[Despondent]

Awright, fine. Great observations, MC. But if I want to laugh at SW, I'd rather have that "feel-good" experience from the SWHS where my nephews and I can roll our eyes at each other with a genuine "What were they thinking" exp​ression.

The PT is oh so more sophisticated. But as a chuckle becomes a cringe, I'm still asking "WTF were they thinking? I paid money to see this????"

[Bond]

Well, the PT is golden; compared to the shovel of shit that is the HS, that is.

[Slade]

Wow! Ms. Corvax and JYAMG are back, in the same thread! Maybe it isn't always advantageous of me to hide from these forums for the most part...

I'll be twenty-one in November, and the Prequel Trilogy came out during my High School and early college days. Am I a PT generation? I don't know. I do know that I've always enjoyed A New Hope. Last year I watched ESB and RotJ with my friend, and I laughed and commented on them Mystery Science Theater 3000 style. They're very silly films, you see. Rather campy in this day and age, with some poor quality special effects. But I enjoyed them because they were fun. I could give the special effects a break because the films were made over twenty years ago, and I have respect that they were cutting edge for the time, and done well.
(Except for that wampa incident...) They had a good feel to them, memorable, interesting characters, and a moderately engaging plot to cover for various flaws. The prequels were just very stupid. Poorly done, with bad uses of CGI that eliminate potential suspension of disbelief, with dull stories and weak, stupid, contradictory characters. Nothing carries them. I've seen TPM once or twice, I think. The first time was in theaters, and I found it almost completely unremarkable in my adolescence. I mulled the film over in my mind and found that it was just plain bad in retrospect, to the point where I still haven't even bothered to see AotC. I saw RotS as an older and slightly wiser person in theaters. My friends took me and paid for my ticket because I refused to give the theaters my own money for a film I expected to be terrible, and it was sadly just as bad as I expected. Terrible writing, dull special effects, atrocious acting, a plot that made no sense, Samuel L. Jackson AND Chistopher Lee both getting unfairly killed, ugh. I also laughed out loud at Darth Vader's "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" at the end because it was so ridiculous.

So as a kid and then young adult when I saw these movies, they did absolutely nothing for me. There's no sense of awe that surrounds them culturally like the OT arguably rightfully has. It's no phenomenon, despite however many more solid gold toilets Lucas can purchase via the films and the merchandise. I don't ever want to see the movies again. I could go back and watch the originals, not for a sense of nostaliga (It's impossible for me to have that, of course.), but because the enjoyable bits outweigh the crappy bits.

Also, as I have been reading this thread I've noticed that every now and then people will mention a lack of good sci-fi films in recent years. I keep thinking "GAH! Firefly and Serenity!" in response to these claims. It doesn't have the huge sweeping cultural impact, but it was a fantastic show and a mighty-fine movie, which only suffered because it had to be made for people who didn't watch the series and become irate when t was cancelled early - you know, normal people.

I flee once more. I may be back if this topic is the most recently posted on the next time I'm crusing around the forums. Good to see you, JYAMG and Ms. Corvax! Don't be strangers around other parts of the forums.

[Just your average movie goer]

Hey, Slade. Good to see you again - and in the Star Wars forums no less.

And... Madam Corvax! I haven't seen you in ages! What a great little re-union we're having here. I wonder if we'll see any more of our old friends.

I've gotta say though, I'm sorry you're so put off Star Wars now that you didn't even look at those DVDs. Although, I can understand you not wanting a Star Wars DVD collection the size of my Lord of the Rings DVD collection (wow, you remember that). I cut that down by the way actually - I gave the Japanese versions to my brother and now I've just got the two sets I bought in Korea (the theatrical editions and the extended editions). I was recently confronted with new editions in the shops that had the theatrical versions and the extended versions on one disc... which was annoying (I mean why do they always give more to the buyer who isn't initially interested and gyp the buyer who supports them from the get-go?). You'll be pleased to know though that I resisted this marketing ploy.

