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The Iraqi Strategy Problems and Solutions

#121 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 01:45 PM

QUOTE
All the better for the Iranians, then, eh?


Honestly Bond, if all you have is one liners to reply with just go sit at the kiddie table or start condensing, I dunno, five or six of your posts into one so that I can see a paragraph somewhere.

QUOTE
It wasn't a vacation, it was a class. A politics class. Yeah. Ever been to Cuba yourself, Jm? Orrr know any Cubans?


No, have you? I know people who have been to Cuba and they didnt give me any such impression. I think the majority of Cubans are happier with Fidel's government than they would be with what the US would be doing to them.

QUOTE
Any one can go to Cuba. However, not all cubans can leave Cuba. I knew a girl in med school, she was doing a major world tour before she finished her degree. Once you become a doctor in Cuba, you can't leave the country.


Not at all true. Do you know what part of the US treasury service gets the most funding? It's not the part that tracks terrorists bank accounts, it's the part responsible for finding people who traveled to Cuba and fining or incarcerating them. There are student, diplomatic and journalist visas, but to go see family or just visit is illegal unless you sneak out. Cuba on the other hand welcomes Americans. As for the doctors crack, bullshit. Cuban doctors leave their country in droves to practice medicine in other South American countries and help out the rural poor.

QUOTE
We are still talking about the USSR right? What about Eastern Europe? What about the German Uprising? What about the Hungarian Uprising? What about the Czech Uprising? What about Polish Uprising? What about the dictators the USSR supported which would have fallen (and not collectively kill millions) if they didn’t receive USSR support?


Those were basically the USSR and their satellites attacking their own people. Those people proved victorious in the end and so the practice was ended. Compare that with the US who export their brutality and are therefore far more difficult to stop.

QUOTE
Tell me; did the arrangement Mandela make destroy his nation? Did hamper its economy? Isn’t South Africa better off now then it was at the start of his term?


Different systems work for different places. South Africa had tons of British infrastructure. Regardless of its wealth the poor there are still worse off than in Cuba in illiteracy and health care. And let's not forget that Mandela wasn't a socialist. His Excellency is. And to not have socialized Cuba's economy would have allowed American corporations to continue to control the island and allowed America to continue its control. You have to realize that non violent revolution was possible in South Africa and India because the empires controlling them were dying.

QUOTE
Yeah except it might have no ended up like that.


The US had nuclear weapons all over Turkey. The USSR had every right to level the playing field and support their allie. The US began the aggression by placing ICBMs in Turkey, so don't blame Castro or Kruschev.

QUOTE
Since when do you give a smeg about international law? Its against international law for Kosovo to declare independence yet you continue to support that. Its against the law to knowingly fire rockets onto civilians and use civilians as human shields and yet you continue to support Hezbollah. People aren’t supposed to ‘pick’ which laws they like and which they don’t.


It's surely not against international law to secede from a country. And Israel's existence is an affront to justice, as well as a cause of a terrible and continuing genocide. Hizbullah doesn't use human shields nor does Hamas. Gaza and Lebanon are both densely populated and the guerillas have little choice but to fade into the populace or be captured, tortured and imprisoned forever. There are few rocket sites that aren't near homes, and the Zionists have no problem destroying homes and families if they're the wrong color.

QUOTE
angry.gif


I've always supported any Palestinian group that fought Israel, but you know, the scorn of your angry emoticon has made me see the light. I can't argue with those eyebrows. I'm going to change my ways and start sending cluster bombs so the Zionists can blow up a pre school or two. Thanks Bond, this has been a truly moving experience. I think we gotta hug.

QUOTE
JM doesn't support any political or religious acts hezbhollah and the crazy islamic militant groups practice, but the enemy of his enemy is his friend.


Actually as far as Islamic militant groups go, Hamas and Hizbullah are fairly moderate in their views on Sharia. I suppose when you're busy dodging Israeli missiles you dont have time to yell at women for having their ear lobes exposed or whatever. And they're both very active in providing services to the people around them.

Jordan- I believe I already stated I supported the anti-Soviet rebels in Afghanistan as well, who were US supported. I doubt you can categorize that, so here's yours:

A: "White American Christians 4everz lolrofl!!111"

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#122 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 02:17 PM

Hey, I only dislike Hezbollah; Hamas is official, now. wink.gif

As for the Soviets, towards the end of their regime they went a little... funny in the head. At least, until Gorbachev came along, that is.

Now, Cuba? Heck, Bush, Jr. would probably know more about infrastructure than your Fearless Leader does.

It says something about the rulers of Communist nations that the last truly successful Communist powerhouse in the world is China. Not rinky-dink Cuba, mind you; China.

Think that over, will you? dry.gif
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#123 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 03:11 PM

He's right bond, emoticons are gay. If Ned Flanders was a real person, he'd use them alot, you catch my driftarino?

This post has been edited by Jordan: 11 September 2007 - 03:12 PM

Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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#124 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 04:21 PM

JM: You can't just brush off observations you don't like, or shut your ears with a claim of bias. You idealize Cuba, but it's not fair to ignore contradictions to your opinion, especially when you don't have enough information to judge the sources either way. You come off as a closed-minded jerk when you just instantly shoot down everything you don't want to agree with.

