[Toru-chan]

A few regular posters have noted that it's very hard to get a discussion going, because detailed posts quickly disappear after just a few short replies. Also the number of forums and threads makes it very hard to even find your own posts. Asked ChefElf a while back if it was possible to quickly find active threads, and he said no, not really. So we're wondering, maybe it's time for an update?

Possible solutions include (1) drastically cutting down the number of forums, (2) upgrading the BB software to something easier to use/customise like phpBB or vBulletin, (3) changes to allow short replies (which lets be clear: are funny, valuable and worthwhile to the discussion) without rolling off the detailed posts which are designed to get the discussion flowing. Maybe a thank you button too when you don't want to really say anything, but want to slap the OP on the back without drowning out what they were saying.

Of course this is ChefElf's board, it's obviously his say in the end. I also gather that ChefElf serves a non-StarWars community too and if they're happy with the existing setup, that may present a problem for us. The board is struggling (and I was glad to hear JYAMG say what I was already wondering), but I really do appreciate being able to shoot the breeze with you guys and gals, so lets see what is possible.

Yeah, I've been wondering about that and if the ChefElf BBS doesn't need a tweak. This board has been struggling to get a discussion going for a while. A possible reason threads die quickly is that detailed, thought-provoking posts that get people thinking are quickly lost by the one-liners that follow it. When people check in on ChefElf they go straight to the end of the thread, miss the meat and decide 'nothing to see here'. My heart sinks everything a potential topic starter is bumped to the black hole that is the [Previous Page].

Possible solution: Make the member's blurb on the right-hand side of each post smaller, so we can fit more posts per page. Drop the Group+Posts+JoinedDate+MemberNo and even the avatar on the shorter posts. The one-liners are often funny so we don't want to lose them, but we need to stop them drowning out the good stuff. Also the limited page width (the posts only use half my screen width) doesn't help either.

BTW did speak to the Chef a while back about an easy way just to see the new posts, but Chef said the BBS software is limited with what you can do with it. Also given the low volume of posts, wondering if all the separate areas for each movie is appropriate (since we often talk across movies or make comparisons anyway). Might be time for the BBS to go a bit of renovation. There is much better forum software out there these days (which I find much easier to use), so maybe time to upgrade? Of course I volunteer to help.

(Yes, the irony of me posting this on the end of the "SW books..." thread isn't lost, but it's a perfect example)

Example: I wouldn't start a thread in a subforum, because I know if someone else posts to that forum it'll disappear into the bowels never to be found again.

That's all right. I'm just glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

And yeah, we probably could probably drop most of the sub-categories now. I remember when they were created, they were a necessity because the board was being flooded and new users (mostly annoying gushers) were joining up every two minutes and starting fifty threads just for the hell of it. Awful, awful days...

Anyway, I think now that the last of the prequels has been and gone and 'Star Wars' isn't the latest hot topic on everyone's mind anymore, the necessity for the sub-divided forums has probably gone too.

Over to you...

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 06 September 2007 - 02:49 AM

[civilian_number_two]

When I sign in, I just click on "View new posts." Apparently this will show me postes added since the last time I signed in. I've done this for four years now.

I also try to read everything in threads I'm interested in, and reply to the most recent interesting post. I think what kills a lot of threads are the one-liners, since once there's a few messages folks seem to think they can't reply to older posts. In most cases though these "older" posts are no more than a day or two past.

All that said, we could trim the subforums a bit. There isn't really enough activity these days to justify all the headings. Then again, why reorganize when no-one's really posting? I mean, it's not as though STAR WARS is really a current interest anymore.

[Toru-chan]

When I sign in, I just click on "View new posts." Apparently this will show me postes added since the last time I signed in. I've done this for four years now. I also try to read everything in threads I'm interested in, and reply to the most recent interesting post.

IMHO the problem with "View New Posts" is it lists the non-Star Wars stuff too. I did ask Chef and he said there's no way to filter it out. Alternately you can go into the main forum then open the subforums in tabs and look down there, but that feels too much like work. Maybe I'm lazy, but compared to other forums I'm in this is the hardest one to keep track of.

I think what kills a lot of threads are the one-liners, since once there's a few messages folks seem to think they can't reply to older posts. In most cases though these "older" posts are no more than a day or two past.

