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The Iraqi Strategy Problems and Solutions

#1 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 01:52 AM

Is it just me or is the United States making the same mistakes in Iraq that they made in Vietnam (the first mistake being intervening in the first place but lets forget about that now and see this from a U.S war room prospective)? One mistake would be to withdraw troops from Iraq and another is not willing to make massive troops sacrifices for victory since American Generals (against popular belief) are big pussies who care more about what the media think then what their training dictates. Another problem is that like Vietnam the insurgents are not controlled by one source (the Vietcong were an independent force from the NVA) and so the only way to win against them is not by trying to destroy a phantom army but rather to either win over the enemy (somehow) or to crush the enemy by declaring martial law and turning Iraq into a new Saddam-like state. Recapping on my previous point about martial law; the United States seems more interested in trying to make out the new government in Iraq to be Democratic then actually maintaining law and order. Also since the United States decided to disband the Iraqi Republican Guard; now there seems to be an infinite amount of weapons, skilled solders and popular support for the insurgent armies (in other words the Coalition soldiers that have already died have died for nothing since they are not going to win the war in Iraq anyway because winning would mean to wipe out a popular movement rather then wiping out an army).

Of course the only solution I can give (without withdrawing) is to send more troops in and declare martial law.
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#2 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 10:28 AM

I doubt martial law would do any good. sad.gif

Besides, Petraeus and his men have a plan, and, so far, it's succeeding. wink.gif
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#3 User is offline   Cyzyk Icon

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 12:28 PM

Yeah, I must admit that not killing every male Iraqi between 15 and 50 is limiting the dramatic amount of peace we can bring to the country. We forgot to do that in Viet Nam, too.

The reason guerilla warfare sometimes works is not a testament to the effectiveness of the user; it's a way to take advantage of someone's humanity. Nobody ever did it to the Mongols for this reason; their tactics rendered them mostly immune to it.

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but rather to either win over the enemy (somehow) or to crush the enemy by declaring martial law and turning Iraq into a new Saddam-like state

Win over the enemy? Our government can't even win most Americans over. The problem is their religion. Nobody's asking them to do anything but stop killing each other and us, and for some reason, they can't manage it.

As for the dictator option, this country would never let Bush appoint a leader, American or Iraqi. They barely let him appoint supreme court justices, which is part of his job.
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#4 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 12:37 PM

Maybe al-Maliki should be a bit more forceful in his policies; after all, you never can tell. wink.gif
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#5 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 04:02 PM

QUOTE (Cyzyk @ Aug 25 2007, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yeah, I must admit that not killing every male Iraqi between 15 and 50 is limiting the dramatic amount of peace we can bring to the country. We forgot to do that in Viet Nam, too.


Lest we forget that there were plenty of women and children in the Vietcong ranks.

QUOTE (Cyzyk @ Aug 25 2007, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Win over the enemy? Our government can't even win most Americans over. The problem is their religion. Nobody's asking them to do anything but stop killing each other and us, and for some reason, they can't manage it.


The problem is not religion. It is the tribalistic culture of Iraq. Those “sectarian fighters” are fighting for their families and their villages/towns rather then their country.

QUOTE (Cyzyk @ Aug 25 2007, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for the dictator option, this country would never let Bush appoint a leader, American or Iraqi. They barely let him appoint supreme court justices, which is part of his job.


I am not talking about turning Iraq over to a dictator. I am talking about turning Iraq into an occupied military state.
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#6 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 10:00 PM

QUOTE (Cobnat @ Aug 25 2007, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Lest we forget that there were plenty of women and children in the Vietcong ranks.


This a bit different: the Viet Cong didn't have religion to supposedly back their violence up; these guys do. unsure.gif

QUOTE (Cobnat @ Aug 25 2007, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The problem is not religion. It is the tribalistic culture of Iraq. Those “sectarian fighters” are fighting for their families and their villages/towns rather then their country.


Well, first Britain, then Saddam, and now the U.S.; I think they're getting a wee bit tired of being occupied all the time, eh? wink.gif

QUOTE (Cobnat @ Aug 25 2007, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am not talking about turning Iraq over to a dictator. I am talking about turning Iraq into an occupied military state.


Which reminds me, strikingly, of what Hitler did to Czechoslovakia in the 1940's. ohmy.gif
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#7 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 01:31 PM

You lot are acting as though the US DESERVES to win in Iraq. As if it's preferable. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I bloody hope the Muslims win.

QUOTE
The problem is their religion. Nobody's asking them to do anything but stop killing each other and us, and for some reason, they can't manage it.


Funny, you could apply much the same statement to Northern Island's entire history, but they're civilized white Christians up there so we'll be nice. I know there have been peace accords, but that took what, 100 years?

Oh, and the martial law IS imposed. The US can capture and hold anyone they like for however long they like (including American FBI agents) they can shoot people for being out past dark or driving too fast, they can bust into any house with no warrant, break up protests, etc etc. Iraq is under a dictatorship run by General Petraeus. The supposedly elected government is merely a cover.

QUOTE
Besides, Petraeus and his men have a plan, and, so far, it's succeeding.


Snort. Chortle. He goes in, arrests whoever has the wrong skin color, tells the media there have been thirty arrests, interrogates them for a day or two and usually lets the majority of them go, and then we never go back to the area again til there's a bombing.

QUOTE
The reason guerilla warfare sometimes works is not a testament to the effectiveness of the user; it's a way to take advantage of someone's humanity. Nobody ever did it to the Mongols for this reason; their tactics rendered them mostly immune to it.