As for the Holiday Special, I haven't seen it but it sounds pretty unbearable. There's no need, I suppose, to go into the details here though - as Chefelf has bravely endured this thing and written a review for it. I'd say that it'd be probably be worse than the prequels. At least with the prequels, you can laugh at them. While "Sand is rough and gets in your clothes but you're really smooth" isn't a great pick up line, it is very funny and I suppose you could give any of those movies your own private Mystery Science Theatre 3000 treatment. Having said that though, the end of Attack of the Clones where there's a million lasers and not an ounce of sense is pretty unbearable - as it makes you feel dizzy and nauseous. I'm damn sure that scene would set off seizures in those people who are prone. Don't forget though, as Slade said:

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

is still damn funny.

I'm not sure about Serenity though, Slade. Two of my brothers went to see that. I remember their conversation as they came through the door after they got home. One of them was saying "Oh, you should have stayed around. It became so bad, it was funny after you walked out." and the other was saying "No, it was shit. I can't believe you talked me into seeing that."

After asking them what they were talking about, I got a little run-down of the film and I have to say, it doesn't sound like my cup of tea. Sounds more like a bad sci-fi/horror cross-breed than a good fun sci-fi adventure.

Why can't someone just make a good old sci-fi adventure where you get two warring factions and give us some good space combat scenes, a nice range of interesting locations to add a bit of escapism and some likeable characters we can happily spend two hours with? I mean, it's not rocket science.

Maybe I should just take out the kinkiness and gratuitous bikini scenes from my Starry Nights comic and make that a movie. Actually, that's a good idea. I'll make my own.

I'll get back to you on that in a few years.

[jariten]

I was born in 1980, so although I wasn't part of the set that went to see them when they originally came out, I watched all three of them growing up, even though I never knew what order they were supposed to be in (you were always catching the second half of them on TV), so I naturally feel nostalgic about them.

The thing is, I feel nostalgic about TPM too. Even watching it now kind of takes me back to that summer in 1999, when the world went Star Wars crazy for a few months. I loved it, and can't watch it now without all those memories coming back, much like I can't watch Jedi or whatever without thinking about Christmas in England as a kid.

So I can watch TPM critically, and think "that's a lousy edit", but I find it much more pleasant, to watch it like I do the originals, as a simple fantasy movie that "takes me back".

Clones is a different story, and recently I've become much more on the fence about it. While there are still things I like, the pacing is awful (it dies halfway through) and I still can't get over that fireplace scene. Plus there's an added element of frustration after watching the deleted scenes and seeing how some very good, very human scenes between Padme and Anakin got cut in favour for dialogue about civil war and Nute Gunrays arrest and "sorry m'lady!".

Sith is still excellent.

[Bond]

Sith is still excellent.

I agree. ROTS is the best prequel, followed by TPM and AOTC.

The movies, in order, would be:

1. TESB
2. ROTS
3. ANH
4. TPM
5. ROTJ
6. AOTC

Anyone else up for listing?

[Toru-chan]

Kids films can be adults films, even though what appeals to each can be quite different: Kids are a lot more accepting than adults. Kid's brains are very pliable: They just accept stuff, which makes sense, because as kids their ability to change the world around them is very limited. Better to accept and adapt to it. Biologist Dawkins suggests kids are so accepting of what adults say because they need to be: "Don't swim in the crocodile infested river". Kids that don't listen are "deselected". When kids become teenagers, things start to change. They're no longer so accepting, ask questions and want to know why. By age 25, their brains are very different.

So what's the difference between Raiders I and Raiders II? Both have exciting sights, sounds and adventure that both adults and kids love. Yet Raiders I is an adult and kids movie. Raiders II is strictly a children's movie. Not so much what is there, but what is missing.

