[Spoon Poetic]

Surprisingly, Cobnat here's got my vote, were we scoring this debate. Bond, your contributions are adding nothing. Jm, you refute Cobnat's points, but without any valid reasons. "It is of my opinion the man that article quoted deserves death" is not a reason why the article is not valid. Neither is "What in God's name are you on about?" I don't know a lot about this topic, which is why I'm not active in it, but I like seeing both sides of the debate. However, at this point, all I know is Cobnat's side which seems sound, and that Bond hates Che for no apparent reason except he has a stupid beard, and that Jm loves him because he hates the U.S. I'm not trying to pick on anyone, but can you guys please back up your opinions with some stories and facts? And sources would be nice, but at this point I'd even be happy without them.

[Cobnat]

Cobnat- You were counting on me not reading that article, weren't you. It was REPORTED by a university. The actual nonsense is the folley of this villain:
If I had my way Mr. Viloldo would be swinging from a rope where filth like him belong. I will not even begin to address his supposed concerns for human rights when his hobbies include torture and burying men a thousand times better than him in mass graves. Once again, if you're going to post evidence make it evidence from someone who doesn't deserve swift death.

Please. Offer me an article about U.S war crimes so I can dismiss it because the author has a political bias against the United States.

In 1992, the last time the Soviet Union existed, my opinion of them was that they had neat looking fighters, and that they weren't as good as the US because they didn't have G I Joe.

What is your retrospective opinion on the Soviet Union?

Blockade anyone?

What fucking blockade? Cuba was constantly trading with the Soviet Union and countries in South America and Africa. Plus it was receiving military and economic aid from the Soviet Union.

The US loves Cuban criminals. They have scum from the Batista regime running freely, former slave owners, terrorists who blew up Cuban airliners, and your piece of shit friend Mr. Viloldo and Felix Rodriguez. A country that welcomes mass murderers and torturers should be happy to hold a few more, and I'd rather have regular murderers and thieves living near me than former Batista regime or members of CIA deathsquads.

Yes; I am sure that the United States (and its people) love drug runners, drug dealers and drug suppliers.

Great, whatever. No one can invent anything new or inspire anyone. If you say so. That discussion is over.

No. I am sure that someone ‘inspired’ the making of the wheel, the discovery of fire or the making of the bow and spear.

[Bond]

Surprisingly, Cobnat here's got my vote, were we scoring this debate. Bond, your contributions are adding nothing. Jm, you refute Cobnat's points, but without any valid reasons. "It is of my opinion the man that article quoted deserves death" is not a reason why the article is not valid. Neither is "What in God's name are you on about?" I don't know a lot about this topic, which is why I'm not active in it, but I like seeing both sides of the debate. However, at this point, all I know is Cobnat's side which seems sound, and that Bond hates Che for no apparent reason except he has a stupid beard, and that Jm loves him because he hates the U.S. I'm not trying to pick on anyone, but can you guys please back up your opinions with some stories and facts? And sources would be nice, but at this point I'd even be happy without them.

Spoon, what is it between the two of us? I mean no animosity, but first MSPaint Comic Game Thing and now this?

[Spoon Poetic]

The MS Paint thing you should know everyone's problems by reading what's there. Here, I specifically said I'm not picking on anyone. I'm just not seeing any real debate. Jm likes him but has few reasons to back it up. You don't but have few reasons to back it up. I'm just asking people to provide some reasons, facts, numbers, sources, that kind of thing so that I can get a better feel for both sides and actually learn something.

[Jordan]

My point from the beginning was you can't denounce the US for barbaric acts if you support the same acts when you're political party or country of choice does them.

Scroll to the bottom http://www.therealcu...rderedbyChe.htm

Some books on the subject http://books.google....a...nt&ct=title

When you go to battle, be prepared to crack a few skulls. Che was not out of the ordinary for a man in his position. Yet his fan boys seem to think so. He's trenched in myth and romance.

http://www.cubaarchi...nglish_version/

Castro and Che were underdogs fighting 'the man'. This is why JM loves them. The US is evil because it's big and powerful, so by nature they can't be good.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 08 September 2007 - 08:37 PM

[Cobnat]

The US is evil because it's big and powerful, so by nature they can't be good.