I call bullshit. Take advantage of WHAT humanity, Czyck? The US massacred villages in South Vietnam if they even thought the liberation forces were present. They firebombed forrests and farms without a second thought, they propped up an evil dictator just because he was against his country's freedom. In Cuba when His Excellency was leading the struggle for freedom we sold bombs to Batista so he could blow up villages the rebels were thought to be in.

The humanity is what is shown by the guerilla fighters. And the people's support shows it.

Here's my solution to Iraq:

Pull out immediately, stopping at every house we pass to apologize for our unwarranted assault and try to repair what damage we can. Have every American leader involved in lying us into this war hung, preferably in Baghdad where people can see it. Then make a binding contract to guarantee reparations to whatever Iraqi government takes form regardless of what government that is, in other words if they elect a government like Hamas we can't just decide we don't want to pay them humanitarian aid.

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#8 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 01:44 PM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 28 2007, 01:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here's my solution to Iraq:

Pull out immediately, stopping at every house we pass to apologize for our unwarranted assault and try to repair what damage we can. Have every American leader involved in lying us into this war hung, preferably in Baghdad where people can see it. Then make a binding contract to guarantee reparations to whatever Iraqi government takes form regardless of what government that is, in other words if they elect a government like Hamas we can't just decide we don't want to pay them humanitarian aid.


Hmmph. Another reason why the USSR fell... rolleyes.gif
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#9 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 02:45 PM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 28 2007, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You lot are acting as though the US DESERVES to win in Iraq. As if it's preferable. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I bloody hope the Muslims win.


To be completely honest; it doesn’t look like Muslims are winning (or are going to win) the war. Wether the U.S or the sectarians are doing the bombing; Muslims are suffering and I doubt the U.S or the sectarians will start dishing out money to the people anytime soon.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 28 2007, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, and the martial law IS imposed. The US can capture and hold anyone they like for however long they like (including American FBI agents) they can shoot people for being out past dark or driving too fast, they can bust into any house with no warrant, break up protests, etc etc. Iraq is under a dictatorship run by General Petraeus. The supposedly elected government is merely a cover.


In that case they should just stop breaking into random peoples homes because that is like finding a needle in a haystack.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 28 2007, 10:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He goes in, arrests whoever has the wrong skin color,


You do know that half the American army is black, right?

QUOTE (Bond @ Aug 25 2007, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This a bit different: the Viet Cong didn't have religion to supposedly back their violence up; these guys do. unsure.gif


Its not so much what people are fighting for; its what they are fighting against. In the Vietnam war there were hundreds of sides but they all fitted into 2 categories; anti-American and anti-Communist. Just like those in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting more against the U.S army then they are fighting for Islam.

Spite unites us all in times of war!

QUOTE (Bond @ Aug 25 2007, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Which reminds me, strikingly, of what Hitler did to Czechoslovakia in the 1940's. ohmy.gif


What about Poland, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Denmark, Norway and the Soviet Union?

But if it were like Czechoslovakia then I don’t think American soldiers have anything to worry about unless the SAS decide to support the insurgents.
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#10 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 02:59 PM

QUOTE (Cobnat @ Aug 28 2007, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Its not so much what people are fighting for; its what they are fighting against. In the Vietnam war there were hundreds of sides but they all fitted into 2 categories; anti-American and anti-Communist. Just like those in Iraq and Afghanistan are fighting more against the U.S army then they are fighting for Islam.


Well, I suppose the radical clerics take advantage of that, then... sleep.gif
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#11 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 04:11 PM

QUOTE (Bond @ Aug 28 2007, 11:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Well, I suppose the radical clerics take advantage of that, then... sleep.gif


Yes they do. Just as the NVA communists took advantage of Vietcong nationalists.
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#12 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 04:15 PM

QUOTE (Cobnat @ Aug 28 2007, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes they do. Just as the NVA communists took advantage of Vietcong nationalists.


And look what happened there... dry.gif
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#13 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 28 August 2007 - 11:01 PM

QUOTE
To be completely honest; it doesn’t look like Muslims are winning (or are going to win) the war.


As good a point as I've ever seen from you. No, I don't suppose that in terms of lives, property and leaders lost the Muslims are winning. But if they get the US forces to retreat that's a victory even though the Iraqi people will have clearly lost. I don't know, do you think it would be better if they just cooperated with the imperialists and became a US puppet, or if they keep fighting losing untold thousands of lives just to preserve their national dignity? Personally I'd keep fighting.

QUOTE
You do know that half the American army is black, right?


And while we're on statistics:

Everyone in Bush's club house who supported this war was white.
The US has never willingly entered a war with a majority white Christian enemy (The south had to secede to make us attack them, mexico and Cuba were hispanic countries, the Germans had to torpedo a cruise liner and then the Germans actually declared war on the US after pearl harbor. Since then all the US aggression has been against Africans (Congo) Latinos (Chile, Nicaragua, Cuba, Panama, Grenada) or Asians (Vietnam, Korea)

Not since the war of eighteen twelve has the US willingly gone to war with a caucasian nation. It's much more fun commiting genocide against people who are inferior to you. It started with the Indians and Africans, then the Vietnamese and Latinos, and now it's Muslims. The fundamental reasoning behind these unwarranted aggressions is imperialism, but these pigs recognize their own kind.

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#14 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 29 August 2007 - 12:01 AM

we bombed serbs. they're white and christian.
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Posted 29 August 2007 - 02:05 AM

Yeah that's a bit of a stretch JM. US Imperialism isn't about race; it's about money.
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