[Cobnat]

Jordan- You're still implying that Che did inethical and inhumane things. I rather disagree. The US has done infinitely worse than what Che and the Cuban revolutionaries did, and they're doing it not to free people, but to crush resistance to them. The forces of the old imperialist order will always do horrible things to stay in power. It's up to the rebels to set the moral standard, which sadly no one in Iraq seems to be doing.

The argument you seem to have is; Guevara cant be evil because the United States is/was evil. Do you honestly see the world in black and white? Both the United States and Guevara committed atrocities against one another and civilians. All sides commit atrocities in every war; that is why to declare war is a war crime (Geneva Convention).

Are you calling the US troops in Iraq "imperialist"?

And, yes, Jor; I can eek out more than two words.

No. Whenever someone says ‘Imperialists’ then they are talking about the President of the United States and his/her lackeys.

[J m HofMarN]

Bond- Yes. Yes I am. Those of them who serve the imperialist agenda willingly are imperialists themselves.

Cobnat- Cite examples of Dr. Guevara's so-called attrocities against civilians. You're working off of assumptions with no evidence. Che and His Excellency had a higher moral code than the US did or does.

[Bond]

Bond- Yes. Yes I am. Those of them who serve the imperialist agenda willingly are imperialists themselves.

That's very rude. I'm sure if a former soldier were here on these boards, he or she would verbally pummel you right now.

As for Guevara, I think we'd moved on to military tactics, am I right?

This post has been edited by Bond: 07 September 2007 - 05:41 AM

[Slade]

JM: You're not really saying anything good about Guevera in your last few posts. You side-step the point and then say that the US was worse, which doesn't really answer the claim that his actions were unethical. I think all sides need to cite examples of whatever they're talking about first and foremost, though. Did Guevera/Castro commit acts of torture, etc.? That sort of thing. Not just "He was unethical." or "He was ethical. The US was worse." or what have you.

[J m HofMarN]

Slade et al: The only example they've come up with is that Guevara ran the prisons where former regime criminals were executed. I pointed out that these executions occured after a trial and that none of the criminals were tortured.

For another example, forces under Raul Castro took about 40 Americans prisoner as hostages. At the time the US was selling bombs and bullets to Batista to use on the rebels and the civilians who harbored them. Naturally some of the rebels were very much in favor of threatening harm to these people unless the US government stopped assaulting Cuba's liberty. His Excellency ordered instead that they be well treated and eventually had them released.

This assumption that war must involve attrocities is made from an imperialist view point and assumes that those making war have no regard for the countries they assault or their enemies. But I'm not saying that every war involving the US will involve attrocities. Just the vast majority of them. As for Cuba I have heard no tales of His Excellency or Dr. Guevara allowing torture or massacring civilians or indefinately detaining people without charge. The fact that Americans continually slam His Excellency for human rights abuse is hypocritical and only seeks to tear down a man who has worked for the better part of a century to lift his people and free them from the chains of American slavery.

Bond: Oh dear. I should feel awful if I offended a person who's been mowing down Iraqis for the past year.

Seriously, if people serve in that war and don't do what they can to stop it, they're as guilty as anyone. It's not like they don't have options. It was Eldridge Cleaver of the Panthers that suggested American soldiers should turn their guns on their officers and join the Cong during Vietnam, a suggestion I wholeheartedly approve of. I don't suppose I would say the same for Iraq, but there are less drastic options, there are veteran groups and counter recruiting orgs. Counter recruitment is an important tactic. The fewer servants the pigs have, the less able they will be to make war. The reason Tehran is still standing is because we've denied the imperialists the forces necessary to invade.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 07 September 2007 - 01:04 PM

[Spoon Poetic]

I think Slade's point is that you still haven't mentioned anything to prove that Che was a good man. All you do is give examples about how the U.S. is bad. That doesn't prove anything, and only serves to make people think you don't even know of any reasons why he's good except that you hate the U.S. and since the U.S. opposes/doesn't like him, that must make him someone good for you to admire.

[Bond]

True, Spoon. Guevara's only real claim to fame is for being on a T-shirt.

[Cobnat]

Cobnat- Cite examples of Dr. Guevara's so-called attrocities against civilians. You're working off of assumptions with no evidence. Che and His Excellency had a higher moral code than the US did or does.

