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gothic subculture 101

#1 User is offline   princesskadee Icon

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 02:45 AM

It seems that the gothic subculture that seems to be ever so permeated into american society is becoming increasingly more ambient.

I myself am not "goth", I never was, dont intend to be,.but on the same token, im not necessarily bashing it either.

I am, however, finding myself ever the more curious about why it has gained momentum in popularity.

Ill be honest, Im not even sure if I know what constitutues "goth". I do know that I went to high school with kids who wore Doc Marten shoes, wore metal chains that were attached to the wallet, wore dog collars around their necks, had hair dyed black and streaked with loud colors like lime green or hot pink,.wore black lipstick,.eyeliner,.and had more piercings in the face than my brother has hooks in his fishing tackle box.

This goth look,.this image,.lifestyle..is embraced by both guys and girls alike. I dont quit understand it.

First off,.I dont know what bands are goth, and which arent. Is death metal a sort of branch of goth? Nu metal? is there a such thing as a goth music genre? when i go to sam goody to buy cds,.i dont recall seeing any section in the store specifically labeled as "Goth".

then theres that whole death metal scene..where every lead singer of every band sounds like darth vader with laryngitis.

I did some research to try to ascertain what the founding roots of goth were..and believe it or not..it lists "The Doors",..yes,.Jim Morrison would turn in his grave if he knew.

The music is one thing,..but then the clothes..and makeup? what causes someone to want to dress this way? did they come from an abusive childhood? do they have low self-esteem?

I know that from being a girl and all,.that theres a lot of pressure on us girls to always be as pretty as possible,.and im guessing that if a girl finds herself short of these goals..she turns to this goth lifestyle as a sort of outlet from it. a way for her to find others that share common interests...bonding,.if you will

...and im sure the same holds true for guys as well.

i havent even touched upon "emo"...is that a form of goth too? what got the whole emo thing started?

dammit..why cant everyone just look and dress normal? why? why?..why do people insisnt on dressing up like every damn day is halloween?

i know some people who listen to Insane Clown Posse...now, i dont necessarily think of goth when i think of this band, but rather a bunch of wild white boys that don cosmetics and rap. but, surprisingly, this band is heavily embraced by the goth subculture. their fans are called "Juggalos",.and "juggalettes". ,.and some of the content of their lyrics are quite disturbing as they recite lyrics that pursuade engaging in taboo things such as hedonism, nihilism, etc.

..and whats so big about drinking faygo anyways...its not even alcoholic.

and then theres the whole vampire thing..people think that they are vampires. its really dumb. i guess thats a goth thing too,i dont know.

i look at this whole dilemma the same way i look at white people who try to act black and hang out with blacks, and talk ebonics, etc. ,..its like they found themselves unable to fit in with other whites,.so they went with the black crowd.

and dont take this like im being racial or anything, cause im not. just using this as an analogy.

but the point im trying to convey is that, its like some people find themselves so depressed about many a thing in life...trying to fit in,.try to be the best they can be..and when they fall short of such goals,.they tend to become delinquent and mischievous..i assume?
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#2 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 03:29 AM

Jim Morrisson has as much in common with goth as Perry Como and reggae.

Goth isn't really a musical style; it's an image and mostly a hairstyle. A classic primer in the alleged musical roots of goth would be Bauhaus. But even that's not quite it.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 29 November 2007 - 03:30 AM

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 08:32 AM

I get mistaken for being “goth” all the time. I guess its cause I have black hair and a lip ring.

And sure, I’m pale, but I’m Irish for godssake, what do people expect?

And sure, half my wardrobe is black, but black is slimming AND it goes with everything!

I’ve only been to a goth club once in my entire life, and it was for a new years eve party (there was nothing else going on).

And yes, I loved Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines video game, but who didn’t? It was a great game!

And the only real “goth” music I own is Switchblade Symphony. I don’t think Dead Can Dance qualifies. I do have some Bauhaus, but… that’s not really “goth.” Is it?

Anyway, the moral of the story is, I live on a farm, in the middle of nowhere with my huskies and my cats (and my reptiles, but that’s beside the point). I play Zelda and listen to Enya. I’m sick to death of people thinking I’m “goth.”

I don’t really know how that relates to this thread, but I just felt like ranting.
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#4 User is offline   Heccubus Icon

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 10:06 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Nov 29 2007, 03:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Goth isn't really a musical style; it's an image and mostly a hairstyle. A classic primer in the alleged musical roots of goth would be Bauhaus. But even that's not quite it.