I'm not sure they think they can't reply to them, but that they never see them in the first place. Since the leading posts get buried very quickly, you can have to flip back through a many pages to find them. My theory: If it's hard to navigate, that keeps people away.

Another way of looking at it: It's not the one liners that are at fault, but the forum software which displays them in the way it did. Consider Slashdot. It shows hundreds of comments per page, many of them (very funny) one liners. And sometimes people don't want to reply an essay. If we rejigged the way pages were displayed (which may not even be possible), this may be a better cure.

So idea: more comments per page. Cut out the member statistics: It's those, rather than the one liners themselves, that bloat the pages out: A one liner should take one line on a page, and use the full screen width!!! I'll even crop my avatar as small as anyone likes. And lets trim the number forums down. KISS is the best idea (ie. short and simple). Structure should reflect what people talk about, rather than individual movies. Some common themes come to mind:

* Revisionism / Inconsistencies
* Why the Prequels sucked
* Favourite Scene/Line
* Interesting News and Links

Compared to other BBS solutions, personally I don't like this Invisionboard thing, but I can also understand ChefElf not wanting to invest the time in reorganizing the whole thing.

There isn't really enough activity these days to justify all the headings. Then again, why reorganize when no-one's really posting?

Perhaps, although you can also ask: Is the current state of the board the reason people aren't posting? I've done a some posts over the last months trying to get discussion going. That they disappear into the bowels of the BBS so quickly is a pretty big disincentive to spend time writing any more.

I mean, it's not as though STAR WARS is really a current interest anymore.

Seem to be a few of us hanging around here and it isn't for the free beer :-). I wasted several hours today enjoying Battlefront II which I learned about from Barend, and from a cultural POV I do get something out of this board. Plus the 'Secret History of Star Wars' was an eye-opener I only learned about through here too.

I've killed web sites in the past that have outlived their usefulness and it's a great relief when it's all over, but I don't think we're quite dead yet. I'd guess we've got about 150 lurkers and from JYAMG's "Dust" link maybe 20 regulars. How does everyone else feel?

PS. Final point I noticed after posting. Those QUOTE blocks waste heaps of space. The above block I could have just said as:

> I mean, it's not as though STAR WARS is really a current interest anymore.

The QUOTE system wastes about 7 lines of vertical space around every quote.

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 06 September 2007 - 06:04 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

That's true. And actually, to tell you the truth, most of us have had our five cents on 'Star Wars' many times over.

I have to say I feel really sorry for KurganX. The poor guy's going to great lengths, writing elaborate arguments for points the rest of us argued to death back in 2004 and nobody's got the energy to look at them any more. If only he'd been here back then.

These days, I can't even muster the energy to insult a gusher.


We're glad you mentioned the one-liners. That's what got Toru-Chan and myself started on this in the first place. Frequently, someone will write a nice interesting post and someone will reply with something like "Right on"... and if this person makes similar replies all over the forum (as some members do), then when another member browses the thread index, they'll think there's nothing to look at but a big series of "Right on"s and they'll just log off. Meanwhile, the interesting post will go unread, disappearing into the back pages of the forum, and everyone will miss out on a potentially interesting discussion.

Unfortunately though, it's not an easy problem to fix. If only there was a moderator function for deleting all "Right on" replies.

And if only there was a super-moderator function for removing every single instance of "All your bases are belong to me" from the internet that would not only remove the stupid phrase but melt the hard-drives of every git that thought it was clever or funny. Freakin' losers, the lot of them.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 06 September 2007 - 06:08 AM

[Chefelf]

A lot of the cosmetic stuff will be too difficult to edit and would most likely involve switching to a different forum/message board system. The work involved in doing that is certainly not something I want to look into. I will be upgrading to the latest Invision board in the next few months if all goes according to plan.

As for all the separate forums . . . I could merge everything back to one forum if people are interested. I really only separated things out because the ROTS stuff was out of control a couple of years back and I really needed it to be separate because it took over.

[KurganX]

That's true. And actually, to tell you the truth, most of us have had our five cents on 'Star Wars' many times over.

I have to say I feel really sorry for KurganX. The poor guy's going to great lengths, writing elaborate arguments for points the rest of us argued to death back in 2004 and nobody's got the energy to look at them any more. If only he'd been here back then.

