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Are We being to TOO critical on this forum?

#1 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 07:02 PM

A friend of mine who avidly loves the PT films {and the OT films} asked me about this forum. She is not a HUGE Star Wars fine by any stretch. but I showed her Elf's "Reasons" lists. She scoffs at the list for these reasons:

1. We are being way to overly critical and are nitpicking on minor details.

2. We are all so enamored with the OT films that there was no possible way that the PT films could ever match are lofty expectations.

3. Think about this: to understand anything on this forum you HAVE to see all the PT films. So in order to hate these movies we have to watch them. Even just talking about them might convince someone to watch the. So essentially George Lucas is getting his money from his most vicious critics. Kind of stupid, don't you think?

4. We all have too much time on our hands. {I dismissed her after that LUDICROUS comment :angry: }

But after showing her the door. I started wondering. Could she be right is theis board insanely overcritical?? When I first joined this forum, I assumed I was at home with some rational people that spoke the truth in a world of irrationality. In the world there were all these idiots saying how great the PT films were, and I kept thinking to myself how wrong they all were. When I found Elf's lists I was pleased to find someone who got the errors of the tow movies down pat!!! Elf's list was DEAD ON TARGET.!!! I then moved to the forum, and found all you guys who shared my opinions on Elf's list. The conversations on this sight have been great {YES, even my sparrings with civilian have been enjoyable, as I am sure he likes them too, though he would never admit to that biggrin.gif } So it has been great on this forum.

But, then I found out all the vile hatred that a few of you have for ROTJ. I also saw al the reasons posted. I was shocked first of all because this forum has been the only place I have heard such riticism over ROTJ. {cept for the movie critics, but they hate SW films to begin with} I mean the reasons giving to hate ROTJ, we WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYY overcritical. I mean some of you guys sound like "Simon Cowell' from American Idol, when you critique ROTJ. I mean seriously!!!! Same goes for Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

Thus it had me thinking......Am I also been overly critical of the PT films???? Are we all just ripping the films because they didn't turn out the way WE wanted them too. I mean we had 15 years of expectations, creating the prequels in our heads, and Star Wars books. Were these films doomed for failure in our eyes.

Was my friend right? Are we being OVER Critcally? Are we really helping Lucas money machine here by this forum? Is the darkside of George Lucas overcoming me? Should I simply stop inviting my old high school aquaintances over?? tongue.gif
Please I am losing the faith here!!!!!!! sad.gif
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Posted 18 April 2004 - 07:08 PM

QUOTE
"Are we all just ripping the films because they didn't turn out the way WE wanted them to?"


Thats what I think. Seems like people weren't happy because they seemingly already had the prequels in their heads years ago, and when it turned out to be completely different from what they expected, all hell broke loose. When you watch the movies with the mindset that this is what George wanted, not what you wanted, they become slightly more enjoyable...but not much. Are the movies perfect? Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no. But there are lots of reasons to like them as well as hate them. I refuse to believe there are only 2 or 3 good moments in these prequel films, it seems as if some people have gotten to a point where they go to movies solely to critique them, not to enjoy them.
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#3 User is offline   srmoore Icon

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 07:39 PM

I think it may also be just because we don't like the way Lucas has handled himself lately.. and thus turn to destroy things that this newer lucas (which I call the annoying lucas) makes. But I could be wrong.
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#4 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 08:57 PM

We need forums like this. We need people to speak up against the debauchery Lucas (and sub-par directors) churn out.
Go to www.starwars.com forums, a place where I've been permanately ban. Go read the topics they post.

I had a long heated debate on "the neccessity of Jango Fett". Obvioulsy, I stood for the Non-neccessity, and as a result was bombarded by multiplie replies a day saying how stupid I was, and how Jango is a big part that needed to be shown.

