[J m HofMarN]

I'm hoping for the whole "Dying in batle against some dictatorship" thing actually.

As for Obama's "racist" church, I like the pastor and agree with him on several points:

Whites do indeed dominate the government and there are still issues left over from the civil rights era needing redress (assassinated black leaders, cointelpro, imprisoned Panthers, etc)

God damn America? Hell yes.

His statement that we provoked 9/11? Good sense.

He's a fine man and I'm glad that our future president has people with him who are discontented with the way the country is, rather than just a bunch of happy yes men whose only problem with the direction of our nation stems from the fact that we haven't yet carpet bombed the entire third world.

[BigStupidDogFacedArse]

So you accept the idea of a racist, rock and roll church just as long as it's masochistic? Sigh, Hofmarn! You hemorrhage white male guilt my friend~ A few white male pastors have denounced America and called her the whore of Babylon, yet I know for a fact you'd never agree with these ghouls. Don’t play the liberal fiddle and find yourself accepting black Christian theology because they’re groovy with vibes, yo. It’s just as bigoted but in a different way. Not unlike the Nation of Islam, black liberation theology in Christianity is racist and rotten to the core.

1) Obama is good pals with Wright (Known him for 20 years.)

2) A couple years ago, J.Wright commented, on record mind you, that Obama would have to denounce him if he ever ran for higher office.

3) Sure enough, Obama denounces Wright and his church. Christopher Hitchens said it best when he compared the above scenario to the cock crowing in the garden of Gethsemane. The inevitable betrayal was well known in advance.

4) Obama remarks "this is not the man I knew 20 years ago". Is he trying to sell us the idea that he knew this man for 20 years, attended his shitty little congregation, and never once heard Wright rant on like we most recently witnessed? Bullshit. I think it's obvious to everyone that the denouncement was a ruse and that these two are still sheep and shepherd.

His statement that we provoked 9/11? Good sense.

How exactly did we provoke German born Arabs into flying planes into highly populated buildings? Highly educated men, not born in the lap of poverty, so please don't use that as an excuse.

[civilian_number_two]

We don't know who the men were who piloted the planes that flew into the towers on 9/11. So how you can say they were educated and all that is beyond me. And if you think they did it with no reason at all, or as part of some effort to take over the world, we've yet to see the product of that. Meanwhile the United States has had a poor history in the Arab world for some time. I include Clinton's foreign policy there too; the terrorism of 9/11, almost certainly Islamic, was a reaction to something. The American propaganda that it was part of a plan by an international terrorist conspiracy to destroy western freedom, that every US military effort in the Middle East has been defensive in nature, is asinine.

[Spoon Poetic]

I'm positive McCain is going to win. I'd bet my dog on it.

Doesn't matter who's the better candidate in real life. McCain will win it for a number of reasons:

He's not black
He's been campaigning against the dems for months while Obama and Clinton were still just focusing on each other
His name isn't Arab
He's white
He's more experienced
He's not African-American

I'm not saying these are my views, but the majority of America. They might not even admit it to themselves, but the majority of Americans are more comfortable with a person such as McCain than a person such as Obama. (And I do know others who WILL admit it - "I like everything about Obama; I like his policies, his rhetoric, everything - there's just something about him I don't like, but I can't put their finger on what it is... So I will have to vote McCain.")



As far as my own opinion goes, well, I don't think I'll be voting. I used to like Obama but have since learned more. Besides, no one thinks like me, anyway... Half my opinions (most of the economical and states' rights ones) are repbublican, and half are democratic (most of the social and environmental issues).

So I don't like McCain or Obama but honestly I think they are better than most of the candidates they beat out.

[Deucaon]

Whites do indeed dominate the government

When 90% of Americans are white, what do you expect? Women have more claim to govern then racial minorities but then again its who the people vote for that get to govern and not those who are part of some minority group.

We don't know who the men were who piloted the planes that flew into the towers on 9/11. So how you can say they were educated and all that is beyond me.

