[J m HofMarN]

USSR is the lesser of two evils? I guess the millions in the Gulags would disagree but since when has that changed the mind of communists like you.

A government that kills its own people is easier to deal with than a government that ravages around the world killing other people. Those foreign governments, unless they happen to be semi superpowers, have no chance of reprisal against their assailants. The people of the USSR could and did overthrow their government. And that was their responsibility. The problem in the US is the government here exports cruelty and malevolence, and the people in the country rarely see it, so there's no incentive for revolution or justice. While at the same time innocent people get slaughtered half a world away, and the system will continue until that slaughter hits home and people get motivated.

What I am after? I want Cuba to be a place where you can speak your mind without getting locked up and tortured. I want Cuba to be a place where the people can choose their leaders instead of being left with an old smeg who has driven his country’s economy (and society) into the ground. Although; I guess that is ‘counterrevolutionary’ and so it would explain why you bunch would be against it. As for national sovereignty; I think it is ironic that you (a communist) are talking about a country being independent when the ideals of Marx are strictly against nationalism.

Beautiful sentiments. I can picture you humming the national anthem while you type that. How do you propose that any of this happen while you have an evil superpower ninety miles away pouring literally millions into efforts to subvert democracy and bribe officials? And when are you going to admit that under His Excellency the common person in Cuba has seen more improvements than they ever did under US domination? I want Cuba to be able to have democratic elections as well, but only when the US ceases funding groups there and promises not to interfere militarily or economicly with the choices of the Cuban people as they did in Nicaragua.

So being non violent and non communist is bad in your opinion? They were not west; they were not east either.

I never said it was bad, simply that that was the reason the US didn't crush them. What is bad to me is that if Gandhi or Mandella had wanted to nationalize industries or been friendly to the USSR they would both have been offed by US intelligence. That's what's bad.

It nearly got Cuba nuked.

And do you know the side effect of that? Kruschev made the US promise not to ever invade Cuba again if the Soviets took the nukes out. That's the only reason Cuba hasn't been invaded again. Of course you'd naturally have a problem with that.

Oh please. Then those countries must choose whether they want Cuba or the United States as a trading partner. It’s the United States’ sovereign right to accept who they wish into their boarder and even if they act like a spoiled brat, it is still their right to do so.

That's no choice. It's either do the ethical thing (which a 170-4 majority in the UN General assembly voted for) and trade with Cuba while your people starve since the US won't trade with you, or trade with the US and submit to their blockade. The US is operating in defiance of UN resolutions and you continue to make Cuba out to be evil.

That might have avoided the Cuban Missile Crisis, actually.

So would a cessation of American hostilities against Cuba.

Oh, I see; you're one of those nutters who believe Carilles and his old pals, the CIA, were involved in the assassination of JFK, eh?

Adorable. You think I give a damn about Kennedy? He was the leader of the pig empire. If there were a few more Lee Harvey Oswalds about the world would be a better place. Carilles can kill as many presidents as he wants. My problem is that he blew up a plane carrying Cuba's olympic fencing team for no good reason.

True, even though Castro Lonestarr and his sidekick Barf Chavez are even more spoiled than Bush Helmet.

I feel less intelligent just for having read this.

[Spoon Poetic]

I actually just heard from an old friend that spent the summer in Cuba. He met lots of locals, and tried to get many of them to talk politics. Some of them would tell him in hushed tones that they were hoping to get out of the country ASAP, but many wouldn't talk - they'd either glare at him and not talk to him again, or say something like, "you want to get me killed?" Only a couple of people were happy to praise Castro, and those two were very well-to-do.

And I must say, I disagree that a government that kills its own people is better than a government that kills peoples of other nations. I think that's pretty absurd, actually. That's near to saying, it's better to kill your own children than someone else's. I see no "better" in either case.

(And Jm, your signature makes me sad. It's not like SC had a good reputation in the first place... Sigh. We're not all that bad, I promise! )

[J m HofMarN]

That's how your friend spent his vacation in Cuba? Conducting surveys about the government? It sounds a bit suspicious to me but hey, it's a first hand account representing, what, ten people in Cuba? I'm not really going to worry about it.

And I must say, I disagree that a government that kills its own people is better than a government that kills peoples of other nations.

It's incompetence, that's what it is. And an incompetent evil is better than a strong and competent one. That's why I'm glad Dubya was leading us in this war, because if that scoundrel Reagan were in charge we'd own Iraq by now and Ahmadindejad would probably be dead.

[Bond]

It's incompetence, that's what it is. And an incompetent evil is better than a strong and competent one. That's why I'm glad Dubya was leading us in this war, because if that scoundrel Reagan were in charge we'd own Iraq by now and Ahmadindejad would probably be dead.