I'd say the same thing applies for Star Wars OT vs PT. Both have SFX cum CGI and an adventure background, but in OT you've got cool characters you can care about. It's pretty clear who you're to identify with: Luke, Luke and Luke. Who are you to identify with in TPM? Obi-won or Annakin. The answer is neither. Ewan's Obi-won is already Alec's Obi-won. Jake Lloyd wasn't a good actor: Sure he was a kid, but there are good child actors out there. He wasn't, and never should have been cast: "Yipee!"

Padme was pretty boring. Leia earned her spunk. Padme had it bestowed upon her: http://www.smh.com.a...7462140197.html No one to get excited about. Didn't think much of the introduction of Qui-gon either. Too much pretension: There's a rule in fiction that you show your characters by watching them do, not by talking about them doing it. But when the Jedi's are introduced, we're told by Nute Gunray how fearsome and awesome the Jedi are, but two guys in brown coats are beaten off by a couple of basketball robots, fail to earn our admiration by fighting roger-roger clownbots who never hit anyone ever, meet a dumb ass lizard who they fail to recognize as a racial caricature and slink off to the senate. It failed on every count. It was a crap movie with crappy characters and a crappy plot.

The tension in SW IV/V was missing from TPM. It was a pretty boring ride, and the end was never in doubt. In SW IV you *did not know* there was going to be a big dogfight at the end, and at the end of SW V the rebels got their asses whipped. Didn't see that coming did you?

My theory: SW OT was a kids film and an adults film made when there was no other screen Sci-fi. TPM was just a kids film made at a time when there was lots of other screen Sci-fi.

PS. I saw Serenity. What a crap movie. Think bad and think made for TV. One of the actresses was "gifted". I can't think of anything else nice to say about it.

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 22 August 2007 - 08:09 PM

[civilian_number_two]

I do love ANH, including the ending- but come on, it's stupid. There's nothing in the script to suggest that the R2 units flew the X Wings, everything on screen suggests they did nothing except repair damage.

Lucas obviously didn't want to include scenes of Luke training in the X Wing and slow down the pacing at the end, he just hoped you'd swallow it along with the rest of the dodgy stuff. I'll give him that, it's a great ending. Like a lot of SW, it's best not to think about it too much.

Ok, you won't go along with the "droid" answer, my brief effort to make some sort of sci-fi answer for STAR WARS. I then resubmit the notion that it's the mythology of WWII: common men, drawn from all walks of life (that is, not professional soldiers) who find themselves in extraordinary roles: tank driver, special weapons team, fighter or bomber pilot, all with limited training. The idea of a farmboy going from flying one type of place to suddenly being dropped into a dogfight is all part of the American war myth. And again, this has nothing to do with Classical mythology, but with the movies and stories of Lucas's childhood.

I think I agree with most of the "settled dust" commentary, except that I can't say I believe that ROTS is any good at all. I can however say with conviction that since I have not seen it and have seen TPM, SITH is better than TPM.

Jariten, I always think of 1999 as the year that everyone went crazy for THE MATRIX. Also, that was the year we partied like it was the year 2000, pretending that the new Millenium was about to begin, and also the year Moonbase Alpha found themselves lost in deep space when a massive explosion sent Earth's moon drastically out of orbit. I seldom think of TPM; in fact I thought it had come out in 1998.

Madame Corvax, it is always wonderful to see you here.

[Chefelf]

I think I agree with most of the "settled dust" commentary, except that I can't say I believe that ROTS is any good at all. I can however say with conviction that since I have not seen it and have seen TPM, SITH is better than TPM.

Now that the "dust has settled" I have touble remarking on which is better TPM or ROTS. I guess it's ROTS because nothing of substance really happens in the first two movies and all of the plot elements were introduced and concluded in ROTS. I think TPM does a lousier job of setting up the trilogy than ROTS does of closing it. I guess ROTS has it unfair since it had so much work to do.

But, c'mon, General Grievous? I dunno. ROTS rots.

[Madam Corvax]

Thanks, Civ...

But you are right, 1999 was the year of the Martix!I actually saw it in a horrible stuffy movie theater and was awed...But I do remember horrible Pepsi/Taco Bell ads featuring Natalie Portman with this ridiculous hairdo... Lucas should have hooked up with McDonald's (joking there).