They were educated enough to fly a jumbo jet.

[civilian_number_two]

We know that at least one of them was qualified to steer a jet that was already in the air.

[Jordan]

We don't know who the men were who piloted the planes that flew into the towers on 9/11. So how you can say they were educated and all that is beyond me.

Fifteen of the attackers were from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt, and one from Lebanon.[76] In sharp contrast to the standard profile of suicide bombers, the hijackers were well-educated, mature adults, whose belief systems were fully formed.[77]

Within hours of the attacks, the FBI was able to determine the names and in many cases the personal details of the suspected pilots and hijackers.[78][79] Mohamed Atta's luggage, which did not make the connection from his Portland flight onto Flight 11, contained papers that revealed the identity of all 19 hijackers, and other important clues about their plans, motives, and backgrounds.[80] On the day of the attacks, the National Security Agency intercepted communications that pointed to Osama bin Laden, as did German intelligence agencies.[

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Mohamed_Atta there's a wikipage to one of the guys.

http://www.usatoday....8-germany_x.htm Germany cracking down on their islamic terror op who aided the 9/11 hijackers.

He's right, we do know the Hijackers were educated. THey're weren't BORN in germany, but they lived their for many years and is where they made their terror cell.

I want Obama to win just to see history being made, and I'm interseted in how the black community will be reinjuvinated. I don't think McCain will win, he's running on an unpopular platform, he's old, and he's the same old. SO ya, Obama will win. ALTHOUGH, this could be the first year an independent takes in a lot of votes.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 24 June 2008 - 01:33 AM

[Deucaon]

We know that at least one of them was qualified to steer a jet that was already in the air.

Do actually you know anything about the 9/11 attacks or are you throwing around wild ideas and hoping they are factual?

[civilian_number_two]

Do actually you know anything about the 9/11 attacks or are you throwing around wild ideas and hoping they are factual?

Sorry, Deuc. I meant to say we know at least TWO of them were able to steer jets that were already in the air.

Reminds me of this joke about these mathematicians who were on a train in Scotland. One of them looks out the window and notices a black sheep.

"Hey," he says to the others. "They have black sheep in Scotland."

Another fellow replies "Well, we can only be certain that there is at least one black sheep in Scotland."

A third joins in. "Not so. What we know is that there is at least one sheep in Scotland that is black on at least one side."

------

All we know for sure is that two planes were put in the air by licensed pilots and that those same planes were crashed into buildings, most likely be people who were not the licensed pilots. One hijacker/pilot per plane is the absoilute minimum needed to do that, so that's what we know.

I am not convinced that the FBI knows the identities of all of the terrorists as it claims. Those could easily have been forged identities, and the conveniently misplaced luggage could have been planted to throw off the real identity or - worse - created by the FBI themselves. The fact is, everyone on those planes died. I am not a fan of all the crazy conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11, but I will say this: The FBI doesn't jave an amazing record when it comes down to cracking international terrorist conspiracies, so I am skeptical that this one was so easily solved, and within hours of it happening.

Anyway, I don't know that the education level of the hikackers would mean that the terrorism was not a reaction to US foreign policy. I am not sure that's how it works: do only poor and uneducated peopole react violently to US foreign policy? Can't educated folks do that as well? What about Tim McVeigh and the Unabomber? I am sorta wondering where BDSFA was going with that one.

[Deucaon]

Sorry, Deuc. I meant to say we know at least TWO of them were able to steer jets that were already in the air.

Reminds me of this joke about these mathematicians who were on a train in Scotland. One of them looks out the window and notices a black sheep.

"Hey," he says to the others. "They have black sheep in Scotland."

Another fellow replies "Well, we can only be certain that there is at least one black sheep in Scotland."

A third joins in. "Not so. What we know is that there is at least one sheep in Scotland that is black on at least one side."