I used the qoute from McCallum, it went something like this

"we now know why Boba is so obsessed with destroying the skywalker family"

Everyone here knows that this qoute is abosolute bull shit. Yet when I post it at the SW forums, I had one guy try defend it (the rest over looked it, conviently enough for them)

The guy who replied said something like this:

"In ROTJ on the sand skiff, Jango points his gun at Luke and tries to kill him, so he was out to kill the skywalkers"

I m not even going to bother tell you what I put as a rebutte, I don't think it's even worth two shits and a nod. We all know that was the worst possible bit of defense the guy could have used.

But anyways that is just an example. Can you live in a world like this? With people who love the PT. I can't.

I think another great reason as to why we come here and rant is simply for the sake of humor.

It's funny stuff. I laughed my ass off reading Chef's reasons list. It's humor is not unlike Jerry Seinfeld. He points out true events and exposes them in the form of humor. I don't think we are being to critical. I think we are being brutally honest.

I was expecting 3 films, all with the darkness of ESB. I was hoping to get to know Darth Vader better. The disappointment was on a grand scale. And therefore, our wrath should be equal in magnitude.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 18 April 2004 - 09:23 PM

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#5 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 09:10 PM

what we had in our heads was a picture painted by dialogue from the OT, so technically any dissapointment is still Georges fault... it's also a matter of poor film making, screw the story and characters. It all would have worked if they had built at least one set, or hired a single extra! to much CGI where it's not needed, the actors were rushed through their lines that they had to deliver to thin air, and even the after added in effects seemed rushed. it seems as if no efffort at all was put in...

the whole thing so far looks like video game story bits, like the cinematics from Wing Commander 3.

i say, we're not being TOO critical enough!!!

This post has been edited by barend: 18 April 2004 - 09:13 PM

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 10:39 PM

2. We are all so enamored with the OT films that there was no possible way that the PT films could ever match are lofty expectations.

We are enamored with the old films because they were good films. They were simple in story where this leads to that, and that leads to this.

I do think at times we are overly critical (especially about the OT, otherwise people will think why we bother watching at all).

I'm sorry your friend doesn't like SW, but one has to appreciate them because they are the SETUP for the Prequels, not vice-versa, despite how so many 'gushers' view the SW films. Either way you watch them, they will suffer because of the other.

There were precedences set up by the OT. Precendences which should have been met, and should have been met if it's creator HAD PAID ATTENTION, or reviewed his notes!! Or just simply---WATCH HIS OWN DANG FILMS!!

Sigh.

Altho, all of this has made me feel hopeless about the PT, hopeless even about the OT, and I don't know why I bother anymore. Time to get more interested in something with a little less contention... like politics.
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#7 User is offline   Supes Icon

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Posted 18 April 2004 - 10:53 PM

QUOTE (Mike Mac from NYU @ Apr 18 2004, 07:02 PM)
Was my friend right? Are we being OVER Critcally? Are we really helping Lucas money machine here by this forum? Is the darkside of George Lucas overcoming me? Should I simply stop inviting my old high school aquaintances over?? tongue.gif
Please I am losing the faith here!!!!!!! sad.gif

Of course in many respects we are being overly critical. But the question you need to ask is why am I being overly critical? You know in yourself that you are now tearing these films apart. What caused you to do this?

For my part it came initially from the time I walked out of the cinema and said, "Shit!"

I am by no means a film expert. I've helped in the making of some short films with friends. I've acted a little and been behind the camera a little, but I don't believe this makes me an expert on the art of film making. What I do know, however, is what I enjoy, and I didn't enjoy these movies. Before I'd read Chefelf's list I merely hated the bad acting, scripting, and story. Pinpointing specifics was not yet where I was going.

But let's face it, it is about our expectations, and they are our expectations as set out by Lucas in the original films. There is enough allusion to what has gone before to tell us who the major players are - Anakin, Obi-Wan, Palpatine and the, at the time unnamed mother of Luke & Leia, Amidala. This really hasn't been delivered.