No evidence? The testimony of those who escaped Cuban prisons is not enough for you?

Slade et al: The only example they've come up with is that Guevara ran the prisons where former regime criminals were executed. I pointed out that these executions occured after a trial and that none of the criminals were tortured.

Trail? You honestly believe that a communist trail could be fair? HA! That’s like saying Saddam was executed for his war crimes.

For another example, forces under Raul Castro took about 40 Americans prisoner as hostages. At the time the US was selling bombs and bullets to Batista to use on the rebels and the civilians who harbored them. Naturally some of the rebels were very much in favor of threatening harm to these people unless the US government stopped assaulting Cuba's liberty. His Excellency ordered instead that they be well treated and eventually had them released.

This is what I don’t get: You call Castro ‘His Excellency’ and yet you have told me that he is a former puppet of the Soviet Union. How can you respect a man that is a puppet to a country that you hate?

This assumption that war must involve attrocities is made from an imperialist view point and assumes that those making war have no regard for the countries they assault or their enemies. But I'm not saying that every war involving the US will involve attrocities. Just the vast majority of them. As for Cuba I have heard no tales of His Excellency or Dr. Guevara allowing torture or massacring civilians or indefinately detaining people without charge. The fact that Americans continually slam His Excellency for human rights abuse is hypocritical and only seeks to tear down a man who has worked for the better part of a century to lift his people and free them from the chains of American slavery.

Alright. Lets put aside the vast amount of witness testimonies for a moment concerning the crimes of Castro and Guevara. Under Castro hundreds of thousands of Cubans fled to Florida. Would they have fled if Castro’s reign was nice and pleasant? Hardly. Anyone who protests in Castro’s Cuba is beat-up by police and sent to overcrowded prisons without a trail.

(I moved this here so we wouldn’t have to argue in two threads about the same thing.)

Did people say "Oh look Che Guevara... Well guess it's time to overthrow the government" no.
But he did provide ideas on how to overthrow governments in his treatise on guerilla warfare, and he provided an example of devotion to the revolutionary ideal. I definately think he inspired people.

Pre…fookin…cisely. My argument has been that he inspired nothing because people will revolt if they need to revolt. Not because some guy leads a group of men into the forest and decides to take on the government of whatever country they are in. You cannot create a revolution out of nothing.

If you're against his ideals it's fairly obvious that you'd fail to see that.

Not really. I am against the imperialists and their whores but that doesn’t mean I am going to suddenly become stupid and join the communists simply because they also are against the imperialists.

You see, I don't know if you're aware of this, but in order to take advantage of someone you have to gain something by it. Dr. Guevara just got a lot of wounds, the deaths of many of his friends, and eventual martyrdom. So I'm sure you'll say "HE IS TEH BAD MAN CUZ HE GOTTED HIZ FRIENDS KILLED OMG!" but,

Hell no. Guevara’s ‘friends’ wanted to fight so as far as I am concerned it is their fault if they got killed. I am sure you would agree with me.

That's very rude. I'm sure if a former soldier were here on these boards, he or she would verbally pummel you right now.

You’re kidding right? There is no draft in the United States so those soldiers made a choice when they joined the army.

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 07 September 2007 - 06:15 PM

[Bond]

Excellent points, Cobnat.

Now, I'm no Communist, but I think I know a radical when I see one, and Guevara was one. He's the al-Zarqawi to Castro's bin Laden.

[J m HofMarN]

No evidence? The testimony of those who escaped Cuban prisons is not enough for you?

What testimony? Who escaped? When did they escape?

You honestly believe that a communist trail could be fair?

Yes.

How can you respect a man that is a puppet to a country that you hate?

I hate the Soviet Union? His Excellency is a puppet to them? Not for about twenty years now.

Alright. Lets put aside the vast amount of witness testimonies for a moment concerning the crimes of Castro and Guevara. Under Castro hundreds of thousands of Cubans fled to Florida. Would they have fled if Castro’s reign was nice and pleasant? Hardly. Anyone who protests in Castro’s Cuba is beat-up by police and sent to overcrowded prisons without a trail.

