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For or Against Where do you stand on the issues?

#31 User is offline   Snake Logan Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 01:03 AM

This isn’t punishment. This is them fulfilling out their duty. If they cannot find work then they might as well serve their country as cannon fodder or as an unfree labourer.
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QUOTE (Game Over @ Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee, you are the Oscar Wilde of the 21st century.

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Yahtzee is gay?!
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#32 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 02:03 AM

Ah. It's not punishment, it's just killing them. Unless I'm very much mistaken, you seem to be advocating either killing the unemployed under the guise of "serving their country", or enslaving them. Which to me sounds an awful lot like a punishment. It's possible for someone completely qualified not to be able to find work. Perhaps no businesses are open in their field. Perhaps they're just plain unpleasant. Whatever the reason, it doesn't mean we should kill them.
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#33 User is offline   Snake Logan Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 04:03 AM

They’re not being punished. They are being put to use. Half of them will be going to work camps and there is a good chance that someone who is conscripted into the army will survive. If their trade is unavailable then it is obsolete or there is an excess.

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QUOTE (Game Over @ Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee, you are the Oscar Wilde of the 21st century.

QUOTE (Patch @ Feb 14 2008, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee is gay?!
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#34 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 04:32 AM

Great. so all businesses need to do is to shut down all of their manufacturing and manual production work, create a surplus of unemployed, and then buy them cheap from the government for use in the work camps. Alternately, if pressed into the military, the unemployed will get three squares a day and exercise. Not to mention a decent paycheque. Since Australia isn't going to war with anyone, like ever, you're looking at a bigger waste of money than the unemployment you seem so upset with. I dare say that your ideal economic systems also need serious overhauling.

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#35 User is offline   Snake Logan Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 05:01 AM

The work camps would be government operated. The military conscripts would only be conscripted in case of war. If there is no war then everyone goes to work camps. I thought that was obvious. Obviously it wasn’t.
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QUOTE (Game Over @ Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee, you are the Oscar Wilde of the 21st century.

QUOTE (Patch @ Feb 14 2008, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee is gay?!
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#36 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 05:31 AM

Yes, it was obvious. So ... what do these work camps do then, if they don't take work away from commerical employees? They're WORK camps, right? So what WOPRK is being done there? Do these folks make roads, jeans, sneakers, do they paint cars, separate jelly beans, what? In any event, they are doing work, which is presumably to keep them from being unemployed. So are they paid? If so, then how much? If not, where's the incentive for any company to have employees to do these things? Wouldn't it be more efficient to have no employees in any processing jobs, and then to buy the processed product cheap from the government's slave labour camps? Wouldn't this system CREATE unemployment, and thereby a slave class (please find me a historical precedent for your counterargument)?

Another Question: What would you do with people burdened with severe physical or mental defects? Would that be work camps or military service? Just curious.

I am for: Countries where folks don't whine 24/7 about how the unemployed are cheapening their quality of life.
I am against: Ayn Rand wannabes.

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#37 User is offline   Snake Logan Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 06:04 AM

I was thinking farming, mining and logging camps. They would be payed with 2 square meals a day. They will work or they wont be payed. Most farms, mines and logging camps have machinery to do the work. If you have many people working then there less need for machinery. Thus a country can start exporting machinery and parts for those machines to other countries. The workers would be slave labourers. I am not here gain any moral ground here, since the world we live in is not moral nor is its people moral. Morality is dead.
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QUOTE (Game Over @ Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee, you are the Oscar Wilde of the 21st century.

QUOTE (Patch @ Feb 14 2008, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee is gay?!
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#38 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 10:47 AM

QUOTE (Snake Logan @ Jan 4 2008, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am against slaughtering useful minorities.
I am against unemployment benefits.
I am for taxing the rich on the larger percentage then the poor.


I would like to remind our audience that genocide is not a tenant of fascism. The Nazi brand, maybe, but not fascism in general.
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#39 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 10:56 AM

QUOTE (Snake Logan @ Jan 4 2008, 09:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Those who are unwilling or unable to work. Without unemployment benefits, I am sure that the numbers of those unwilling will decrease tremendously.



I think the majorities can be just as guilty as milking the system as any other racial or social class.

QUOTE (Snake Logan @ Jan 4 2008, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
3. Conscript all unemployed into the armed forces or into work camps.

These would limit unemployment severely. But like I said before, the entire economy/society needs a work over.


Thats a horrific idea. Your military would go to shit pretty fast. Have you thought this through at all?


QUOTE (Snake Logan @ Jan 5 2008, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They will be used as cannon fodder if nothing else.



Which becomes a horrific political problem. I’m really glad you don’t hold an office anywhere.


QUOTE (Snake Logan @ Jan 5 2008, 01:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This isn’t punishment. This is them fulfilling out their duty. If they cannot find work then they might as well serve their country as cannon fodder or as an unfree labourer.



