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After the dust has settled. The long-term impact of the prequels.

#61 User is offline   azerty Icon

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 09:43 AM

I know that right now all over West Europe you can buy the original three movies on dvd without having to make the slightest effort to look for them.

Carrefour has them in the bargain bucket for about 6 euros in France, El Corte Ingles has them in the bargain bucket for about the same in Spain, and I've seen them in the Del Haize in Belgium, the Géant, and the Co-Op in Italy. I don't think that the so called limited release means anything at all - those unaltered films are going to be around forever. The bad news is that the reason they are available in the first place is that nobody wants them.

What do we have after the dust has settled? Who cares about the dust? You either like the movies or you don't like them. You can say that you like the "Original Trilogy", (which isn't a trilogy at all, but rather a single film followed by a sort of half assed bi-logy), or the "Prequel Trilogy", (which is a a complete disjointed mess), or even say "I like all things Star Wars". All anyone else can say is "no you don't!"

So the dust has cleared and I can say that I like "Star Wars". Not "Episode 4", not the "Original Trilogy", but the film that stands alone, the film that changed cinema forever.

Storm's arguments against the original Star Wars lack sense in every definition of the word. It's not "a sloppy, sloppy movie." Without that one film, there would have been no others in the so called" Star Wars Saga". Certainly none of the other films recieved such glowing reviews. Even Empire Strikes Back was more or less panned by the critics. It made it's money mostly off the momentum from the original film. And Return of the Jedi made it's money because of Empire's cliff hanger ending, and most people just wanted to know how things were wrapped up.

Yes, I have read that most everyone considers Empire to be the best film of the series. Except that we have to be careful to say "Episode", because it's not really a complete entity on it's own. It has an arbitrarialy chosen starting point and stopping point, in fact so much so that a person can't even use the words "beginning" and "ending". In fact it is impossible to determine how long after the first film Empire is meant to take place.

None of this is the point however. The point is this: Star Wars was an experimental film by Lucas. Most studios thought the idea was ridiculous. He managed to make it anyway, everybody giving him shit the whole time about how stupid it was. He had some serious balls back then just to get the job done, and on time, and under budget.

Star Wars isn't silly, it's fun. Empire and the rest of them ARE silly, and aren't much fun. You can like them, but it's not easy to defend them against criticism.

Just so that I don't disagree with everyone today, I will agree with Civilian Number 2 and say that Luke in the X-wing at the end of Star Wars is not ridiculous: Pelé came from the slums of Brazil having played football with a ball of newspapers to beocme the worlds best player. Albert Ball showed up in World War One Flanders with no combat experience (having payed for flying lessons out of his own pocket as a boy) and became the leading ace of the war and earned the Victoria Cross before he was 20. Fausto Coppi came from nowhere to be the best racing cyclist in the world. Right now Lewis Hamilton is Kicking Fernando Alonso's Ass in F1. Peter Jackson came from B movies to make the Lord of the Rings trilogy. That kind of emerging genius thing has been happening all throughout history.
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#62 User is offline   rosenrot Icon

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 10:24 AM

I think the six Star Wars films are some of the best I've ever seen, I still view them regularly.

I honestly don't see what the fuss is about. I think some people just got their expectations too high.
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#63 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 10:39 AM

Wow, it's so great to see the regulars chiming in like the old days. I'm still Despondent on SW, so yes MG, my faith in the program died long ago. That was also pages ago, but I did want to comment and I'm glad you still like the franchise overall.

Storm would have a problem with Arther drawing a sword from a stone.
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#64 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 06:32 PM

So far I've only read the first post. (I will read the rest, I just think my opinion must be shared before 1000 people ring and make me forget....

I remember at parties, not nerdling parties, proper beer swilling loud laughter, drum kit in the corner, parties... Every now and then the topic of star wars would come up...

A girl would walk into the conversation, roll her eyes affectionately rolleyes.gif and say to another girl; "oh, the boys are talking about star wars again." like we were discussing hockey or moto GP or bands we like or some shit (which probably would come up later or before).

Now you go to a party and it's like; "oh those geeks are talking about star wars" sick.gif

The prequels, and much of the EU geeked star wars the fuck out. oooh let me roll a chance cube, let me win a kart race, let me tell you there are always two, let me tell you your breaking me heart... for fucks sake!!! What happened? I'll tell you what happened, no Harrison Ford, that's what. No balls! Just geek, geek, geek, geek, beep! bleaaaachhh...