Bond: It's an insult to people with IQs above 10 to say that Bush knows more than anyone. He knows about dodging military service, running companies into the ground, and riding his whole life off of his rich daddy. And if he does what Rovey and Cheney say, he gets a piece of candy. As far as China surviving goes, companies outsource to Asia because they can use cheap/slave labor. China is the most populated country in the world, and loves to make itself look a lot better than it is using its tight media control. To make a long story short, there are a whole lot more factors than the head of state that make a country prosper or fall.

Cobnat: Meh. You just like being contrary, and sometimes give some fallicious/straw man arguments, and sometimes have good points, as far as I'm concerned.

Jordan: Ned Flanders wasn't gay. He fathered two children with Maude and after she died, he had a crush and creepy obsession with a female country singer. Howver, I agree that Bond is abusing emoticons. pirate.gif
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#125 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 04:54 PM

Gay as in faggy but not homosexual.
Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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#126 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 05:25 PM

QUOTE (Slade @ Sep 11 2007, 05:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bond: It's an insult to people with IQs above 10 to say that Bush knows more than anyone. He knows about dodging military service, running companies into the ground, and riding his whole life off of his rich daddy. And if he does what Rovey and Cheney say, he gets a piece of candy.


That's the whole point; Castro's IQ of 9 is evident when one studies his horrific facial hair and reliance on overblown, overweight strongmen to back him up (Khrushchev and Chavez, anyone?). wink.gif

QUOTE (Slade @ Sep 11 2007, 05:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As far as China surviving goes, companies outsource to Asia because they can use cheap/slave labor. China is the most populated country in the world, and loves to make itself look a lot better than it is using its tight media control. To make a long story short, there are a whole lot more factors than the head of state that make a country prosper or fall.


Either that, or Mao was smarter than Castro; either way, meh. dry.gif

Cobnat: Meh. You just like being contrary, and sometimes give some fallicious/straw man arguments, and sometimes have good points, as far as I'm concerned.

QUOTE (Slade @ Sep 11 2007, 05:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
However, I agree that Bond is abusing emoticons. pirate.gif


I counter your pirate with a fatal spy! cool.gif
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#127 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 12 September 2007 - 05:19 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Sep 11 2007, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I know people who have been to Cuba and they didnt give me any such impression. I think the majority of Cubans are happier with Fidel's government than they would be with what the US would be doing to them.


Yes but I am sure that none of them have actually had to live in Cuba. I have an idea; perhaps you learn Spanish and then go and live in Cuba for a year or two?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Sep 11 2007, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Those were basically the USSR and their satellites attacking their own people. Those people proved victorious in the end and so the practice was ended. Compare that with the US who export their brutality and are therefore far more difficult to stop.


QUOTE (Cobnat @ Sep 10 2007, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We are still talking about the USSR right? What about Eastern Europe? What about the German Uprising? What about the Hungarian Uprising? What about the Czech Uprising? What about Polish Uprising? What about the dictators the USSR supported which would have fallen (and not collectively kill millions) if they didn’t receive USSR support?


QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Sep 11 2007, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Different systems work for different places. South Africa had tons of British infrastructure. Regardless of its wealth the poor there are still worse off than in Cuba in illiteracy and health care. And let's not forget that Mandela wasn't a socialist. His Excellency is. And to not have socialized Cuba's economy would have allowed American corporations to continue to control the island and allowed America to continue its control.


You’re misunderstanding me. I am not against a communistic economic system (although personally I wouldn’t want to live in a country that has one). I am against Castro treatment of anyone who disagrees with him.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Sep 11 2007, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You have to realize that non violent revolution was possible in South Africa and India because the empires controlling them were dying.


They were dying because of a direct result of the non-violent actions.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Sep 11 2007, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The US had nuclear weapons all over Turkey. The USSR had every right to level the playing field and support their allie. The US began the aggression by placing ICBMs in Turkey, so don't blame Castro or Kruschev.


Castro made the choice of inviting the Soviets and their missiles.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Sep 11 2007, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It's surely not against international law to secede from a country.


The treatment signed at the end of the Kosovo war clearly stated that Kosovo isn’t allowed to become independent under any circumstance. Every member of NATO signed the treatment and so did the leaders of the KLA and the Yugoslav government.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Sep 11 2007, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
the Zionists have no problem destroying homes and families if they're the wrong color.


I know its easy to think of the Israelis as white Christians but I have a startling revelation! They are in fact dark-skinned Jews!
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#128 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 01:30 PM

Bond- Having a beard does not lower one's IQ, nor does getting help from people who are able to aid you. As for not being as smart as Bush, if Bush had been in Castro's place he'd have invaded America after the bay of pigs to find the culprits, then got distracted by a shiney object and decided to invade Canada too.

QUOTE
Either that, or Mao was smarter than Castro; either way, meh.


The success of a country hasn't got much to do with a leader's intellect. Inversely a leader's intellect alone can't make a country successful. Otherwise we'd just put Stephen Hawking in charge and then rule the world.

QUOTE
Yes but I am sure that none of them have actually had to live in Cuba. I have an idea; perhaps you learn Spanish and then go and live in Cuba for a year or two?