These days, I can't even muster the energy to insult a gusher.

Thanks for the king words (I think?). I did only register here in June 2005. I first didn't even bother with the forums, but came here to post after ROTS was out mostly because I knew it was a safe place to vent about Star Wars... (unlike some other popular forums!). I did read a lot before posting.

But if other folks are too tired to post or read, that's really not my fault (not that you're saying it is). As long as I have opinions on it to vent, it's nice I have a place to put them, and as long as I run across people who want to argue on here, that's great too, as a nice way to waste time indulging in collective geekiness. That's what's fun about it.

Another thing I really love about this place is the wittiness. It seems that people come up with some incredibly funny jokes, one-liners, analogies and stories relating to Star Wars. I have frequented a lot of Star Wars themed forums and you really don't get much of that elsewhere. So that's another thing this place has going for it.

[Just your average movie goer]

Yeah, I think it's a nice atmosphere. And I do hope you get a few people on the boards who have got some venting left who can join in with you.

Actually, one thing I noticed here is that people's personalities seem to come across in their posts and it feels like you actually know the other users. Perhaps that's because it's the only forum I've ever really participated in but I remember seeing some links to stuff in the Force.Net forums a few years back and for all I know, all those posts could have been made by the same guy -> probably called Generic_Jedi or Darth_Something.

And yes, people generally have more distinctive usernames here too.

[Toru-chan]

A lot of the cosmetic stuff will be too difficult to edit and would most likely involve switching to a different forum/message board system. The work involved in doing that is certainly not something I want to look into. I will be upgrading to the latest Invision board in the next few months if all goes according to plan.

As for all the separate forums . . . I could merge everything back to one forum if people are interested. I really only separated things out because the ROTS stuff was out of control a couple of years back and I really needed it to be separate because it took over.

Chef, by cosmetic: is it possible to widen the posts to full screen width, show more entries per page and/or not list the member statistics on every post? Thanks for the board BTW and appreciate there's only so much time in a day.

Probably don't want to merge everything back into a single forum, but fewer and split (1) according to aging - e.g. "Interesting News and Links" (where we can list stuff like 'Secret History of Star Wars' which has a long shelf life) vs. general discussion forums. Also perhaps merchandise/ gaming/ something (I'd like to talk a bit about BattleFront which not everyone would be into). Listed some starter ideas for the divisions above. I'll throw discussion open to the floor.

Re: one-liners. Agree we best avoid "Me too!" type replies, but don't want to drop one-liners completely either. As KurganX notes, they can be witty/insightful. Fixing the short page size may help here too.

This place does have a good vibe. BTW KurganX I do appreciate your posts. Like you, I lurked here for a long time before I started contributing. (I started after I added a link to ChefElf's Star Wars lists to the Star Wars Wiki, and was flamed by force.net fan boys). I believe some here are Force.Net refugees too: please don't send them back! :-)

PS. Interested to hear Barend's thoughts, but I understand the Police won't let anyone in Sydney use the phone or internet during APEC.

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 06 September 2007 - 07:46 PM

[Bond]

Yeah, I think it's a nice atmosphere. And I do hope you get a few people on the boards who have got some venting left who can join in with you.

Actually, one thing I noticed here is that people's personalities seem to come across in their posts and it feels like you actually know the other users. Perhaps that's because it's the only forum I've ever really participated in but I remember seeing some links to stuff in the Force.Net forums a few years back and for all I know, all those posts could have been made by the same guy -> probably called Generic_Jedi or Darth_Something.

And yes, people generally have more distinctive usernames here too.

I agree; people can actually relax here.

[Jordan]

civ

I think what kills a lot of threads are the one-liners

bond

I agree; people can actually relax here.

Seriously bond, why do you feel the need to tell us that you agree, and then leave it at that.