No. The Imperials are evil because they indiscriminately invade a country (right after destroying its economy through UN sanctions) every few years.

[J m HofMarN]

Bond-

He's not excellent: He's a right douche with a stupid beard.

Point accepted. I look forward to your reply to the following:
Your beard is gay and has herpes.

Cobnat-

Please. Offer me an article about U.S war crimes so I can dismiss it because the author has a political bias against the United States.

I don't mind a political bias. But the man responsible for that idiocy is auctioning Che Guevara's scalp. A man who cuts the scalps off people he helps murder is bitching about human rights in a country he's been trying to take over.

What is your retrospective opinion on the Soviet Union?

I'm not in favor of the Soviets. Che himself pointed out they were as much an imperialist power as the US. However I think that once they got rid of Stalin they were very much the lesser of two evils.

I know you're trying to persecute His Excellency for Soviet ties, but he had no choice. Castro didnt declare himself a communist immediately. He didnt talk to the Soviets. Actually after the revolution his first trip was to the US. Before he met with anyone he met with Langston Hughes and Malcolm X. Then the CIA offered him a wheelbarrow of money to let American corporations continue to exploit Cuba. Then he said no. It took a year or two of hostilities with Washington before he declared himself a communist and joined the Soviet sphere. Had Washington accepted Cuba's independence and right to self determination Cuba would not have joined the Soviets.

What fucking blockade?

The US has a policy that any ship that has docked in Cuba can't enter the US ports. That's interfering in free trade which is against various international charters and is in effect a blockade.

Yes; I am sure that the United States (and its people) love drug runners, drug dealers and drug suppliers.

Hey, I don't know about you but between a coke dealer and people who blow up air liners, plot needless invasions, and hunt and torture freedom fighters, if I had to pick one as my room mate I'd go with the coke dealer. The US invites anyone to come stay here if they'll kill Cubans, why is it that His Excellency is the bad guy for letting people out of his jails to stay here. There's a difference between a Batista regime member who liked to rape peasant farmers and a regular rapist? If we're going to welcome and, indeed, fund one, why should we not welcome the other?

Jordan- I'll now execute your article by firing squad:

"I am much more valuable to you alive than dead," he told his captors pleading for his life. Unfortunately for him, the Bolivian army gave him some of his own medicine

I'm sorry, but no. Dr. Guevara, during his interrogation by the villain Felix Rodriguez, stated that he regretted being captured but only because he should have died fighting. When the Bolivian soldier came in to kill him after shooting two of his comraddes, Guevara's last words were "Shoot, coward, you are going to kill a man" he was shot once in the stomach and lingered on for a while before they finally decided to shoot him in the chest and finish him.

Of his racist comments against Cubans and Mexicans.

What? Guevara lived in both countries for quite some time. I don't think he had a problem with either nationalities. Nor is it documented in any book I've read on him.

"Crazy with fury I will stain my rifle red while slaughtering any enemy that falls in my hands! My nostrils dilate while savoring the acrid odor of gunpowder and blood. With the deaths of my enemies I prepare my being for the sacred fight and join the triumphant proletariat with a bestial howl!"

Soungs great to me.

Also, the fact that they have an image of his famous picture superimposed with a skull, as well as providing photographs of his severed body parts makes it look like these are not people who have any business talking about human rights. Those obsessed with poking dead carcasses and embarassing those who are long dead (for instance, on this very page Viloldo gloats that they can't find Che's body. He is a sick man and I hope someone will do justice to him)

And they list people executed, but not why. They also don't claim there weren't trials, they simply claim the trials weren't fair. Also, some of the people Che executed were his own men, friends of his who desserted or turned informant. I say bully for him.

All you have on him is that he was in command of a prison where people were executed and the trials might not have been fair. Against his CIA murderers there are charges of torture, murder obviously without trial, and treason against Cuba.

Against Batista there were at least 40 instances of torture against His Excellency's forces alone, murder without trial, attempted murder without trial against His Excellency, selling out to US interests, racketeering and involvement with the mafia, etc etc.

[Cobnat]

I don't mind a political bias. But the man responsible for that idiocy is auctioning Che Guevara's scalp. A man who cuts the scalps off people he helps murder is bitching about human rights in a country he's been trying to take over.

Source?