I cared about the characters in the OT. I don't care about the characters in the PT. We are overly critical because these film have not met our high expectation. And yes they were high expectations. They were never going to be anything less. Lucas would have been aware of this. I also believe that he felt he was going to be making great films that people would love. He was wrong!
Luminous beings are we... not this crude matter.
Yoda
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#8 Guest_HK 47_*

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 02:45 AM

1. I agree that a few of chefelfs reasons are a bit nitpicky, but 90% of them are totally valid. Some of the faults of the prequels are really major issues that bring down Star Wars down to a level of suckage that I could never imagine. And with huge disappointment comes nitpicking.

2. No, do not agree, they could certainly be made to match our expectations, only they suck. I clearly remember how empty and cold I felt after the premiere of PM. Then outrage and hatred replaced those feelings. The prequels aren't even mediocre. Compare it with LOTR. I had really high expectations, I know the story by heart, and PJ manages to surpass my expectations to a level I never thought possible. The exact opposite of Lucas.

3. Obviously, George gets the $ no matter what. But I doubt this boards efforts affect the size of his income...

4. Indeed, LUDICROUS!! laugh.gif
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#9 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 03:36 AM

QUOTE (Mike Mac from NYU @ Apr 18 2004, 07:02 PM)
Thus it had me thinking......Am I also been overly critical of the PT films???? Are we all just ripping the films because they didn't turn out the way WE wanted them too. I mean we had 15 years of expectations, creating the prequels in our heads, and Star Wars books. Were these films doomed for failure in our eyes.

Was my friend right? Are we being OVER Critcally? Are we really helping Lucas money machine here by this forum? Is the darkside of George Lucas overcoming me? Should I simply stop inviting my old high school aquaintances over?? tongue.gif
Please I am losing the faith here!!!!!!! sad.gif

We are not overly critical here. Had the PT been any good at all, we wouldn't be complaining about it as fiercely as we are. It's not as though we expected CITIZEN KANE and had to settle for TOUCH OF EVIL. It's a case of expecting CONAN THE BARBARIAN and getting KULL instead. that's right, KULL. Even the criticisms i level at JEDI are more "It could have been so good, and it fell short" rather than "It was a ruthless insult to my intelligence, not worthy of the name STAR WARS."

I don't thik the prequels were doomed to fail due to high expectations. I think they were doomed to fail because Lucas had no new stories to tell. His whole point with the prequels is to try to flesh out the backstory or the OT; yet the OT was complete enough, with a backstory that could have been written on the back of a business card. Lucas failed either because he couldn't come up with anything *new,* or because he thought he wasn't supposed to.

We're not fueling Lucas's mechandising empire. After all, we're not watching the movies, or buying the DVDs, and we certainly didn't run out and buy the soundtack or the stupid two-headed toy lightsaber.

DID WE?
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#10 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 06:23 AM

Just read through this post and thought I had to say something but you guys have most of it pretty well covered.

The fact that our expectations weren't met was Lucas' fault. Our expectations came from the Original Trilogy.

And Civilian, I agree wholeheartedly with you about the fact that no-one needs the prequels. The story was complete and the important stuff of the background story was given in the original movies too.

And Return of the Jedi? I thought it had major flaws but you can still salvage the film. Like I said, I found about 50 minutes of watchable material in there.

The prequels on the otherhand are just awful. Personally, the reason why I hate them so much was because Lucas is assaulting the original trilogy with them. He is capitalising on the name Star Wars to sell complete trash to a new generation of kids who've probably never seen the original trilogy. I hate the fact that Lucas abandoned all the fans who got him to where he was in the first place. I hate the fact that he put Jar Jar Binks in Episode I just because he could and after hearing how much everybody HATED Jar Jar Binks, he put him in Episode II as well!

I hate the fact that he managed to create a new series of films that has absolutely NOTHING in common with the original trilogy.

And something I really hate is the fact that I hear dickheads saying the new movies are great. Someone told me he thought Episode II was the best Star Wars movie ever made and I wanted to bash his head in.