I'll write to his excellency and ask that his prisons have hiking trails. So that sould make you happy. And could it possibly be that those people leaving do so because of a certain blockade? As for protests, there are plenty of changes going on in Cuba. For instance, Raul Castro's own daughter is leading a push to have gay marriage legally recognized, making Cuba the first country in South America to do so, ahead of even the US. I don't know about their protest laws, nor have I heard any reports of police beatings, although there were plenty of them under Batista and Fidel was wounded twice in such actions.

My argument has been that he inspired nothing because people will revolt if they need to revolt.

By the same logic, Julia Childes inspired nothing, because people will eat if they need to eat. She just provided recipes and examples. Never mind that plenty of kids saw her or heard of what she was doing and decided to emulate her, no, she inspired nothing.

Hell no. Guevara’s ‘friends’ wanted to fight so as far as I am concerned it is their fault if they got killed. I am sure you would agree with me.

Neither Dr. Guevara nor his comrades are to blame. It is the imperialists who first set up the situations that required his actions, and who then used immoral tactics to defeat his group such as torturing rebels, mass executions, and bombing villages, etc.

Bond- You realize two of those points contradicted yours right? Also, stop with the goddamned comparisons. I DO NOT care if Guevara was Gilbert to Castro's Sullivan or Thelma to his Louise. In fact I'll venture to say that indeed no one gives a crap.

You're like crotch rot to my syphillis.

[Bond]

Bond- You realize two of those points contradicted yours right? Also, stop with the goddamned comparisons. I DO NOT care if Guevara was Gilbert to Castro's Sullivan or Thelma to his Louise. In fact I'll venture to say that indeed no one gives a crap.

Well, Hugo Chavez could be Darth Vader to Castro's Emperor.

As for those escapees, they made up most of the participants of the Bay of Pigs disaster back in 1961. The only reason the Cubans didn't help them is because they were afraid of reprisals; the same thing happened with the slaves at Harper's Ferry in 1859.

[Cobnat]

What testimony? Who escaped? When did they escape?

http://www.fiu.edu/~...astrotrial.html

`Worst of the worst'
Villoldo has called on Miami radio and television for exiles to contribute personal memories and documentation on Castro's worst human rights violations, and has narrowed his field to about 56 -- ``the worst of the worst.

The mass execution, without trials, of about 40 anti-Castro guerrillas captured in Cuba's Escambray Mountains in the 1960s.

The 1959 executions of 32 air force personnel who had served the former Batista regime. A judge had found them innocent, but Castro personally ordered a new trial and acted as prosecutor.

The 1994 drowning of 41 men, women and children when Cuban chase boats rammed a tugboat as the group tried to escape the island.

The most promising charge may be the Brothers to the Rescue shoot-down, a case in which a federal judge in Miami awarded $187 million last December to victims' relatives who filed a civil suit under a 1996 anti-terrorism law.

Before you dismiss this as ‘right-wing’ propaganda; This article is from a university.

Also, you might want to check this out:

http://en.wikipedia...._rights_in_Cuba

Yes.

You are truly naïve then.

I hate the Soviet Union? His Excellency is a puppet to them? Not for about twenty years now.

Before I start this debate, tell me one thing; what is your opinion on the Soviet Union?

I'll write to his excellency and ask that his prisons have hiking trails. So that sould make you happy. And could it possibly be that those people leaving do so because of a certain blockade? As for protests, there are plenty of changes going on in Cuba. For instance, Raul Castro's own daughter is leading a push to have gay marriage legally recognized, making Cuba the first country in South America to do so, ahead of even the US. I don't know about their protest laws, nor have I heard any reports of police beatings, although there were plenty of them under Batista and Fidel was wounded twice in such actions.

I am not talking about now. I am talking about the period during the 70s and 80s when Castro ‘genius’ economic skills sunk Cuba into a depression which it still isn’t out of. As a result (in 1982) hundreds of thousands of Cubans with boats travelled to Florida when the U.S opened up its boarders. Unfortunately after being swamped with Cuban refugees the U.S closed its boarders again. Plus when there was a mass exodus, Castro let Criminals (not political prisoners but hardened criminals) out of his jails and sent them to the U.S which was also a major factor in the U.S closing its boarders. Oh and throughout the 70s there were massive protests by students that were all put down.