I cant work. I’m agoraphobic. Am I then only suitable as cannon fodder? I do not receive unemployment benefits, however. Although, I’ve never tried to get any.
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#40 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 01:07 PM

Snake: Morality is only dead because you think so and attempt to perpetuate that concept via your own ridiculous actions. An advocate of slave labor? PREPOSTEROUS. As cute as this all is, I'm going to have to ask you to stop trolling. And if you're serious and want to be taken more seriously (by me at least), look into some political and economic theory that isn't out of the... hell, I can't even think of a time period THAT backward in those respects relative today.
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#41 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 01:09 PM

QUOTE (Snake Logan @ Jan 5 2008, 06:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was thinking farming, mining and logging camps. They would be payed with 2 square meals a day. They will work or they wont be payed. Most farms, mines and logging camps have machinery to do the work. If you have many people working then there less need for machinery. Thus a country can start exporting machinery and parts for those machines to other countries. The workers would be slave labourers. I am not here gain any moral ground here, since the world we live in is not moral nor is its people moral. Morality is dead.

So you advocate laying off farm workers, miners, and the logging industry (which is not automated), and then reemploying these skilled labourers as slaves in government industry. So too all of the machinists who used to make and service the machines you think are being used to do all of the labour of farming, mining, and forestry.

I wonder also what would be the point of laying off all of those people and of creating giant inefficient medieval farms at great expense, if in the end you're just going to feed the unemployed anyway? Isn't it easier simply to give them a benefit cheque and allow those farmers and miners and lumberjacks (as well as all those machinists) to keep their jobs?

I wonder too what happens when these folks become too old to perform unnecessary and inefficient manual labour? Perhaps they could be made into soap.


I am for: using soap.

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#42 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 01:12 PM

Firstly, I'd like to point out that you mean "Nor ARE its people moral"

That was pissing me off for some reason.

And more importantly, I'd like to ask how one knows that morality is dead... Because that's the first time I'd heard that it had died. And, seeing as I considered myself a moral person, I'm ashamed that I wasn't invited to the funeral.
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#43 User is offline   Sailor Abbey Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 01:37 PM

QUOTE (Slade @ Jan 5 2008, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Snake: Morality is only dead because you think so and attempt to perpetuate that concept via your own ridiculous actions. An advocate of slave labor? PREPOSTEROUS. As cute as this all is, I'm going to have to ask you to stop trolling. And if you're serious and want to be taken more seriously (by me at least), look into some political and economic theory that isn't out of the... hell, I can't even think of a time period THAT backward in those respects relative today.


Slade, who's trolling?

I'm not sure this was a terribly serious topic to begin with. Perhaps Mr. Logan is just playing devils advocate.
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#44 User is offline   Snake Logan Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 06:08 PM

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ Jan 6 2008, 02:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would like to remind our audience that genocide is not a tenant of fascism. The Nazi brand, maybe, but not fascism in general.


Perhaps.

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ Jan 6 2008, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the majorities can be just as guilty as milking the system as any other racial or social class.


Yes. Which is why we need to rework the economic system.

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ Jan 6 2008, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thats a horrific idea. Your military would go to shit pretty fast. Have you thought this through at all?


Yes I have. The conscripts, cannon fodder if you will, will be used as distractions so the proffesional army can make advances into enemy territory under cover.

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ Jan 6 2008, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Which becomes a horrific political problem. I’m really glad you don’t hold an office anywhere.


Perhaps.

QUOTE (Sailor Abbey @ Jan 6 2008, 02:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I cant work. I’m agoraphobic. Am I then only suitable as cannon fodder? I do not receive unemployment benefits, however. Although, I’ve never tried to get any.


You can work in a mine.

QUOTE (Slade @ Jan 6 2008, 05:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Snake: Morality is only dead because you think so and attempt to perpetuate that concept via your own ridiculous actions. An advocate of slave labor? PREPOSTEROUS. As cute as this all is, I'm going to have to ask you to stop trolling. And if you're serious and want to be taken more seriously (by me at least), look into some political and economic theory that isn't out of the... hell, I can't even think of a time period THAT backward in those respects relative today.


Morality was first preached 3,000 years ago by old men who molested little boys. Tell me of an age were human beings were moral.

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Jan 6 2008, 05:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So you advocate laying off farm workers, miners, and the logging industry (which is not automated), and then reemploying these skilled labourers as slaves in government industry. So too all of the machinists who used to make and service the machines you think are being used to do all of the labour of farming, mining, and forestry.

I wonder also what would be the point of laying off all of those people and of creating giant inefficient medieval farms at great expense, if in the end you're just going to feed the unemployed anyway? Isn't it easier simply to give them a benefit cheque and allow those farmers and miners and lumberjacks (as well as all those machinists) to keep their jobs?


I never said employed people would be redeployed. Who works on farms? On a one acre farm maybe 1 person with a tractor and attachments for that tractor. Those who would lose their jobs can be the new chief executive officers.

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Jan 6 2008, 05:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I wonder too what happens when these folks become too old to perform unnecessary and inefficient manual labour? Perhaps they could be made into soap.


Why? A human being is worth more then a bar of soap. That idea is horrible. It takes 21 years to raise a human and you want to waste those years by turning them into soap.
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QUOTE (Game Over @ Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee, you are the Oscar Wilde of the 21st century.

QUOTE (Patch @ Feb 14 2008, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yahtzee is gay?!
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#45 User is offline   Otal Nimrodi Icon

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Posted 05 January 2008 - 06:25 PM

QUOTE
Morality was first preached 3,000 years ago by old men who molested little boys. Tell me of an age were human beings were moral.
I think I'm going to ask for you to cite your sources on this one, Snake. This is the most preposterous claim you've made yet.
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