All the better for the Iranians, then, eh?

[Spoon Poetic]

It wasn't a vacation, it was a class. A politics class. Yeah. Ever been to Cuba yourself, Jm? Orrr know any Cubans?

More parts of the trip/class involved seeing the living conditions, studying the politics and history, etc.

[Bond]

I'm sorry, I though you couldn't go to Cuba... or is it only Americans?

[Jordan]

Any one can go to Cuba. However, not all cubans can leave Cuba. I knew a girl in med school, she was doing a major world tour before she finished her degree. Once you become a doctor in Cuba, you can't leave the country.

[Cobnat]

A government that kills its own people is easier to deal with than a government that ravages around the world killing other people. Those foreign governments, unless they happen to be semi superpowers, have no chance of reprisal against their assailants. The people of the USSR could and did overthrow their government. And that was their responsibility. The problem in the US is the government here exports cruelty and malevolence, and the people in the country rarely see it, so there's no incentive for revolution or justice. While at the same time innocent people get slaughtered half a world away, and the system will continue until that slaughter hits home and people get motivated.

We are still talking about the USSR right? What about Eastern Europe? What about the German Uprising? What about the Hungarian Uprising? What about the Czech Uprising? What about Polish Uprising? What about the dictators the USSR supported which would have fallen (and not collectively kill millions) if they didn’t receive USSR support?

As far as I am concerned the only difference between the USA and the USSR is three letters.

Beautiful sentiments. I can picture you humming the national anthem while you type that. How do you propose that any of this happen while you have an evil superpower ninety miles away pouring literally millions into efforts to subvert democracy and bribe officials? And when are you going to admit that under His Excellency the common person in Cuba has seen more improvements than they ever did under US domination? I want Cuba to be able to have democratic elections as well, but only when the US ceases funding groups there and promises not to interfere militarily or economicly with the choices of the Cuban people as they did in Nicaragua.

Look below.

I never said it was bad, simply that that was the reason the US didn't crush them. What is bad to me is that if Gandhi or Mandella had wanted to nationalize industries or been friendly to the USSR they would both have been offed by US intelligence. That's what's bad.

Tell me; did the arrangement Mandela make destroy his nation? Did hamper its economy? Isn’t South Africa better off now then it was at the start of his term?

And do you know the side effect of that? Kruschev made the US promise not to ever invade Cuba again if the Soviets took the nukes out. That's the only reason Cuba hasn't been invaded again. Of course you'd naturally have a problem with that.

Yeah except it might have no ended up like that. No person has ever taken the same gamble since the CMC and I doubt they ever will.

That's no choice. It's either do the ethical thing (which a 170-4 majority in the UN General assembly voted for) and trade with Cuba while your people starve since the US won't trade with you, or trade with the US and submit to their blockade. The US is operating in defiance of UN resolutions and you continue to make Cuba out to be evil.

Since when do you give a smeg about international law? Its against international law for Kosovo to declare independence yet you continue to support that. Its against the law to knowingly fire rockets onto civilians and use civilians as human shields and yet you continue to support Hezbollah. People aren’t supposed to ‘pick’ which laws they like and which they don’t.

[Bond]

J m, you support Hezbollah?

You silly floozling wombat.


Edit: Please no direct insults, no matter how strongly you disagree with someone's opinion.

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 10 September 2007 - 07:42 PM

[Jordan]

Hezbollah are seen as freedom fighters. Basically if the US calls them terrorists, JM supports it. JM doesn't support any political or religious acts hezbhollah and the crazy islamic militant groups practice, but the enemy of his enemy is his friend.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 10 September 2007 - 09:40 PM

[Bond]

Let's get back on topic, everyone!

[Cobnat]

Hezbollah are seen as freedom fighters. Basically if the US calls them terrorists, JM supports it. JM doesn't support any political or religious acts hezbhollah and the crazy islamic militant groups practice, but the enemy of his enemy is his friend.

But he supports the KLA and they are allies to the United States.

[Jordan]

1 If you're anti US, then you're ok

2 If you're being supported by the US, then you're evil

2a If you're being supported by the US, have tanned skin, are not christian and are fighting a white country with chrisitian heritage, then you're ok.

KLA fall under 2a.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 11 September 2007 - 02:53 AM

[Bond]

Pardon, but what's KLA?

Now, turning back to our topic...

[Jordan]

fucksake bond, google it

http://en.wikipedia....Liberation_Army

This post has been edited by Jordan: 11 September 2007 - 11:20 AM