By the same logic, Julia Childes inspired nothing, because people will eat if they need to eat. She just provided recipes and examples. Never mind that plenty of kids saw her or heard of what she was doing and decided to emulate her, no, she inspired nothing.

Necessity is the mother of all invention. If Childes wasn’t around they would still have those damn cooking shows now; someone else would have ‘invented’ them.

Neither Dr. Guevara nor his comrades are to blame. It is the imperialists who first set up the situations that required his actions, and who then used immoral tactics to defeat his group such as torturing rebels, mass executions, and bombing villages, etc.

Castro didn’t introduce the same tactics during the bay of pigs? If I remember correctly his artillery alone demolished several villages which the exiles were using as supply outposts.

[Bond]

I am not talking about now. I am talking about the period during the 70s and 80s when Castro ‘genius’ economic skills sunk Cuba into a depression which it still isn’t out of. As a result (in 1982) hundreds of thousands of Cubans with boats travelled to Florida when the U.S opened up its boarders. Unfortunately after being swamped with Cuban refugees the U.S closed its boarders again. Plus when there was a mass exodus, Castro let Criminals (not political prisoners but hardened criminals) out of his jails and sent them to the U.S which was also a major factor in the U.S closing its boarders.

If I'm not mistaken, you can find more info about this in a little film called Scarface.

[J m HofMarN]

As for those escapees, they made up most of the participants of the Bay of Pigs disaster back in 1961. The only reason the Cubans didn't help them is because they were afraid of reprisals; the same thing happened with the slaves at Harper's Ferry in 1859.

What in God's name are you on about, sir?

If I'm not mistaken, you can find more info about this in a little film called Scarface.

You can find more info about how the US is evil in the film Soylent Green. Or you could just not bring fictional mob movies into the debate.

Cobnat- You were counting on me not reading that article, weren't you. It was REPORTED by a university. The actual nonsense is the folley of this villain:

``We are not interested in sensation or propaganda. We want to bring him to trial in a legal process, said Villoldo, a former CIA agent who helped track down Cuban-Argentine guerrilla Ernesto ``Che Guevara in Bolivia in 1967.

If I had my way Mr. Viloldo would be swinging from a rope where filth like him belong. I will not even begin to address his supposed concerns for human rights when his hobbies include torture and burying men a thousand times better than him in mass graves. Once again, if you're going to post evidence make it evidence from someone who doesn't deserve swift death.

Before I start this debate, tell me one thing; what is your opinion on the Soviet Union?

In 1992, the last time the Soviet Union existed, my opinion of them was that they had neat looking fighters, and that they weren't as good as the US because they didn't have G I Joe.

I am talking about the period during the 70s and 80s when Castro ‘genius’ economic skills sunk Cuba into a depression which it still isn’t out of.

Blockade anyone?

out of his jails and sent them to the U.S which was also a major factor in the U.S closing its boarders.

The US loves Cuban criminals. They have scum from the Batista regime running freely, former slave owners, terrorists who blew up Cuban airliners, and your piece of shit friend Mr. Viloldo and Felix Rodriguez. A country that welcomes mass murderers and torturers should be happy to hold a few more, and I'd rather have regular murderers and thieves living near me than former Batista regime or members of CIA deathsquads.

Necessity is the mother of all invention. If Childes wasn’t around they would still have those damn cooking shows now; someone else would have ‘invented’ them.

Great, whatever. No one can invent anything new or inspire anyone. If you say so. That discussion is over.

Castro didn’t introduce the same tactics during the bay of pigs? If I remember correctly his artillery alone demolished several villages which the exiles were using as supply outposts.

His Excellency fought to repel that invasion personally, and I believe the imperialist puppets were defeated long before they could take even a single town, much less harm any Cuban civilians. And do you know what happened to the former Batista officials and landowners who not only abused Cuba's people, but came back to try to reconquer the island under the banner of a foreign people? Out of nearly 1000, all but around 12 were released in return for food and medicine. The twelve were tried on war crimes charges.

[Bond]

Will you stop going on about "His Excellency"?

He's not excellent: He's a right douche with a stupid beard. Scum like him and his little friend Hugo are the reason socialism died out as a viable form of government.