I'm not in favor of the Soviets. Che himself pointed out they were as much an imperialist power as the US. However I think that once they got rid of Stalin they were very much the lesser of two evils.

Except when they invaded Afghanistan to fight the Taliban who were fighting against the communist government because they didn’t want free schools, hospitals and women to walk around without a man by their side.

Tell me; which side would you have been on in that proxy war had you been born 20 years earlier?

I know you're trying to persecute His Excellency for Soviet ties, but he had no choice. Castro didnt declare himself a communist immediately. He didnt talk to the Soviets. Actually after the revolution his first trip was to the US. Before he met with anyone he met with Langston Hughes and Malcolm X. Then the CIA offered him a wheelbarrow of money to let American corporations continue to exploit Cuba. Then he said no. It took a year or two of hostilities with Washington before he declared himself a communist and joined the Soviet sphere. Had Washington accepted Cuba's independence and right to self determination Cuba would not have joined the Soviets.

Oh yes. Castro seemed very reluctant when he was hugging and kissing Khrushchev. He sold his country out to the Soviets which is the same thing as selling it out to the Americans. Personally I would want a leader who can stick to his/her non-Alignment treaties.

The US has a policy that any ship that has docked in Cuba can't enter the US ports. That's interfering in free trade which is against various international charters and is in effect a blockade.

Lets put the moral question aside. If a ship has docked in the port of a country that is hostile towards your country; would you let it into your docks? I doubt Castro would have let American ships into his docks either.

Hey, I don't know about you but between a coke dealer and people who blow up air liners, plot needless invasions, and hunt and torture freedom fighters, if I had to pick one as my room mate I'd go with the coke dealer. The US invites anyone to come stay here if they'll kill Cubans, why is it that His Excellency is the bad guy for letting people out of his jails to stay here. There's a difference between a Batista regime member who liked to rape peasant farmers and a regular rapist? If we're going to welcome and, indeed, fund one, why should we not welcome the other?

You missed my point. By knowingly releasing hardened criminals into the United States; Castro committed a crime against the American civilian population.

[J m HofMarN]

Source?

http://www.iht.com/a...hes-Remains.php

Forgive me, it's actually just some hair he snipped off the body, not the entire scalp. Never the less, Viloldo really should pay for his crimes one day, and I truly hope the scoundrel dies for his sins against the Cuban people.

Tell me; which side would you have been on in that proxy war had you been born 20 years earlier?

I have to go with the Afghan rebels in this case. You can no more force socialism on people than you can force "democracy"

Oh yes. Castro seemed very reluctant when he was hugging and kissing Khrushchev. He sold his country out to the Soviets which is the same thing as selling it out to the Americans. Personally I would want a leader who can stick to his/her non-Alignment treaties.

Two years after the revolution and just before the US invasion. Patrice Lumumba didnt join either side but just because he might have been a socialist the imperialists killed him. Had His Excellency done such Cuba would now be the fifty first state and His Excellency would be in a mass grave just like where Che ended up.

And asking for aid does not mean selling out. Look at where that aid money went: to the country. Batista took US bribes and the money flowed to him and to the US corporations enslaving Cuban peasants. Castro made that alliance for Cuba, not for personal gain. Calling him a sell out is like calling Washington a sell out for asking for French aid against England. Washington was a sell out of course, but for completely different reasons.

Lets put the moral question aside. If a ship has docked in the port of a country that is hostile towards your country; would you let it into your docks? I doubt Castro would have let American ships into his docks either.

Yes, yes I would. Because I'm not a spiteful moron. What are you trying to imply here? The US is guilty of financing the murder of an entire Cuban olympic team via Posada Carilles, but it's too dangerous for, not a Cuban ship, but a ship that's BEEN to Cuba to dock in one of our ports? Do you have any idea how patently absurd that is? I may not like you, and I might not invite you over to my house, but in what dimension does it make sense for me to avoid anyone who's been to your house?

You missed my point. By knowingly releasing hardened criminals into the United States; Castro committed a crime against the American civilian population.

The US let thousands of criminal profiteers come over after the revolution. Hell, they set Batista up with a place to stay on another island. Posada Carilles, that creep with Che Guevara's hair and photos of his corpse, and of course Oliver North and various other evil doers are allowed to walk free here. Not to mention this is one of the more violent and well armed countries in the world. Once again, if I had to choose between a Cuban coke dealer and some guy who likes to blow up Cuban airliners I think I'd live next to the coke dealer. If the US wants Cuban criminals then why should His Excellency not send them? It's the US that's doing a disservice to their people by advertising safe haven for anyone, no matter how evil, so long as they don't like Cuba being a free country.

