movies were shit on every level.

Why not start ragging on something else now. HOw about the decline of BOND, or don't even rip apart series, rip apart single movies.

How about you start some of these discussions in the Movies Section and we'll do just that. They are pretty clearly marked out. You want to bitch and moan about Star Wars Prequels you come to this part of the forum. You want to talk about other films you head to the other part of the forum. Sure you get some cross over, but on the whole it's still a fairly simple concept.

So as I said, start up your discussion and I'm sure you'll have a bunch of willing participants. In case you hadn't noticed there are quite a few movie critics associated with this forum.
Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
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#10 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 07:42 AM

how about this?

a friend of mine brought this up, and gay one at that... "the lack of han solo!"

now, he didn't mean some child version or the same character (for those stupid enough to take that literally), but a cool, ruged, tough guy, with no interest in the mystical side of things...

I often get the impression that Lucas didn't like the Idea of Solo, but he was popular and didn't have a choice but to keep him in...

I have to say i agree with this point the only macho character so far has been Jenga and a non-macho kiddy version of Bobba. it's just not enough, that's not even mexico!!!
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#11 User is offline   Esco Icon

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 08:25 AM

JYAMG,

I was right at that age when I saw Neverending story. I loved it completely.
Then me and my mini entourage went to see part II, and man what a let down.
The feel, the actors, the plot, all sucked big time.
Oddly enough, I can still sit through the original Neverending story and enjoy it
at age 25!
So yeah, its a good analogy.
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Posted 03 May 2004 - 09:04 AM

To Barend, I agree completely about the lack of a Han Solo type figure. Come to think of it, there is virtually no-one in these movies (with the exception of Amidala and the droids) who isn't a Jedi. It's become all about the Jedi and there's virtually no-one else in it. I love the force and the Jedi side of Star Wars as much as anyone but I don't want them to take all the screen time.

Only having Jedi not only means that no character is allowed to have fun - but it has larger, further-reaching problems as well. Because the Jedi handle almost everything with a lightsaber, the prequels are very short on good blaster fights and epic space battles.

Just another reason why immediately after watching the prequels at the cinema, I felt the urge to rush home and put one of the original Star Wars movies in the video player ( it's like rinsing a bad taste out of your mouth with a glass of water).


And to Esco, I'm glad someone else on this forum can fondly remember watching the Neverending Story. From what you said, I think I'd like to watch it again sometime... see if I can recapture some of the magic. Maybe I can still enjoy it as I did all those years ago. Although I don't think it could ever be quite the same as when I saw it in the cinema as a little kid - as I literally hid under the seat every time G'mork appeared!

And I'm sorry to hear you saw Part II as well - I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I actually had to see it again later because a teacher made us watch it at school. And it doesn't get any better with repeat viewing.
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Posted 03 May 2004 - 09:38 AM

I wouldn't have minded following the Jedi around if they weren't practically Vulcans. My God, even Spock had some spark of humor (or humanity) to him. One Jedi isn't that much different from another, so they all come across like featureless brick walls. Poor Yoda's even had the color bled out of him, so to speak. So I can fully understand the need to see somebody--anybody--who didn't wear drab robes and swing a lightsaber for a living. It would have given us a moment to breathe, and we don't get many of those in these movies.
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#14 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 01:57 PM

QUOTE
To Barend, I agree completely about the lack of a Han Solo type figure. Come to think of it, there is virtually no-one in these movies (with the exception of Amidala and the droids) who isn't a Jedi. It's become all about the Jedi and there's virtually no-one else in it. I love the force and the Jedi side of Star Wars as much as anyone but I don't want them to take all the screen time.



There was one. Obi-Wan should have been the Han Solo to Anakin's Luke and Amidala's Leia. George lucas just didn't take advantage of that opportunity or that trio dynamic that made the OT so good.

The saddest part about the PT films is how "uncool" the Jedi have become. Even Alec Guinesses Obi-Wan had some flair and life to him. George lucas has turned the Jedi into a bunch of beauracratic, puritanical, oblivious know-it-alls. There is nothing special about the Jedis in the PT. In the OT the Jedis were about the coolest thing in the universe. Even when Han was skeptical of them, you know that Luke and Obi-Wan's beliefs were right and that the jedi Knights and the force were a powerful and essential. I mean look at the 'stupid concepts that Lucas has put into the Jedi Knight mythos:

1. Jedi's don't fall in love. Stupid. the Jedis are not Roman Catholic priests or Buddhists. I think even they would be advanced to see that such a rule is complete non-sense. I mean there whole race was revived because one Jedi did screw and procreate. I mean pro-creation has got to be the only way the Jedi's propogated,. You mean to telk me that all these jedis spontaneously. developed?

2. Midichlorians- Nuff said

3. Rainbow blades. There should only be three types of colors for lightsabers and they should be consistent. Blue for jedi, Red for Sith lord and luke is unique in that he has a green saber. None of this

4. Yoda and the clones. The Yoda of ESB and ROTJ would NEVER have led or supported a clone army. Yoda woul dsacrifice the lives of even his Jedi to avoid such an evil. Nor would Yoda even bother commanding any army. "Great warrior? Wars do not make one great"

5. Multi-special Jedis. I don't know about you guys but i kind of think the Jedi should be limited to humans and "Yoda's race". it get's to ridiculous and stupidl ooking to have Gotals and other races wielding the lightsabers.

6. Jedi's being dependent on technology. A jedi librarian, Juba and Jedi blood analysis, jedi radios and Jedi fighters. When the hjeck do Jedi need to be so reliant on technology to operate?

There are probably a list of others I can think of.
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#15 User is offline   Esco Icon

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 02:54 PM

Mike Mac,

your statements about the jedi being uncool and know-it-alls are precisely the
reasons why I believe that they will get wiped out. While the jedi started to become zealots, the Sith are working overtime and pulling out the rug from underneath them.
I actually like how that works out. Unfortunately, it sacrafices the whole idea of what a Jedi is in the OT.
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