------

All we know for sure is that two planes were put in the air by licensed pilots and that those same planes were crashed into buildings, most likely be people who were not the licensed pilots. One hijacker/pilot per plane is the absoilute minimum needed to do that, so that's what we know.

I am not convinced that the FBI knows the identities of all of the terrorists as it claims. Those could easily have been forged identities, and the conveniently misplaced luggage could have been planted to throw off the real identity or - worse - created by the FBI themselves. The fact is, everyone on those planes died. I am not a fan of all the crazy conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11, but I will say this: The FBI doesn't jave an amazing record when it comes down to cracking international terrorist conspiracies, so I am skeptical that this one was so easily solved, and within hours of it happening.

3 planes hit into 3 buildings causing two of them to collapse and causing minor damage to the last. 1 plane crashed because the passengers revolted but if it hadn't then it would have probably followed the fate of the other 3. This is undeniable as there are hundreds of people who phoned their loved ones and the police when their planes were hijacked. Now correct me if I'm wrong but that's 4 pilots (perhaps even more co pilots) and an unknown number of people (who obtained American visas) who had to guard the cockpit from over 300 passengers.

Anyway, I don't know that the education level of the hikackers would mean that the terrorism was not a reaction to US foreign policy. I am not sure that's how it works: do only poor and uneducated peopole react violently to US foreign policy? Can't educated folks do that as well? What about Tim McVeigh and the Unabomber? I am sorta wondering where BDSFA was going with that one.

Piloting a jumbo jet isn't all hunky dory. You need 6-12 months training before an airline would even consider hiring you and that's only after intensive physical and mental tests.

And I think you are confusing "educated" with "knowledgeable in geopolitics."

[J m HofMarN]

So you accept the idea of a racist, rock and roll church just as long as it's masochistic? Sigh, Hofmarn! You hemorrhage white male guilt my friend~ A few white male pastors have denounced America and called her the whore of Babylon, yet I know for a fact you'd never agree with these ghouls. Don’t play the liberal fiddle and find yourself accepting black Christian theology because they’re groovy with vibes, yo. It’s just as bigoted but in a different way. Not unlike the Nation of Islam, black liberation theology in Christianity is racist and rotten to the core.

Ok, first of all, the tactic of calling any black leader who asks for something in terms that do not resemble Gentleman Jim, calling people like that a black racist, that's bullshit. Black people have gotten the short end of the stick for a good chunk of American history, and lots of good organizations, the BPP and the NoI for example, have tried to do something about that for themselves rather than begging the rulers for concessions. This does not make them racists. Calling them such is a common reactionary tactic.

Second, a rock and roll church sounds awesome.

1) Obama is good pals with Wright (Known him for 20 years.)

I already said this was a good thing.

2) A couple years ago, J.Wright commented, on record mind you, that Obama would have to denounce him if he ever ran for higher office.

Name a president who hasn't had weird friends. Did you know that Mrs. Carter met with John Wayne Gacy? That Bush got ass loads of money from the Bin Ladens? That Reagan liked to kill hippies for sport? That's just off the top of my head. Presidents are people too, and they're all going to have a few inconvenient people. Wright just happens to be an inconvenient person with the right ideas.

3) Sure enough, Obama denounces Wright and his church. Christopher Hitchens said it best when he compared the above scenario to the cock crowing in the garden of Gethsemane. The inevitable betrayal was well known in advance.

... I don't see why you're trying to convince me that this is a problem. I understand Obama had to denounce Wright to win. But for me Wrights ideas are refreshing and I don't see why alternative ideas are so repugnant.

4) Obama remarks "this is not the man I knew 20 years ago". Is he trying to sell us the idea that he knew this man for 20 years, attended his shitty little congregation, and never once heard Wright rant on like we most recently witnessed? Bullshit. I think it's obvious to everyone that the denouncement was a ruse and that these two are still sheep and shepherd.

Yes, it is possible, For thos twenty years, half of it was Clinton era. We weren't the same country we are now. I wasnt politically involved at the time either. Bush's policies have radicalized a lot of people. It's like going from Roosevelt to Nixon and saying that someone who was radical under Nixon must have been the same under Roosevelt.