By the way, a note on the above: Several American citizens, among them a former DEA officer, have volunteered to attempt to capture Oliver North for his role in drug smuggling, contra warfare, and the coup against Salvador Allende. There is a warrant for his arrest in Libya and European courts are considering international warrants. He's stated that such procedings "limit where he travels" which, while certainly a victory that the piece of shit lives in fear of arrest, is nothing close to what he deserves.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 09 September 2007 - 04:14 AM

[Cobnat]

I have to go with the Afghan rebels in this case. You can no more force socialism on people than you can force "democracy"

HA! Yet you continue to vocally support Castro’s regime.

Two years after the revolution and just before the US invasion. Patrice Lumumba didnt join either side but just because he might have been a socialist the imperialists killed him. Had His Excellency done such Cuba would now be the fifty first state and His Excellency would be in a mass grave just like where Che ended up.

What about Gandhi or Mandela? By your logic they should be in mass graves right now.

And asking for aid does not mean selling out. Look at where that aid money went: to the country. Batista took US bribes and the money flowed to him and to the US corporations enslaving Cuban peasants. Castro made that alliance for Cuba, not for personal gain. Calling him a sell out is like calling Washington a sell out for asking for French aid against England. Washington was a sell out of course, but for completely different reasons.

He sold his country out and became a Soviet foothold into the Caribbean and South America. He sold his country out to make sure that his regime remains in power. That is selfish in my opinion.

Yes, yes I would. Because I'm not a spiteful moron. What are you trying to imply here? The US is guilty of financing the murder of an entire Cuban olympic team via Posada Carilles, but it's too dangerous for, not a Cuban ship, but a ship that's BEEN to Cuba to dock in one of our ports? Do you have any idea how patently absurd that is? I may not like you, and I might not invite you over to my house, but in what dimension does it make sense for me to avoid anyone who's been to your house?

If you want nothing to do with me then I guess it would make sense. Though this is basic economic embargo; it really is up to a country whether it wants to accept ships from countries whose governments it disagrees with. Since this is not an international embargo; I see no problem with it.

The US let thousands of criminal profiteers come over after the revolution. Hell, they set Batista up with a place to stay on another island. Posada Carilles, that creep with Che Guevara's hair and photos of his corpse, and of course Oliver North and various other evil doers are allowed to walk free here. Not to mention this is one of the more violent and well armed countries in the world. Once again, if I had to choose between a Cuban coke dealer and some guy who likes to blow up Cuban airliners I think I'd live next to the coke dealer. If the US wants Cuban criminals then why should His Excellency not send them? It's the US that's doing a disservice to their people by advertising safe haven for anyone, no matter how evil, so long as they don't like Cuba being a free country.

I wouldn’t call Cuba a ‘free’ country. Free from the Empire perhaps but not ‘free’. Regardless; you seem to be under the impression that I am for the Empire; I am not. I not for the Cuban dictatorship either. All I am saying is that you should open your eyes and realise that Castro’s Cuba is nothing close to a utopia and it is far from a ‘benevolent dictatorship’.

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 09 September 2007 - 09:51 PM

[J m HofMarN]

HA! Yet you continue to vocally support Castro’s regime.

As I said, the USSR was the lesser of two evils. His Excellency made the right choice. It's funny how all the things people think Castro should have done would have led to his death and the reoccupation of Cuba. Makes it pretty clear what you lot are after.

What about Gandhi or Mandela? By your logic they should be in mass graves right now.

They were both fairly pro western and non violent non communists.

He sold his country out and became a Soviet foothold into the Caribbean and South America. He sold his country out to make sure that his regime remains in power. That is selfish in my opinion.

What harm did the arrangement do to Cuba? The Soviets gave them defense technology and bought the surpus sugar left over thanks to the American embargo. Had His Excellency not allied with the Soviets it is undeniable that Cuba would have gone back to US control, which is obviously what you want since you keep arguing for actions that would have caused it. Explain just what you think would happen, cuz to me the scenario looks like this:

US: We're going to try to kill you
Soviets: We'll give you the stuff to defend yourself
Cuba: No thanks we're fine
US: PWNed.
Cuba: Welcome back, imperialist slave masters.