Star Wars was something for everyone one, now, like Star Trek, it's gooey, sugary, retarded crap for people who will NEVER have sex. Especially if they say things like "you're breaking my heart" (a friend of mine has promised to yell this at his wife if they ever have an argument, for a laugh).

Star Trek used to be fun because it was a combination of physical and mental, like old SW. now it's let's talk like geeks and nerd out the joint. People like Lucas need limitations and co-workers to curb is dorkiness because they guy has a great imagination but no idea of how things work socially. His tales have suffered for it, because he never understood what made the originals so loveable.

Star Wars was something I once proudly adored, Then it became a dirty secret, Now it's something I have to explain when people ask.

geek.gif "Are you a Star Wars fan?"

cool.gif "Yep... Three of my favourite films right there."

geek.gif "You mean six, right."

cool.gif "I don't know what you're talking about."

geek.gif "There's si-"

SMACK!

geek.gif "Sorry."

cool.gif "It's okay... rookie mistake."
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#65 User is offline   Casual Fan Icon

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 10:09 PM

I agree with Azerty about the orginal "Star Wars". At the end of the day, this movie changed moviemaking, in both good and bad ways, is always enjoyable to watch, and really is a classic. You can watch it without having to watch the other movies. You can't say that about "Empire Strikes Back", which I like and which I realize is the popular favorite.

In some ways the original "Star Wars" is the odd movie out in the series. The storyarc of the series is Anakin Skywalker/ Vader, his starting a family, his fall and his redemption, both triggered by family members. The original "Star Wars" is mainly about the rebellion and its destruction of the empire's ultimate weapon, and about Luke leaving his farm to join Obi Wan and the rebellion. Vader has an important part, but its entirely as the Emperor's henchman. His only interaction with Luke is in fighter combat and there is no hint of any family relationship with Luke. The "Empire Strikes Back" collapses the story from a war between the rebels and the empire to a family drama.

Maybe you could watch the five movies in sequence and skip ANH, and have the plot make sense. So we see the Death Star under construction at the end of ROTS, then a Death Star under construction appears in ROTJ. Yoda and Palpatine don't appear at all in ANH. Vader's character doesn't change. You basically miss the introduction of Luke, Leia, and Han Solo, but they all appear as rebel leaders on Hoth at the beginning of ESB, and maybe someone who never saw ANH or knew the story will accept that. At the end of ESB we suddenly find out that Luke was the baby handed to Owen and Beru, I think that would work fine. I think the only real disconuity is Obi Wan going into exile then showing up as a ghost later, without the audience seeing his death. On the other hand, the series would gain without two Death Stars, without having to explain how people forgot about the Jedis' existence, without the strong hints of a Luke-Leia romance throughout ANH (you would just get one scene in ESB instead), and especially without Obi Wan's telling the backstory to Luke in a way that was completely contradicted by all five other movies.

On that note, you could lose AOTC as well, which is both the worst crafted of the movies and does little to advance the story. There are OK parts in both TPM and ROTS, though dislike both movies on the whole, so a TPM -ROTS -ESB -ROTJ quartet would be interesting and tell a coherent story. Most of the discontinuities between the OT and the Prequels are really about stuff that occurs in ANH.

My personal order of preference is the original Star Wars, then after a gap ESB then ROTJ, then after a big gap TPM and ROTS, then another big gap and AOTC brings up the rear. I put ROTS so far down because I think the silliness of the Palpatine -Yoda duel, the lava surfing, and the suddeness of Anakin's conversion, let alone the yell at the end, outweights the equivalent cheese that you get in ROTJ and TPM.
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#66 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 11:23 PM

QUOTE
Maybe you could watch the five movies in sequence and skip ANH


That is awful.

I will agree with you though, Casual Fan and Azerty too, that Star Wars is unique because it is a stand-alone. But don't fault The Empire Strikes Back for not being self-contained. Blame Return of the Jedi for not delivering the goods but leave The Empire Strikes Back alone. It's not a silly film. It's a truly amazing film.

As for the concept of the Star Wars trilogy not really being a trilogy, I'll give you that. Actually, the end of The Empire Strikes Back actually looks like it was establishing a long-running saga. It seems very strange that from their weakened position at the end of the film, the rebel alliance were able to mop the floor with the Empire in the next movie and wrap up the series in just a shoddy little two hour flick.