*ahem*

The term "gothic" was first used to describe music when it was used in reference to the Doors. That doesn't necessarily make them a "goth" band per se, but they definitely had some form of influence on the musical genre, as a whole. Morrisson's voice can be heard emanating from the vocal chords of about 90% of the bands associated with goth today, which I think clearly defines his influence on the genre.
Eventually post-punk acts with a darker, dramatic edge to them like Joy Division, Siouxsie And The Banshees, and Bauhaus hopped along and became generally referred to as "gothic rock", though I typically just associate them with the post-punk movement because "goth" is a stupid term to describe music. Other not-at-all-goth-but-still-influential musicians in that realm are T. Rex (see: black suits, top hat), David Bowie (androgyny) and the Damned.
Anyway, the term itself can refer to a vast array of music that's typically associated with the subculture. In the 70s, there were a lot of bands from the UK and Europe that were associated with the genre (The Virgin Prunes, Siouxsie Sioux, Joy Division, and Germany's Banshees, Xmal Deutschland for example) that don't sound a lot like what we'd typically think of if someone said "goth". But then, I think that's probably because most people who talk about, or call themselves "goth" have little to no fucking clue about where the culture or music came from. Like today's mainstream punk movement. None of these kids have any clue who Marc Bolan is, or know that if it weren't for him they probably wouldn't be wearing a top hat and carrying a cane, just like how your typical Blink 182 fan has no idea who Joe Strummer was. Bands like Killing Joke also played a role in shaping what we would typically refer to as "goth" today, though I wouldn't necessarily group them in with that whole movement.
In the 80s, there was a pretty big "goth" boom with bands like the Sisters Of Mercy, Christian Death, 45 Grave, Bauhaus and (of course) The Cure more or less defining the look and sound of "goth" for a good few years.
And of course now they've tried to divide themselves into different SUB-subcultures in recent years. As a result the music that gets associated with the movement now is more or less almost all-encompassing. Everything from rave, industrial, symphonic metal, various forms of extreme metal (black, death, etc), post-punk, psychobilly, certain brands of emo, punk and classical gets associated with them.
Oh, and do a google image search for "cybergoth" and prepare to laugh your fucking ass off. I know it's mean, but some of those people are just hilarious.

This post has been edited by Heccubus: 29 November 2007 - 10:09 AM

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#5 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 04:46 AM

I can't buy that about The Doors. Jim Morrisson is the Perry Como of rock and roll. He wouldn't even have "earned" any lasting popularity if he hadn't died.

I have albums from several of the bands you mentioned, and yeah, many of them don't have that much in common musically. Goth is like you say a subgenre of punk, which wasn't a musical style. It was a hairstyle.

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#6 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 03 December 2007 - 07:36 PM

I went to a "goth" club recently.

They were playing music that was essentially house music but with male vocalists instead of high piched squeeck fem vox affiliated with ministry of sound stuff.

old school goths were really into "industrial" music. which modern goths are to soft to get into.

the current goth crowd is a bunch of posers who don't know anything about they genre they think they're in. At least out my way anyway.

I invited a friend who was in the area to come along. HE was wearing shorts an da bright colored t-shirt with a backpack and blond messy hair. When they stopped him at the door and turned him away, I ran up, put my arm over his shoulder guesturing for the bouncer to get out of my way (and he did), I said: "they can impose goth dresscodes when they start playing real goth music. HAving the lights off doesn't make this a goth club."

and we had a good time laughing at how sad everyone was.

seriously what a bunch of pussies.

more Ministry less ministry of sound.
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#7 User is offline   Dorothy Icon

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 10:43 AM

Ok, you are dealing with two seperate sub-cultures, really. The neo-goths (like oh, say the twelve-year-olds that are only "acting out") that you often see running around today and the "traditional" goth. The ideologies that the traditional goths based their "culture" on are almost entirely disregarded by the neo-goths. Those ideologies find their basis in the gothic literature of the 18th century, and later, though to a lesser degree in the horror films of the 20th century. The subculture displays an interest in the macabre, and uses music more to build an atmosphere than to distinguish themselves. In fact, a decent rule of thumb is that if someone claims to be a goth, they aren't one. Many of the "traditional" goths (i.e. goths in ideal and interest, not merely in dress and music) have long since stopped dressing up regularly and have started families, but are still holding to the ideologies that first caused them to be attracted to the genre to begin with.

Anyway, those are a few observations that I have made... if I'm wrong on any point, somebody let me know. I had to do the research for my boss who was doing a report on the goth subculture. devil.gif It was probably the most fun I've had at work.

I found the wiki article informative... it has a lot of resources at the bottom if you would like to know more. Also I have a list of websites... somewhere.

edit: huh.gif

This post has been edited by Dorothy: 04 December 2007 - 10:45 AM

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#8 User is offline   z e w b Icon

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 05:40 PM

My friends and I rarely used the term "goth" in High School. We referred to them as "losers." It's was a great umbrella term that we used on all the dumb subcultures at our school; the jocks, the hippies, the emos, the mob of black guys with identical tall tees and sagging jeans, the anime nerds, we referred to all of them as losers. Luckily, when you get out of High School, you see less of the annoying subculture conformists and see more of just regular, normal people with minds of their own.

Unless you live in California.

Just kidding smile.gif

But seriously, fuck subculture. Fuck any kind of culture. Have your own opinions and for god sake, people, stop trying to organize and label yourselves. It's the same way with political parties. People label themselves and others liberals and conservatives, just have your own beliefs and forget all the "taking sides" nonsense.

This post has been edited by z e w b: 04 December 2007 - 05:52 PM

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#9 User is offline   Icey Icon

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Posted 04 December 2007 - 07:32 PM

I always take sides, across the table to whomever I'm speaking to.