If you want nothing to do with me then I guess it would make sense. Though this is basic economic embargo; it really is up to a country whether it wants to accept ships from countries whose governments it disagrees with. Since this is not an international embargo; I see no problem with it.

Yes, if its from YOU. But from people who KNOW you? That's insane. You deliberately misunderstood my statement. The US isn't just blocking Cuban ships, it's blocking ships from other countries if they've docked in Cuba. So a ship carrying grain for somewhere and tin for the US can't drop their grain in Cuba and then continue to the US. That effects the nationals of non involved countries and infringes on the sovereignty and free trade of other countries.

[Cobnat]

As I said, the USSR was the lesser of two evils. His Excellency made the right choice.

USSR is the lesser of two evils? I guess the millions in the Gulags would disagree but since when has that changed the mind of communists like you.

It's funny how all the things people think Castro should have done would have led to his death and the reoccupation of Cuba. Makes it pretty clear what you lot are after.

What I am after? I want Cuba to be a place where you can speak your mind without getting locked up and tortured. I want Cuba to be a place where the people can choose their leaders instead of being left with an old smeg who has driven his country’s economy (and society) into the ground. Although; I guess that is ‘counterrevolutionary’ and so it would explain why you bunch would be against it. As for national sovereignty; I think it is ironic that you (a communist) are talking about a country being independent when the ideals of Marx are strictly against nationalism.

They were both fairly pro western and non violent non communists.

So being non violent and non communist is bad in your opinion? They were not west; they were not east either.

What harm did the arrangement do to Cuba

It nearly got Cuba nuked.

Yes, if its from YOU. But from people who KNOW you? That's insane. You deliberately misunderstood my statement. The US isn't just blocking Cuban ships, it's blocking ships from other countries if they've docked in Cuba. So a ship carrying grain for somewhere and tin for the US can't drop their grain in Cuba and then continue to the US. That effects the nationals of non involved countries and infringes on the sovereignty and free trade of other countries.

Oh please. Then those countries must choose whether they want Cuba or the United States as a trading partner. It’s the United States’ sovereign right to accept who they wish into their boarder and even if they act like a spoiled brat, it is still their right to do so.

[Bond]

Two years after the revolution and just before the US invasion. Patrice Lumumba didnt join either side but just because he might have been a socialist the imperialists killed him. Had His Excellency done such Cuba would now be the fifty first state and His Excellency would be in a mass grave just like where Che ended up.

That might have avoided the Cuban Missile Crisis, actually.

The US let thousands of criminal profiteers come over after the revolution. Hell, they set Batista up with a place to stay on another island. Posada Carilles, that creep with Che Guevara's hair and photos of his corpse, and of course Oliver North and various other evil doers are allowed to walk free here. Not to mention this is one of the more violent and well armed countries in the world. Once again, if I had to choose between a Cuban coke dealer and some guy who likes to blow up Cuban airliners I think I'd live next to the coke dealer. If the US wants Cuban criminals then why should His Excellency not send them? It's the US that's doing a disservice to their people by advertising safe haven for anyone, no matter how evil, so long as they don't like Cuba being a free country.

Oh, I see; you're one of those nutters who believe Carilles and his old pals, the CIA, were involved in the assassination of JFK, eh?

So being non violent and non communist is bad in your opinion? They were not west; they were not east either.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Gandhi once expressed admiration of Hitler.

It nearly got Cuba nuked.

A couple of times, Cuba nearly nuked the US.

Oh please. Then those countries must choose whether they want Cuba or the United States as a trading partner. It’s the United States’ sovereign right to accept who they wish into their boarder and even if they act like a spoiled brat, it is still their right to do so.

True, even though Castro Lonestarr and his sidekick Barf Chavez are even more spoiled than Bush Helmet.

[Cobnat]

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Gandhi once expressed admiration of Hitler.

Source?

[Jordan]

http://history.eserv...obody-knows.txt

Doesn't say Ghandi loved hitler, but he did tell Jews to let the nazi's kill them. Read the entire article if you have time, it's pretty funny how Ghandi actually lived.