Ah I love that argument when it comes to Cuba. I do intend to do that eventually but not for the purposes of impressing the likes of you. As such my response shall be this: If you think outer space is so great, go become an astronaut and spend a year or two on the international space station.

QUOTE
I am against Castro treatment of anyone who disagrees with him.


The people of Cuba are in a state of war against the US and Cuban traitors. Sacrifices have to be made in a war to maintain ones independence. But Cuba did not initiate this war, so they do not take the blame. The US government has plenty of political prisoners too, and many of them are treated far worse than in Cuba. Even that loonie site you posted with Che Guevara's picture as the grim reaper didn't claim the revolutionaries had tortured anyone. So the worst you have is that during the war he killed his enemies, and that he imprisons people who work with foreign governments to overthrow him.

You have yet to state how this transfer to democracy will come to be with a bloodthirsty, aggressive, vegeful and powerful regime just next door waiting to pounce and devour any vestige of Cuban sovereignty. Care to explain?

QUOTE
They were dying because of a direct result of the non-violent actions.


Oh yeah, the British empire toppled because Gandhi marched to the sea and made salt. What fucking planet do you live on? Did you completely forget about the simple matter of two world wars? Peaceful resistance can fell a week oligarchy, but a current and building imperial power? Not bloody likely. A Budhist monk might have lit himself on fire to protest the Vietnam war, but what really won Vietnam for the freedom fighters was the brave men who gave their lives during the Tet offensive to show that imperialists weren't safe anywhere.

QUOTE
The treatment signed at the end of the Kosovo war clearly stated that Kosovo isn’t allowed to become independent under any circumstance. Every member of NATO signed the treatment and so did the leaders of the KLA and the Yugoslav government.


Treaties can be changed when necessary, especially when it becomes necessary due to the will of the people. And the will of the people says Kosovo should be free, and Cuba should be able to trade with whoever they like.

QUOTE
I know its easy to think of the Israelis as white Christians but I have a startling revelation! They are in fact dark-skinned Jews!


The Palestinians are a race apart from Israelis. The Israeli expulsion from their land, the formation of settlements, constant bombing, collective destruction of homes and businesses, ammounts to a campaign of genocide based on race and religion.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 13 September 2007 - 01:35 PM

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#129 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 13 September 2007 - 09:36 PM

JM
Ah I love that argument when it comes to Cuba. I do intend to do that eventually but not for the purposes of impressing the likes of you. As such my response shall be this: If you think outer space is so great, go become an astronaut and spend a year or two on the international space station.

Cobnat
I never liked space; no do I think that one part of this planet is a utopia like you seem to do. Also; could you care to explain what you mean by “the likes of you”?

JM
The people of Cuba are in a state of war against the US and Cuban traitors.

Cobnat
Cuban traitors? Has it that when someone opposed Batista then they are not a traitor but when they oppose Castro then they are a traitor? Me thinks this smells of double standards.

JM
Sacrifices have to be made in a war to maintain ones independence.

Cobnat
Yes, as they say; laws are silent in times of war.

JM
But Cuba did not initiate this war, so they do not take the blame.

Cobnat
Cuba? You speak as though Castro represents Cuba. Since he wasn’t elected I doubt people actually want him to be their leader.

JM
The US government has plenty of political prisoners too, and many of them are treated far worse than in Cuba. Even that loonie site you posted with Che Guevara's picture as the grim reaper didn't claim the revolutionaries had tortured anyone. So the worst you have is that during the war he killed his enemies, and that he imprisons people who work with foreign governments to overthrow him.

Cobnat
Students who protest against the Cuban government are agents of the United States and counterrevolutionary!

JM
You have yet to state how this transfer to democracy will come to be with a bloodthirsty, aggressive, vegeful and powerful regime just next door waiting to pounce and devour any vestige of Cuban sovereignty. Care to explain?

Cobnat
Your telling me that no country in South and Central America have any sovereignty?

JM
Oh yeah, the British empire toppled because Gandhi marched to the sea and made salt. What fucking planet do you live on? Did you completely forget about the simple matter of two world wars? Peaceful resistance can fell a week oligarchy, but a current and building imperial power?

Cobnat
(The empire is strong but is getting weaker)

Gandhi’s tactics meant that other countries (other then Britain) had no moral problems with supporting Gandhi cause. Also it should be noted that Gandhi and several of his colleges made it so that India was not be dependent on the British (or anyone else for that matter). As for Mandela; the peaceful tactics made it so that almost everyone put a trade embargo on the South African government and made certain that the government would fall. The government was able to keep going because of the many diamond mines the country has.

JM
Not bloody likely. A Budhist monk might have lit himself on fire to protest the Vietnam war, but what really won Vietnam for the freedom fighters was the brave men who gave their lives during the Tet offensive to show that imperialists weren't safe anywhere.

Cobnat
Don’t forget the woman and children the Vietcong used as suicide bombers. I think they deserve some credit too.

JM
Treaties can be changed when necessary, especially when it becomes necessary due to the will of the people.