Watching sports is much more fun that way, especially while your country is losing.
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#10 User is offline   Dorothy Icon

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 06:13 PM

QUOTE (z e w b @ Dec 4 2007, 03:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Have your own opinions and for god sake, people, stop trying to organize and label yourselves. It's the same way with political parties. People label themselves and others liberals and conservatives, just have your own beliefs and forget all the "taking sides" nonsense.
Funny that you should say that... Center to the goth subculture is the idea that they are not labeled, and don't believe in labels.

QUOTE (Icey @ Dec 4 2007, 05:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I always take sides, across the table to whomever I'm speaking to.
I only take sides against Icey. devil.gif
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#11 User is offline   z e w b Icon

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 08:35 PM

That's the irony of it all. The whole goth subculture claims to be all about being a nonconformist...but they all dress exactly alike, listen to the same crappy music, and have the same dumb opinions.
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Posted 08 December 2007 - 12:13 AM

I hung out with old Goths once. They wore all black, whore makeup not fit for the most whorish prostitute, they wore collars, they cut themselves severely and they listened to music equivalent to smashing trashcans with an iron pipe. I thought they were cool, then I grew up.
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QUOTE (Game Over @ Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
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#13 User is offline   Heccubus Icon

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 03:01 AM

No one's here to bash goths or the culture. Take it elsewhere. There's a lot of good to found within the entire goth "movement" for what it is. I think a lot of it is ridiculous too, but it's not all bad.

And barend, like it or not, cultures change. What's "goth" now wasn't goth ten years ago. Sadly, it's one of the most frustratingly inconsistent subcultures in that nothing about it seems to stay the same for long. Mostly because I think the people who subscribe to the whole thing are so afraid of being labeled that they find ways to constantly modify certain aspects of the whole thing. And I think the music you heard at this club was probably EBM (Electronic Body Music) which is probably the worst named genre in the history of all music, next to "electronica".
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#14 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 08:39 PM

QUOTE (Snake Logan @ Dec 8 2007, 12:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hung out with old Goths once. They wore all black, whore makeup not fit for the most whorish prostitute, they wore collars, they cut themselves severely and they listened to music equivalent to smashing trashcans with an iron pipe. I thought they were cool, then I grew up.


Ah sounds like Einstürzende Neubauten.

Yes everybody grows up. It's amazing, I find, when people find out I listen to some metal band or something and they say; "I used to listen to music like that, then I grew up." Before proudly telling me they listen to top 40 music intended for 12 year olds. Not saying you're one of those people, it just reminded me.

QUOTE (Heccubus @ Dec 8 2007, 03:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And barend, like it or not, cultures change. What's "goth" now wasn't goth ten years ago. Sadly, it's one of the most frustratingly inconsistent subcultures in that nothing about it seems to stay the same for long. Mostly because I think the people who subscribe to the whole thing are so afraid of being labeled that they find ways to constantly modify certain aspects of the whole thing. And I think the music you heard at this club was probably EBM (Electronic Body Music) which is probably the worst named genre in the history of all music, next to "electronica".


In my experience of the "goth" scene here in Sydney, it has often been largley made up of subcultural swingers who stepped into the shadows for a couple years and, if male, moved on when they realized they'd get more pussy listening to RNB or, if female, finished college and decided they wanted to stop rebelling and marry a real estate agent or certified practising accountant or something.

The only cool affiliates of the goth scene have ever been the artistically inclined creative ones, the musicians, and the Gary Numan fans. There have always been a vast majority of posers. But now without the hard hitting cool experimental awsomeness of the good "goth" bands, they're just a bunch of pussies in make up who can't find the light switch. Modern goths are "goths" in the same way Avril Levene fans are "punks". I'm not being 'oldschool' either. There are still cool bands out there, new ones, that you just don't hear at these clubs. They go with the safe, every song sounds the same, generic crap. It used to have variety and impact, stuff that made you want to dance. I didn't go to goth clubs because I was a goth, I went to them because they were the only places you could hear music worth dancing to as opposed to all the mainstream modern disco.
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#15 User is offline   Snake Logan Icon

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 09:34 PM

QUOTE (Heccubus @ Dec 8 2007, 07:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No one's here to bash goths or the culture. Take it elsewhere. There's a lot of good to found within the entire goth "movement" for what it is. I think a lot of it is ridiculous too, but it's not all bad.


Bash? I am simply looking at the negative aspects of such a culture. Certainly if we were to speak about a culture, we must look at the bad as well as the good.

QUOTE (barend @ Dec 10 2007, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ah sounds like Einstürzende Neubauten.

Yes everybody grows up. It's amazing, I find, when people find out I listen to some metal band or something and they say; "I used to listen to music like that, then I grew up." Before proudly telling me they listen to top 40 music intended for 12 year olds. Not saying you're one of those people, it just reminded me.


Not just the music. Also wearing all black, wearing makeup and cutting yourself. What can I say? I grew up and I no longer find the people who do those things cool.
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QUOTE (Game Over @ Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee, you are the Oscar Wilde of the 21st century.

QUOTE (Patch @ Feb 14 2008, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee is gay?!
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