I will say though that The Empire Strikes Back is episodic and Star Wars is not - which I suspect, Azerty, is the real reason behind your open disdain for this movie.

On a different note, it's good to know that you can still get the original movies everywhere in Western Europe for a bargain - but it's shame about the reason why.

And lastly, Barend, you make an excellent point about how Star Wars has become nerdy with the prequels. I imagine if you talked about the rule of two Sith at a party, you might not get invited back again. Also, I really like your solution to the new problem of what to say when somebody asks you if you like Star Wars.

I also like the additional use of the nerd smiley in your explanation. I don't where you got it from but it gave me a good laugh.

"There's si - "

SMACK!

Simple. Effective. Love it.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 23 August 2007 - 11:25 PM

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#67 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 01:25 AM

I have difficulty believing that Star Wars used to be something that a real "man's man" would talk about at a party. Then again, perhaps they were discussing the absurdity of an 18 year old farm boy playing around with the model of a ship that he actualy owned, or Princess Leia deciding to return to Rebel's secret base on Yavin knowing she was being tracked by the Empire.

I wouldn't know....I wasn't born until 1982.

This post has been edited by Storm: 24 August 2007 - 01:27 AM

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#68 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 02:04 AM

STAR WARS was nominated for Best Picture in 1977. It was widely regarded as an important film, more than a kid's escape, and something worth talking about. "Man's Men" talked about the LORD OF THE RINGS films in recent years, while the novels themselves really got hippy blood pumping like mad for a while. Heavy metal bands even wrote songs about them back in the day.

So you can have difficulty believing it all you want, but folks talk about what is popular, real men among them. Unless I don't understand what you mean by "Man's man," and you imagined that Barend was describing parties that cowboys went to before trolling the towns to hire hookers and beat up fags. You know, guys who think reading is gay and would even mock you for reading Hemmingway. It didn't sound to me, however, that he was.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 24 August 2007 - 02:06 AM

"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#69 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 03:09 PM

QUOTE (barend @ Aug 23 2007, 06:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The prequels, and much of the EU geeked star wars the fuck out. [...]
Star Wars was something for everyone one, now, like Star Trek, it's gooey, sugary, retarded crap for people who will NEVER have sex.


Wow. This is exactly how I feel about it now. Perhaps except KOTOR. Bur since it seems KOTOR III is scrapped from the Lucas universe, there is nothing, absolutely nothing to look forward too.

What remains is some childhood memories which are flippantly dismissed as silly and crap FX by the youth who grew up on special effects from Jurassic Park. So what is the point of arguing anymore?

Edit: Barend - Yo man! smile.gif nice to see you too!

This post has been edited by Madam Corvax: 24 August 2007 - 03:11 PM

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#70 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 04:38 PM

QUOTE (Madam Corvax @ Aug 24 2007, 03:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow. This is exactly how I feel about it now. Perhaps except KOTOR. Bur since it seems KOTOR III is scrapped from the Lucas universe, there is nothing, absolutely nothing to look forward too.


Well, KOTOR as a whole is fucking cool, so... cool.gif
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#71 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 08:04 PM

QUOTE
Edit: Barend - Yo man! nice to see you too!


Still not even a "Hi" for old Movie Goer? I feel so dejected.

As for Star Wars being nerdy now, that loops nicely back into my original point that the prequels have tarnished its good name.

I really hope that those abominations will disappear off the radar and that young people will get the chance to see the original movies again (unaltered of course). Basically, I want to see them passed down through future generations.

Hm... I think I've probably said all there is to say on this subject. Thanks for the good discussion, everyone.
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#72 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 08:07 PM

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Aug 26 2007, 08:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Still not even a "Hi" for old Movie Goer? I feel so dejected.


Hi, old Movie Goer! smile.gif
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#73 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 26 August 2007 - 11:05 PM

Thanks, Bond. smile.gif
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#74 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 10:10 AM

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Aug 26 2007, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for Star Wars being nerdy now, that loops nicely back into my original point that the prequels have tarnished its good name.


Nerdy now? Star Wars was always nerdy, my friend. smile.gif

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#75 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 27 August 2007 - 02:59 PM

QUOTE (Chefelf @ Aug 27 2007, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nerdy now? Star Wars was always nerdy, my friend. smile.gif


I agree; at least, in my lifespan, it was... wink.gif
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