Cobnat
And how would one know the will of the people will out a referendum? Surely one can only speculate without calling for a referendum? (*wink* Cuba)

JM
And the will of the people says Kosovo should be free,

Cobnat
And the will of the people says Republika Srpska (Bosnian Serb entity of Bosnia) should be free.

JM
and Cuba should be able to trade with whoever they like.

Cobnat
They can. Its America that is being picky. I don’t see what the big problem is; American products tend to be shit, so naturally wouldn’t people want to trade with Cuba? Unless Cuban products are shit too. Plus you have Venezuela which is loyal to the Cuban government and they have all the oil you can possibly wish.

JM
The Palestinians are a race apart from Israelis. The Israeli expulsion from their land, the formation of settlements, constant bombing, collective destruction of homes and businesses, ammounts to a campaign of genocide based on race and religion.

Cobnat
Do you honestly believe that Israelis are not Arab Jews? What else can they possibly be? I am not going to get into an argument with you about Israel because I think its stupid that the Jews their homeland to be in a place where everyone wants to gut them. They should have picked a place in Germany (Germans wouldn’t complain). Plus Israel is a militaristic regime so yeah…

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 13 September 2007 - 09:48 PM

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#130 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 06 October 2007 - 11:11 PM

Forgive the late reply, I thought you were providing a random assortment of quotations from past posts rather than rebutting my arguments. So, here goes:

QUOTE
I never liked space; no do I think that one part of this planet is a utopia like you seem to do. Also; could you care to explain what you mean by “the likes of you”?


Why don't you like the freezing vacuum of outer space so much? You've never been there. Also, no.

QUOTE
Cuban traitors? Has it that when someone opposed Batista then they are not a traitor but when they oppose Castro then they are a traitor? Me thinks this smells of double standards.


Treachery to me involves selling out your country to foreign prurient interests. His Excellency overthrew Cuba for Cuba, and was hounded in Mexico while trying to do it. He recieved no foreign support for his revolution. The traitors and terrorists in Miami are bankrolled in the millions by Washington.

QUOTE
Cuba? You speak as though Castro represents Cuba. Since he wasn’t elected I doubt people actually want him to be their leader.


Thousands of people died or were tortured to elect His Excellency. Tens of thousands risked their lives. People bled, and that is their ballot. Your clinging to the idea that he lacks a mandate simply because he wasnt chosen by the flawed and silly system of government you happen to support is nonsense. Being elected and governing by the will of the people do not always coincide.

QUOTE
Your telling me that no country in South and Central America have any sovereignty?


Don't change the subject. How is it that a former colony of the US, where the US is spending 4 million a year to destroy Cuban sovereignty, how is it that a democratic system can work there? You provided a random and falacious example, but once again here's a pertinent one:

Daniel Ortega fought CIA backed mass murderers for years before finally winning in Nicaragua. The CIA backed war left 10000 dead and when Ortega finally won he held an election. The CIA and American government poured in money against him and Ortega lost. How is it you propose that will not happen in Cuba, or are you ready to admit that this is exactly what you and every other supposed champion of democracy actually wants for Cuba?

QUOTE
Gandhi’s tactics meant that other countries (other then Britain) had no moral problems with supporting Gandhi cause. Also it should be noted that Gandhi and several of his colleges made it so that India was not be dependent on the British (or anyone else for that matter). As for Mandela; the peaceful tactics made it so that almost everyone put a trade embargo on the South African government and made certain that the government would fall. The government was able to keep going because of the many diamond mines the country has.


International support does not matter. Lots of people in India tried to get rid of the British Raj, Gandhi just happened to be the most organized. The desire for independence was like a landslide with many rocks tumbling to an obvious conclusion, and Gandhi just happened to be at the head of it. Before him plenty of people attacked the British, and if they'd succeeded it would have been just as well.

Mandela's tactics worked once again because the anti-african genocide was in its closing stages and had just been mostly ended legislatively in the US. Mandela took on an ailing system and won.

These are two examples that are held out to pacify(no pun intended) the weak minded. Two imperialist states were felled peacefully, but most were not. The same people who violently kicked England out of the colonies are now saying that people in a similiar situation should be peaceful? Bullshit.

I'm quite proud to renounce any pacifist leanings I previously had. Pacifism is a tool of the imperialists and will not cause any real change. Non violent civil disobedience is but a tool of the revolutionary movement, to be used to jam the gears of the imperialist machine, but the final blow to that machine must more often than not be delivered by a swift strike from a hammer.

Anti government efforts should start out as pacifist, but when the time comes to rise up in the face of brutality and repression, that's when the mettle of the leaders is tested. A good leader would do whatever was necessary to gain freedom and not cling to antiquated ideology.

And might I add that talk of pacifism and democracy seems tremendously hollow coming from you.

QUOTE
Don’t forget the woman and children the Vietcong used as suicide bombers. I think they deserve some credit too.


Oh of course, just like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, the Cong "made" people become suicide bombers. Suicide bombing is pure and simple a side effect of imperialism and genocide. But yes, anyone who used such tactics to get the US out of Vietnam surely has my gratitude for their sacrifices.