JYMAG is right, many of the full timers at chef have exhausted SW topics. If you go back and read our threads, you'll notice how much we started to repeat ourselves at one point, eventually we cooled off on the topic altogether. Here are the topics we've covered

Revisionism
Technology and it's over use
Scene break down (pod race, little anakin the red baron, Jabba's palace, emporer and vader in the throne room during ESB, vaders ghost redemption)
Fanbase both old and new
George Lucas the liar
George Lucas the hack
George Lucas the naive
Lucas' lackies on new films
Director and Producer of ESB (main point of this topic was Lucas did neither and it turned out to be the best film)
Video Games (kotor was a hot topic since it's story line rivaled and destroyed that of the PT)
Books, comics
Holiday special
Political underpinnings in PT, and how they hurt the film and confused every one
Boba Fett fever
George Lucas' inablity to direct live actors
Contradictions during the OT and the PT and also between the PT and OT

And the list goes on





I guess the sub forums for all the films could be nerfed, but the small write ups below the forum links are funny!

This post has been edited by Jordan: 14 September 2007 - 12:54 PM

[Cobnat]

A lot of the cosmetic stuff will be too difficult to edit and would most likely involve switching to a different forum/message board system. The work involved in doing that is certainly not something I want to look into. I will be upgrading to the latest Invision board in the next few months if all goes according to plan.

As for all the separate forums . . . I could merge everything back to one forum if people are interested. I really only separated things out because the ROTS stuff was out of control a couple of years back and I really needed it to be separate because it took over.

We should conduct a poll.

[jariten]

I never really understood why the SW forum got split up in the first place, and it makes even less sense now.

[XXXXX]

It is hard to get discussions going because most people have nothing to contribute.

Anybody who copies en bloc an entire quote from a previous poster and then adds an emoticon to it and thinks they have contributed something worth while is mistaken. You have contributed nothing.

We can read what the previous poster has written for ourselves, thank you. Your reiteration and subsequent addition of one of 15 prepackaged emoticon responses to someone elses thoughts are unneccessary.

As for your amusing end-statements about how many times you live, how the force is like duct tape, or whatever - thanks. Each time I read it I am even more amused than I was the previous time I read the same sentence.

It's too bad that new posters do not read the older posts. Instead of posting 50 times a day, perhaps you could read a few posts a day instead. Some of the most interesting (or at least with the most number of views and/or most number of replies) are the following:

Unearthing the fossil...
Geaorge Lucarse the Woo maker (most replied to post in the forum at 241)
i dont know where you get your delusions... Midichlorians made easy
Asian Jedi? Nowhere to be found
Lucas releases the O-OT
Why I like the Prequels part one
Why the Empire strikes back is rubbish (most viewed post in the forum at 15,895)
Fly, R2, Fly
George Lucas, Fascism, and Anti-Semitism (one of the few subjects to be closed down by Chefelf after 17 pages of bizzare arguments)

At what exact moment did you decide it all sucked?
Why is there so much hatred for the prequels here?
Your Father wanted you to have this...
The Darth Vader Nooooo
Definitive List of Inconsistences between the OT and PT?
Calling out the bashers
The Force, it's what give a jedi his power
A star wars film written around a glorified NASCAR race
What is everyone's beef with Return of the Jedi?
Old Republic Ethics
Why PhantomMenace didn't suck
Shmi Skywalker's Death
Was it really THAT BAD??

If you are thinking of contributing to a thread, or even if you are thinking of starting your own thread, attempt to emulate one of the more intelligent posters such as


Chefelf
Casual Fan
azerty
Jariten
Jordan
Civilian Number 2
Despondant
Just Your Average Movie Goer
Cowboy Curtis
Kirby
Vwing
Mike Mac from NYU
Kurgan X
njamilla
Give Me The Originals Dammit
Xenduck
Smashman
Hannibal
Sagacity
diligent d
floppy disk
Gerhard
Mnesymone
rangwe
Michel Orla

These writers are almost always interesting, and even though some of them write complete and utter crap, they at least they write posts of more than one sentence, without lame acronyms, emoticons, or repetitious quotes.

Thanks guys, it's just too bad that most of you have better things to do these days and don't write anymore

[Toru-chan]

Hmm... That by XXXXX has to be the most conceited post ever posted on this forum. Presumably XXXXX is a regular poster who didn't have the guts to post it under their own name.

* There's been some criticism about one-liners and emoticon responses. I agree these are stalling the threads, but for the midichlorians sake, we have moderators on these forums. Moderate, instead of low-level mumbling and much worse anonymous sniping.