I don't mind if Lucas wants to make trash like this - it's his life. But how dare he put the name Star Wars on it? I wish 20th Century Fox had kept all the rights and had stopped Lucas from destroying his own movies. If they had done so, they could have also avoided the Special Edition nonsense or at least made the Special Editions only have genuine improvements in them.

Actually, that gives me an idea for another post....
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#11 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 09:31 AM

QUOTE
We're not fueling Lucas's mechandising empire. After all, we're not watching the movies, or buying the DVDs, and we certainly didn't run out and buy the soundtack or the stupid two-headed toy lightsaber.


From what I gather there were more than a few of us on this site that have purchased the DVDs and other memorobilia. And quite a few that have but will not admit it.


QUOTE
It's not as though we expected CITIZEN KANE and had to settle for TOUCH OF EVIL. It's a case of expecting CONAN THE BARBARIAN and getting KULL instead. that's right, KULL. Even the criticisms i level at JEDI are more "It could have been so good, and it fell short" rather than "It was a ruthless insult to my intelligence, not worthy of the name STAR WARS."


I think if you look back at a some of your previous, you remarks about ROTJ were a tad bit more venomous. But your point is taken.

QUOTE
And Civilian, I agree wholeheartedly with you about the fact that no-one needs the prequels. The story was complete and the important stuff of the background story was given in the original movies too.



I disagree. We ALL wanted to see more Star Wars movies. We were all waiting a good 15 year wait since the last movie in anticipation. We ALL wanted to know the story behind Obi-Wan and Vader.
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#12 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 09:39 AM

QUOTE
I disagree. We ALL wanted to see more Star Wars movies. We were all waiting a good 15 year wait since the last movie in anticipation. We ALL wanted to know the story behind Obi-Wan and Vader.


I know what you're saying. But we'd be happier with nothing rather than the crap Lucas gave us. Like you said, we've all had our own prequels in our heads for many years. And I guarantee, everyone was a lot happier with their own versions than the ones they saw at the theatre.
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#13 User is offline   Vwing Icon

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 10:51 AM

Of course we're being overly critical. Why? Because it's fun! Listen, these movies are not the worst movies ever. They are no less than 2-star movies, which I know, by Star Wars standard is horrible, but they are at the most sub-par when compared to other movies. But it's fun to criticize! I think every movie critic goes into the business because he is a bit sadistic. It's fun to rip movies, give horrible reviews. That's what we're doing.

And I have no shame in admitting that I bought both DVDs, the soundtrack, and the 2-headed lightsaber. Of those, the soundtrack entertains me the most, and is truly on par with the originals, especially since the 2-headed lightsaber broke a few months after I bought it. I don't give a crap if I'm fueling his empire. It's fun for me to own all those things (though actually I don't know why I bought the lightsaber after thinking about it). It's also fun for me to criticize. That simple.
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#14 User is offline   Sagacity Icon

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 12:50 PM

QUOTE
We ALL wanted to see more Star Wars movies. We were all waiting a good 15 year wait since the last movie in anticipation. We ALL wanted to know the story behind Obi-Wan and Vader.


No, no, and no. I know a lot of people, including myself, who don't care about Vader's origins or wanted to see a prequel trilogy. The OT told us all we really needed to know to understand what was going on.

Are we being too critical? Heck no. I go to a message board where there's been an ongoing anti-TPM (now anti-PT) thread for almost five years. Now THAT'S being critical! biggrin.gif
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#15 User is offline   Mike Mac from NYU Icon

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Posted 19 April 2004 - 01:24 PM

To sagacity

QUOTE
No, no, and no. I know a lot of people, including myself, who don't care about Vader's origins or wanted to see a prequel trilogy. The OT told us all we really needed to know to understand what was going on.


But did you want to see another Star Wars movie? Be honest!!

BTW Your avatar is absolutely kicking!!!! tongue.gif
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