QUOTE
And how would one know the will of the people will out a referendum? Surely one can only speculate without calling for a referendum? (*wink* Cuba)


Referendums were held in Kosovo. And if a referendum were held and most Cubans wanted to return to being slaves to the empire, it would only be because the US has made life unbearable in Cuba through the blockade, terrorism, invasion attempts and provoking the government to react. It would be the same as if I threatened to shoot someone if they didnt sell themselves into slavery, and then claimed the sale was legitimate. Decisions made under such duress are illegitimate. Democracy cannot exist under threat from a nation like the US.

QUOTE
American products tend to be shit, so naturally wouldn’t people want to trade with Cuba? Unless Cuban products are shit too. Plus you have Venezuela which is loyal to the Cuban government and they have all the oil you can possibly wish.


Your understanding of economics is sorely lacking, as is your comprehension of what I pointed out earlier. The US forbids the vessels of other countries from docking in Cuban ports. Thus any vessel that wishes to trade with the massive US market cannot go to Cuba.

To make a comparison in US law, look at the anti trust cases. Microsoft wouldnt work with certain companies if they provided Netscape. This was illegal. Microsoft wasn't forcing those companies not to provide Netscape, but it was using its superior economic muscle to wrongfully manipulate the market and deprive people of something. What the US is doing is on a far greater scale and far more evil.

QUOTE
Do you honestly believe that Israelis are not Arab Jews? What else can they possibly be? I am not going to get into an argument with you about Israel because I think its stupid that the Jews their homeland to be in a place where everyone wants to gut them. They should have picked a place in Germany (Germans wouldn’t complain). Plus Israel is a militaristic regime so yeah…


Do you honestly believe that German Jews had that much of a different lineage? It doesnt matter what I think, nor what logic dictates. In the mind of someone intent on genocide as the Israeli government is, all that matters is that they percieve their victims as different and inferior.

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#131 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 11:00 PM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 6 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why don't you like the freezing vacuum of outer space so much? You've never been there. Also, no.
Treachery to me involves selling out your country to foreign prurient interests. His Excellency overthrew Cuba for Cuba, and was hounded in Mexico while trying to do it. He recieved no foreign support for his revolution. The traitors and terrorists in Miami are bankrolled in the millions by Washington.


When Batista made a regime change in Cuba, he was not supported by the Americans.
When Batista came into power he was supported by the Americans.
When Castro made a regime change in Cuba, he was not supported by the Soviets.
When Castro came into power he was supported by the Soviets.

Damn, there sure is a big difference between the two.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 6 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thousands of people died or were tortured to elect His Excellency. Tens of thousands risked their lives. People bled, and that is their ballot. Your clinging to the idea that he lacks a mandate simply because he wasnt chosen by the flawed and silly system of government you happen to support is nonsense. Being elected and governing by the will of the people do not always coincide.


Perhaps the people supported him while the revolution was still fresh but do they support him now, 40 years later? Also you don’t seem to think that do process of law matters at all, so why do you hold the U.N in any regard?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 6 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Don't change the subject. How is it that a former colony of the US, where the US is spending 4 million a year to destroy Cuban sovereignty, how is it that a democratic system can work there? You provided a random and falacious example, but once again here's a pertinent one:


I’m not for democracy in Cuba. I am against Castro’s troops attacking and caging people for protesting the laws against freedom of speech. I am just saying that if the people of Cuba want democracy then they should have it, right? Though you should remember that there was no serious trouble in Kosovo before the CIA trained KLA started committing terrorist acts in 1998. Before you start dishing out crap about Milosevic keep in mind that the NVA under Ho Chi committed horrendous acts against its Montagnard minority including ‘ethnic cleansing’ and was one of the ‘reasons’ for the war in Southeast Asia.

Wherever America’s presence is felt, it is usually felt in the same way.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 6 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Daniel Ortega fought CIA backed mass murderers for years before finally winning in Nicaragua. The CIA backed war left 10000 dead and when Ortega finally won he held an election. The CIA and American government poured in money against him and Ortega lost. How is it you propose that will not happen in Cuba, or are you ready to admit that this is exactly what you and every other supposed champion of democracy actually wants for Cuba?
International support does not matter. Lots of people in India tried to get rid of the British Raj, Gandhi just happened to be the most organized. The desire for independence was like a landslide with many rocks tumbling to an obvious conclusion, and Gandhi just happened to be at the head of it. Before him plenty of people attacked the British, and if they'd succeeded it would have been just as well.
Mandela's tactics worked once again because the anti-african genocide was in its closing stages and had just been mostly ended legislatively in the US. Mandela took on an ailing system and won.
These are two examples that are held out to pacify(no pun intended) the weak minded. Two imperialist states were felled peacefully, but most were not. The same people who violently kicked England out of the colonies are now saying that people in a similiar situation should be peaceful? Bullshit.
I'm quite proud to renounce any pacifist leanings I previously had. Pacifism is a tool of the imperialists and will not cause any real change. Non violent civil disobedience is but a tool of the revolutionary movement, to be used to jam the gears of the imperialist machine, but the final blow to that machine must more often than not be delivered by a swift strike from a hammer.
Anti government efforts should start out as pacifist, but when the time comes to rise up in the face of brutality and repression, that's when the mettle of the leaders is tested. A good leader would do whatever was necessary to gain freedom and not cling to antiquated ideology.