* There's a school of thought by some older posters that they said everything worth saying back in 2004, and that we relative noobs should not discuss these but instead should refer to those for their definitive words of wisdom. That's these sort of arrogance I'd more expect to see on Force.Net. Now make a FAQ if you like, but don't expect n00bs to trawl through 600 pages before they're worthy of contributing. If you're that bored with ChefElf, do you really need to hang around and grief n00bs? Start a thread, or contribute. But don't just sit there and moan about how it's all gone to sh1t.

* I noticed in the last year discussion really died down. I tried various threads to get discussion going, some serious, some funny. They all died. JYAMG did a bit better recently. KurganX posts some interesting stuff. At this stage, not sure whether it'll live or die, but either way, things need a shakeup.

* Yeah: I love ChefElf's movie topic descriptions and there was a good reason to split them - too many posts believe it or not, but the current forum structure is dragging things down. I also think the Invision BBS software is pretty crappy - makes it damned hard to follow thread or even see what anyone has posed - but gather from ChefElf it's near on impossible to reconfigure.

* Let's make some changes, archive and add a FAQ of old stuff, do some moderating and see if we can get it going again. If not, it may be time for ChefElf to ice the forum. A new one will crop up somewhere else. Either way, we're in limbo.

If you are thinking of contributing to a thread, or even if you are thinking of starting your own thread, attempt to emulate one of the more intelligent posters such as
Chefelf
Casual Fan
azerty
Jariten
Jordan
Civilian Number 2
Despondant
Just Your Average Movie Goer
Cowboy Curtis
Kirby
Vwing
Mike Mac from NYU
Kurgan X
njamilla
Give Me The Originals Dammit
Xenduck
Smashman
Hannibal
Sagacity
diligent d
floppy disk
Gerhard
Mnesymone
rangwe
Michel Orla

Sheesh. Whoever you are, at this stage I've gotta say go F*** yourself.

[Deepsycher]

they at least they write posts of more than one sentence, without lame acronyms, emoticons, or repetitious quotes.

Thanks guys, it's just too bad that most of you have better things to do these days and don't write anymore

Excuse me I hope you are not meaning MY acronyms?

Just incase:

I am not interested in Star Wars but lucky I found this page by curiousity. I never wrote one in this place or seen one in the Star Wars forums. I have nothing against it. I don't watch it much so I don't contribute anything here as I have nothing worthwhile to say about it.

You mentioned acronyms and as I only see me writing them in my own thread if you are referring to my acronyms that is pretty rude and ignorant. A lot of work and thought has gone into generating those words from the beginning and I don't dish out any any word. I know it is not the place to mention it here but if you are referring to ME as a lame poster by acronyms (which I am searching now in this forum) thread it isn't the place to personally attack other users in other parts.

Just because I haven't found an interest in Star Wars I don't attack users who like it. Reminds me of the sort of thing an (American style schoolyard bully) would say. It is not my fault that not many people has contributed this year but don't blame me and my acronyms. They are not stupid. Just because you don't like them does not mean they are stupid. Also I rarely ever use smilies in my posts.

Sometimes quality is better than quantity and people can build up on that quality in quantities. For a quality sentence that statement is demeaning by size and not considering that quantity is not always quality. It reminds me of a child who is looking at clothes for the brand name when you mention a list of people. Fine you like their posts. I am not going to compare because I don't know much about Star Wars and it wouldn't be fair for me to call them lame posters like what I think you are saying to me about my acronyms.

Just because you don't get your brand name of people why don't you think of or generate something similar to what they write in their style? Rather than to go and attack people in other places for writing wwhat you call lame acronyms?

Hmm... That by XXXXX has to be the most conceited post ever posted on this forum. Presumably XXXXX is a regular poster who didn't have the guts to post it under their own name.

I thought that one user is initially allowed account. So they don't go blaming and attacking other users (wondering if the acronym thing is concerning me) using any screen name in other non related Star Wars parts of this site.

Rather strange that some people say to "get a life than to spend life here" then this user goes round possibly devaluing people in other parts.

I respect this place because I haven't posted anything unworthwhile for a long time about the subject apart to this message to one person about the acronyms.

This post has been edited by Deepsycher: 15 September 2007 - 11:49 PM