How exactly did we provoke German born Arabs into flying planes into highly populated buildings? Highly educated men, not born in the lap of poverty, so please don't use that as an excuse.

Highly populated buildings? That's the best you can come up with? Alright, I will entertain for the moment that the two towers were highly populated. The pentagon was a legitimate military target so we'll leave that one out. You want to know how we fucking provoked Arabs into flying planes into our buildings? Let me ask you this:

How did Panama provoke us into firebombing their ghettoes, kidnapping their president, and installing a puppet government?
How did Guatemala provoke us into organizing a military coup and killing the country's leftists?
How did Lebanon provoke us to send troops to occupy their country?
How did Palestine provoke us to send billions to the Zionist Entity which they then used to finance blatant genocide?
How in the fuck did Iraq provoke us into invading them a second time?

You ask for provocation, sir? I say the US does not need provocation, but we have given ample amounts of it to the freedom fighters of the world.

They were educated enough to fly a jumbo jet.

Do actually you know anything about the 9/11 attacks or are you throwing around wild ideas and hoping they are factual?

[Yoda]Mmmmm know much about the 9/11 attacks Civ does, use the force to find out he did. Where actually did you learn the grammar young Padawan?[/Yoda]

Piloting a jumbo jet isn't all hunky dory. You need 6-12 months training before an airline would even consider hiring you and that's only after intensive physical and mental tests.

Maybe that's what provoked them, the airline turned down their applications because they didnt have enough training.

But I think you're wrong here. It takes a lot of training to take off and land an air plane and keep everyone on board alive. But how much training do you need to grab a plane's steering wheel and point it towards a big pointy building? That seems to be exactly the kind of thing that proper training would have prevented.

And I think you are confusing "educated" with "knowledgeable in geopolitics."

Educated implies that one is knowledgable. Now to the reason for the whole education sillyness. Some people prefer to think of Islamic radicals as uneducated backwoods arabic speaking rednecks who live in caves. In fact Bin Laden was quite wealthy and priviledged until he chose Jyhad, and Zawahiri is indeed a doctorate. A lot of their followers in the West are college educated. For one thing it is perfectly plausible for intelligent people to violently oppose US policy. For another, people with college degrees are more likely to be able to infiltrate Western societies with greater ease.

And a final comment, every time anyone here mentions that 9/11 could have been in some way provoked, som smacktard goes batshit. Why? It reminds me of a Dana Carvey sketch wherein he says that he does not believe in the sudden conspiracy theory about OJ, and then goes on to parody several world leaders calling eachother: "Framing OJ, you in?" 'Well I really liked those Naked Gun movies, but you're right it is just too good!"

Is this the chain of events you believe led up to 9/11? That, with no motivation or justification, 19 men got together and decided to kill themselves and thousands of others in a firey ball of death, completely at random and for no reason? How did that call go?

"Hey, you want to drive a plane into a building?" "Well, I was planning on, ya know, living, but sure that sounds fun, and I sure do hate me some freedom! Where can I buy my ticket?"

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 24 June 2008 - 01:24 PM

[civilian_number_two]

Piloting a jumbo jet isn't all hunky dory. You need 6-12 months training before an airline would even consider hiring you and that's only after intensive physical and mental tests.

And I think you are confusing "educated" with "knowledgeable in geopolitics."

I could fly a jumbo jet that was already in the air into a building, assuming I was desperate enough to think that was a good idea. I could learn to keep it in the air by training on a flight simulator. If you disagree that would be enough, fine. I needn't however train in the United States, which is the bottom line of the official story. There are places all over the world that train pilots. Anyway, that's got nothing to do with "education" as you say.

I don't personally believe the story of Flight 93 by the way, or the story of the plane hitting the Pentagon. I am old enough to have concluded that when I can'ty see it for myself (even if it's only television), if the government seals all inquiry and confiscates all evidence with no scheduled declaration of findings, that there's more than we're being told. And by "more," I mean "something else." So when folks talk about 9/11, I am only talking about New York.