The goal of a group matters little if at all. For instance, read the RUF Manifesto:

http://www.sierra-le.../footpaths.html

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 6 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And might I add that talk of pacifism and democracy seems tremendously hollow coming from you.


And I think that talk of national sovereignty is tremendously hollow coming from you.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 6 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh of course, just like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, the Cong "made" people become suicide bombers. Suicide bombing is pure and simple a side effect of imperialism and genocide. But yes, anyone who used such tactics to get the US out of Vietnam surely has my gratitude for their sacrifices.


So you support using children as suicide bombers and soldiers in the name of national liberation? Means justify the ends?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 6 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Referendums were held in Kosovo.


Right. You have no idea what is happening in Kosovo right now or what happened there do you? From the mid 1970s to the early 1990s every single person in Serbia payed a 10% income tax to subsidise Kosovo. All the public schools and hospitals in Kosovo was payed by Serbia. All this despite Albanian separatists constantly sabotaging local power plants and construction sites in the name of national liberation. Since the NATO occupation of Kosovo, Kosovo is no longer a functioning state with billions of dollars in aid going to local mafia bosses and the like. If Kosovo does become independent then it will not be able to survive on its own if NATO leaves and even if it doesn’t leave, the certain trade embargo Serbia will enforce on Kosovo and the portioning of the northern (Serbian dominated) part will cause severe economic hardships for the people of Kosovo. Serbia is offering Kosovo great autonomy, economic hardship in the name of national liberation is simply not worth it and if Kosovo does become independent then the Republic of Srpska will no doubt become independent. Of course if you do support Kosovo becoming independent then you support the Republic of Srpska becoming independent, right? Though don’t get me started on what the independence of Srpska would do for Bosnia’s economy.

For more info visit http://www.kosovocom...em/home/en.html and become a bit more educated on the subject.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 6 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And if a referendum were held and most Cubans wanted to return to being slaves to the empire, it would only be because the US has made life unbearable in Cuba through the blockade, terrorism, invasion attempts and provoking the government to react. It would be the same as if I threatened to shoot someone if they didnt sell themselves into slavery, and then claimed the sale was legitimate. Decisions made under such duress are illegitimate. Democracy cannot exist under threat from a nation like the US.


I see. So the people of Kosovo and Serbia are slaves for America at the moment? So you support Serbia’s actions in 1999 to insure that CIA guerrillas did not turn Serbia or Kosovo into an American puppet state?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 6 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Your understanding of economics is sorely lacking, as is your comprehension of what I pointed out earlier. The US forbids the vessels of other countries from docking in Cuban ports. Thus any vessel that wishes to trade with the massive US market cannot go to Cuba.
To make a comparison in US law, look at the anti trust cases. Microsoft wouldnt work with certain companies if they provided Netscape. This was illegal. Microsoft wasn't forcing those companies not to provide Netscape, but it was using its superior economic muscle to wrongfully manipulate the market and deprive people of something. What the US is doing is on a far greater scale and far more evil.
Do you honestly believe that German Jews had that much of a different lineage? It doesnt matter what I think, nor what logic dictates. In the mind of someone intent on genocide as the Israeli government is, all that matters is that they percieve their victims as different and inferior.


Cuba has existed 40 years without American trade, forgive my lack of “understanding of economics” but it seems that Cuba is no longer dependent on America or will ever be. Though I cannot understand how you think Rome was a good thing for building infrastructure and yet you think America is bad for doing the exact same thing.
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#132 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 13 October 2007 - 11:11 PM

QUOTE
When Batista made a regime change in Cuba, he was not supported by the Americans.
When Batista came into power he was supported by the Americans.
When Castro made a regime change in Cuba, he was not supported by the Soviets.
When Castro came into power he was supported by the Soviets.

Damn, there sure is a big difference between the two.


Batista's rise to power was supported by the US. He took out a man named Prio who was actually democraticly elected and had been considering granting more rights to Cubans. Batista took over from Prio on March 10. On March 27 the president of the United States recognized his government. 2 weeks after a violent coup against an elected leader the president was vouching for this guy. That doesnt happen overnight. Also, Batista lived luxuriously in the US for some time, even while holding a seat in the Cuban senate.

Compare that to Fidel Castro. After trying to overthrow Batista's regime once he was beaten, imprisoned, put in solitary confinement, endured numerous assassination attempts and finally exiled to Mexico where the Mexican government hunted him. He eventaully went back to Cuba, was hunted some more and then finally victorious. It took the USSR about 2 years to decide to fully support and recognize his government. Not 2 weeks.

QUOTE
Also you don’t seem to think that do process of law matters at all, so why do you hold the U.N in any regard?


His Excellency rules by the Cuban constitution, IE the law.

So your main problem with His Excellency is that sometimes people who protest against him get locked up? Woopety fucking shit, Cobnat. When people protested against Batista and the Americans they fucking disappeared. If you want Cuba to be more democratic start writing to senators and tell them to stop fucking with Cuba, or maybe just shoot a few crazy asses in Miami.

QUOTE
So you support using children as suicide bombers and soldiers in the name of national liberation? Means justify the ends?