I didn't start the education thing; that was BSDFA. Maybe we should leave it to him to let us know why.

[Spoon Poetic]

You mean there's a conspiracy theory about that, too? I had no idea people actually refute that a plane crashed into a Pentagon.

I'm friends with an eyewitness, and I saw footage of the building after it happened on 9/11 along with the footage of the towers. There are airplane pieces strewn about in all the pictures, and lots of eyewitnesses. So I'm kinda lost as to why people would think a plane didn't hit the Pentagon? I've just never even heard that one, even though I have heard all the theories about how it was the U.S. gov't that set up all the planes flying into everywhere.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 24 June 2008 - 03:38 PM

[civilian_number_two]

I'm not a conspiracy nut, Spoon. But on the day, the news wasn't showing anything at the Pentagon apart from some distant helicopter shots. Noone was allowed anywhere near the place. And afterwards, everything was classified. The Pentagon could have been hit by a meteor, or not hit at all, for all I know. And yeah, there are a number of conspiracy theories about how no plane ever crashed into the Pentagon, that a separate incident was created to amplify the public reaction. These are probably crazy talk, but I remain skeptical as a result of having been left in the dark. If the powers that be want to dissuade folks from skepticism, all they need to do is to be less secretive. After all, what could they have to lose? If a plane had crashed as part of a terrorist conspiracy, what national defense secret might be revealed by seeing the damn thing? It's only if the truth differed from the story that there would be anything worth concealing.

I know, there were thousands of witnesses to whatever happened; there would have to be. It's just I am not one of them. Once everything about a thing is classified, and there is only one channel through which to garner information, I become skeptical of official stories. After all, before Tim McVeigh was uncovered, President Clinton was certain the culprit behind Oklahoma was commanded by Osama bin Laden.

[Deucaon]

I could fly a jumbo jet that was already in the air into a building, assuming I was desperate enough to think that was a good idea. I could learn to keep it in the air by training on a flight simulator. If you disagree that would be enough, fine. I needn't however train in the United States, which is the bottom line of the official story. There are places all over the world that train pilots. Anyway, that's got nothing to do with "education" as you say.

The official line is that a handful of guys who obtained Americans visas were able to control and pilot 3 planes into 3 buildings and unable to control the last one. What exactly is hard to believe about that?

I don't personally believe the story of Flight 93 by the way, or the story of the plane hitting the Pentagon. I am old enough to have concluded that when I can'ty see it for myself (even if it's only television), if the government seals all inquiry and confiscates all evidence with no scheduled declaration of findings, that there's more than we're being told. And by "more," I mean "something else." So when folks talk about 9/11, I am only talking about New York.

I am distrustful of the American government as the next person (like them saying we are in Afghanistan to find/kill Osama and we end up building mosques and hospitals there) but... well look...



The September 11th Attack on the Pentagon.

All 58 passengers, four flight attendants, and both pilots on board, as well as 125 occupants of the Pentagon, died. Although the blast from the plane and the toxic gas and heat from the resulting fire killed some people in their offices near the crash site, some people working inside the Pentagon that morning did not know that a plane had hit their building. Military and civilian personnel running up and down the corridors yelling for people to get out helped to save a lot of lives. It was estimated that there were close to 2,600 people working in the Pentagon near the impact site. The fact that so many people were able to survive speaks well to the design of Pentagon. Indeed, the building received many upgrades following the Oklahoma City bombing to protect it from similar terrorist attacks. For instance, a recently completed $258 million renovation to the west wing included Kevlar-reinforced windows. Despite the impact of the plane and the fires, the damaged area did not collapse for 30 minutes, and the windows just next to the impact site remained intact, as shown below.

I didn't start the education thing; that was BSDFA. Maybe we should leave it to him to let us know why.

OK.