Using? Hey, if someones parents were just blown up by a US artillery shell, and they feel like taking as many imperialists with them as possible, that's not using. That's personal revenge. The US creates the conditions that produce suicide bombers.

QUOTE
BlahblahKosovoomfg


So what is your answer? That Serbia should go back in and take over? I'm really not very passionate on the subject so if you have any ideas let's hear them.

QUOTE
Cuba has existed 40 years without American trade, forgive my lack of “understanding of economics” but it seems that Cuba is no longer dependent on America or will ever be.


No its not dependant on America, but the largest economic power in the world is determined to fuck with Cuba's economy and, now that the USSR is no longer making up the difference, of course Cuba is in trouble. The fact that Cuba continues to exist despite the US blockade does not make the blockade moral or harmless.

QUOTE
I cannot understand how you think Rome was a good thing for building infrastructure and yet you think America is bad for doing the exact same thing.


JM: American should stop blockading Cuba

Cobnat: America builds infrastructure! Huzzah for non sequiters!

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 13 October 2007 - 11:13 PM

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
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#133 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 14 October 2007 - 05:00 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 13 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Batista's rise to power was supported by the US. He took out a man named Prio who was actually democraticly elected and had been considering granting more rights to Cubans. Batista took over from Prio on March 10. On March 27 the president of the United States recognized his government. 2 weeks after a violent coup against an elected leader the president was vouching for this guy. That doesnt happen overnight. Also, Batista lived luxuriously in the US for some time, even while holding a seat in the Cuban senate.


They were both supported nonetheless and they both sold out their nation.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 13 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Compare that to Fidel Castro. After trying to overthrow Batista's regime once he was beaten, imprisoned, put in solitary confinement, endured numerous assassination attempts and finally exiled to Mexico where the Mexican government hunted him. He eventaully went back to Cuba, was hunted some more and then finally victorious. It took the USSR about 2 years to decide to fully support and recognize his government. Not 2 weeks.


Castro under Batista can be compared to hundreds if not thousands of students and human rights activists in jails in Cuba at the moment. Castro has become what he was fighting against, a cold blooded tyrant.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 13 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
His Excellency rules by the Cuban constitution, IE the law.


So you don’t give a rats arse about what the Cuban people want? You just care that Castro has power? And as long as he has power he is right?

I think I heard this somewhere before, oh yeah: might makes right.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 13 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So your main problem with His Excellency is that sometimes people who protest against him get locked up? Woopety fucking shit, Cobnat. When people protested against Batista and the Americans they fucking disappeared. If you want Cuba to be more democratic start writing to senators and tell them to stop fucking with Cuba, or maybe just shoot a few crazy asses in Miami.


Who gives a shit what some regime did 50 years ago? Are you saying that Castro deserves to do evil unto the Cuban population because his predecessor did the same? I certainly wouldn’t want you to be in charge of human rights anywhere in the world.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 13 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Using? Hey, if someones parents were just blown up by a US artillery shell, and they feel like taking as many imperialists with them as possible, that's not using. That's personal revenge. The US creates the conditions that produce suicide bombers.


Yeah, because six year old children are full of hate and revenge.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 13 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So what is your answer? That Serbia should go back in and take over? I'm really not very passionate on the subject so if you have any ideas let's hear them.


My point was that you are a hypocrite by supporting the actions of U.S (and CIA trained) allies in the Balkans and yet condemn them in other places around the world. Reread what I wrote on the matter.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 13 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No its not dependant on America, but the largest economic power in the world is determined to fuck with Cuba's economy and, now that the USSR is no longer making up the difference, of course Cuba is in trouble. The fact that Cuba continues to exist despite the US blockade does not make the blockade moral or harmless.


It means that Cuba is not reliant on the U.S economically and thus politically.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 13 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
JM: American should stop blockading Cuba

Cobnat: America builds infrastructure! Huzzah for non sequiters!


Again, you supported the idea of Rome and yet you hate the idea of America. They are one and the same in theory and practise. I find it interesting how many of your opinions are in conflict with one another.
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#134 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 02:54 AM

QUOTE
They were both supported nonetheless and they both sold out their nation.


His Excellency used the government to better the lives of his people. Peasants can read and write, get medical care, and have rights at their jobs. If anyone who allied with either side during the cold war is a sell out, that pretty much dubs everyone in the world a sellout.

QUOTE
Castro under Batista can be compared to hundreds if not thousands of students and human rights activists in jails in Cuba at the moment. Castro has become what he was fighting against, a cold blooded tyrant.


And if His Excellency wasn't in power and a US backed ruler was there? Those hundreds or thousands of activists? They wouldnt be in jail. People would be picking pieces of them out of some fucking swamp.

QUOTE
Are you saying that Castro deserves to do evil unto the Cuban population because his predecessor did the same?


No I'm saying Cuba is under an imminent and direct threat and therefore some crackdowns are to be expected. During world war 2 the US imprisoned thousands of innocent Japanese people even though there was no credible threat. His excellency, in contrast, has only imprisoned people plotting against his government. If the US wasn't maintaining hostilities against Cuba it wouldnt be long before those people were free.

As for ytour children revenge comment, I havent heard of any instances of kids being used as suicide bombers. A teenage Palestinian girl died to try to blow up some storm troopers, but that was because her parents were killed by the aforesaid pigs and they bloody well had it coming.

QUOTE
My point was that you are a hypocrite by supporting the actions of U.S (and CIA trained) allies in the Balkans and yet condemn them in other places around the world.


Osama Bin Laden was a CIA trained US allie. There's a difference in conviction between an OBL who fights in Afghanistan and uses the US, or an Albanian who fights there and uses the US, and then of course you have people like Chalabi who gave false intelligence about Iraq while living in the US, or the Cuban exiles who push for war against their country while living the good life in Miami.

QUOTE
It means that Cuba is not reliant on the U.S economically and thus politically.


Hey, I can cut off your leg and you'll still survive. That doesnt mean I haven't crippled you. Just because Cuba isn't reliant on the US doesnt mean the illegal blockade doesnt cause intense suffering. And if, as you admit, Cuba is doing well enough with the blockade in place, why keep it there if it's not stopping the Cuban government? Isn't that rather vindictive?

QUOTE
Again, you supported the idea of Rome and yet you hate the idea of America. They are one and the same in theory and practise. I find it interesting how many of your opinions are in conflict with one another.


Rome built infrastructure. America blew up Vietnam, Panama, Nicaragua, Chile, Afghanistan (eighties) and various other places and never built anything there. It's a lot like the Roman empire only instead of conquest there's just random war without end, and instead of building infrastructure in conquered lands there's just... well... random war without end.

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I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
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#135 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 16 October 2007 - 04:18 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 15 2007, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
His Excellency used the government to better the lives of his people. Peasants can read and write, get medical care, and have rights at their jobs.


At least all the sick people with jobs can benefit from Castro’s government.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 15 2007, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If anyone who allied with either side during the cold war is a sell out, that pretty much dubs everyone in the world a sellout.


So you understand now how hypocritical it is to call Batista a sell-out while not calling a Castro a sell-out?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 15 2007, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
And if His Excellency wasn't in power and a US backed ruler was there? Those hundreds or thousands of activists? They wouldnt be in jail. People would be picking pieces of them out of some fucking swamp.


India… South Africa…

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 15 2007, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No I'm saying Cuba is under an imminent and direct threat and therefore some crackdowns are to be expected. During world war 2 the US imprisoned thousands of innocent Japanese people even though there was no credible threat. His excellency, in contrast, has only imprisoned people plotting against his government. If the US wasn't maintaining hostilities against Cuba it wouldnt be long before those people were free.


So what you’re telling me is that because the Empire is evil, everyone should be evil? I mean where do we draw the line at that?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 15 2007, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for ytour children revenge comment, I havent heard of any instances of kids being used as suicide bombers. A teenage Palestinian girl died to try to blow up some storm troopers, but that was because her parents were killed by the aforesaid pigs and they bloody well had it coming.


In Vietnam, a suicide bomber was a person holding a grenade. The Vietcong used children as bombers in order to diminish troop morale among the Americans, it worked. Now before you start, keep in mind that just because one side commits atrocities does not mean the other side does not commit atrocities.

Let me just say, it does not matter which side wins in a war, the people lose. You cannot name me one war without atrocities, which is why declaring war is against the Geneva Convention.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 15 2007, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Osama Bin Laden was a CIA trained US allie. There's a difference in conviction between an OBL who fights in Afghanistan and uses the US, or an Albanian who fights there and uses the US, and then of course you have people like Chalabi who gave false intelligence about Iraq while living in the US, or the Cuban exiles who push for war against their country while living the good life in Miami.


Ah, so you believe a billionaire and drug dealers live a harsh live while Cubans in Miami, just because they are anti-Castro, live in luxury? What makes you so sure that anti-Castro Cubans are not just using the U.S?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 15 2007, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hey, I can cut off your leg and you'll still survive. That doesnt mean I haven't crippled you. Just because Cuba isn't reliant on the US doesnt mean the illegal blockade doesnt cause intense suffering. And if, as you admit, Cuba is doing well enough with the blockade in place, why keep it there if it's not stopping the Cuban government? Isn't that rather vindictive?


Cuba has survived 50 years under constant trade embargo. Surviving despite Castro driving the economy into the group since the 80s. Surviving while supporting groups in the Americas and Africa. Simply surviving. It seems to me that Cubans need not America. Now just because a country is surviving doesn’t mean it is doing well, people are starving, there is high unemployment and thus no pay checks. If anyone complains about lack of food then they get either thrown in jail, put under house arrest or shot, their fate depends on how well known they are.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Oct 15 2007, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Rome built infrastructure. America blew up Vietnam, Panama, Nicaragua, Chile, Afghanistan (eighties) and various other places and never built anything there. It's a lot like the Roman empire only instead of conquest there's just random war without end, and instead of building infrastructure in conquered lands there's just... well... random war without end.


Yeah, I am sure that the people of Carthage are glad that Rome came along to set them straight. I mean Gaul. I mean Germanica. I mean the religious minorities in Rome. I mean one of those other nameless tribes and groups the Romans essentially wiped out. But it doesn’t matter what horrible things the Romans did, its all worth it in the name of progress and modernization.
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