Civilian... you do remember Moonbase Alpha...wow...I thought I was the only one... lost for words there...We watched it, my brother and I, wide eyed from excitement on our black-and-white TV in late seventies. I even gave one of my dolls plasticine eyebrows in shape of dots...

I don't think I can grade TPM and ROTS, either. Both have their own very secial badness about them.

I am a bit wounded though that Slade thinks ESB silly. Out of many adjectives silly would never cross my mind.

[Just your average movie goer]

No silly is not a word you'd associate with The Empire Strikes Back. I don't associate it with the original Star Wars either. But I wouldn't worry too much about it. Slade's said outright on this forum that he's not really much of a Star Wars fan a couple of times. I guess it's not really his thing. But that's okay. We still love him.

Jariten, I can understand why you might feel sentimental about going to see The Phantom Menace at the movies. Just seeing the words 'Star Wars' blasting into the void of space gives you a bit of a kick, despite whatever else happens. I suppose if I hadn't known what to expect going in, I may have been more excited about it beforehand. Then at least, I could remember the feeling of being excited. I knew too much before the movie though - and I was bothered from the outset once I knew Anakin was going to be a little kid. I can still remember when I was told that. I immediately said. "I can't see why Lucas thinks it's necessary to show us Anakin's childhood. Any idea how much of the movie it's going to take up before we see him as an adult?"

And you were born in 1980? Cool. Me too. I like to think that's a good sign - being born in the same year that the best of the Star Wars movies came out.

I was surprised though to read your comments about Attack of the Clones. You'd told me you'd changed your mind about that movie a little bit - I didn't realise how much though.

And Bond, shame on you for putting Revenge of the Sith ahead of Star Wars on your list. My list would start with The Empire Strikes Back, followed closely by Star Wars. Then I'd leave a nice big gap and put in Return of the Jedi - if for no other reason than it gives us a chance to see Luke, Han and Leia again. After that, there'd be another gap before Revenge of the Sith. I think, despite General Grievous and the lunacy of how pathetic Anakin's turn to the dark side was, this is the only prequel in which anything of consequence happens. It's just like Chefelf said. All the plot-lines that have any significance to the story start and end here. After that, I'd put The Phantom Menace, which while I hate it, I can see that it's at least still coherent... unlike Attack of the Clones, which I shall put at the bottom of the list. Although really Bond, I detest ranking the six films because as far as I'm concerned, they're not related.

Toru-Chan, you raised many good points. I don't have anything further to add to them except my support. Kids are more accepting of a wider range of things, quite true. There's no point of reference that the audience can latch onto in the prequels. Rather than feeling like you're in the room with these people, you feel like you're looking at them through a window (and wondering why you're bothering). And yep, there's much more tension in the original films and you don't know what's going to happen next (except in Return of the Jedi where everything that's going to happen in the movie is laid out explicitly for you at the beginning).

And Civilian, nice to see you're still trying hard to goad somebody (anybody) into defending Lucas' modern myth crap. Although the lack of contenders suggests to me that nobody else here buys into it either.

And 1999 - the year of The Matrix? Possibly but I detested that film. It was so pretentious and over-rated. Good for a what-if conversation with your buddies during a break between lectures at university but hardly sufficient material for a two hour movie (let alone a trilogy).

I think your other suggestion was closer to the mark, Civilian - the year half the people in the world lost the ability to understand basic addition and thought that somehow the completion of 1999 years equalled the passing of two milleniums. I remember trying to patiently explain to people how that was not the case (as one might explain something to a child) and thinking "Why the hell do I have to explain this at all?" It's not as if these people think that 21 is the next number after 19. Weird.

[civilian_number_two]

My STAR WARS hierarchy, in terms of how much I liked the films when I first saw them, with some adjustment for long-term survival, goes like this:

EPISODE V: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK
STAR WARS
EPISODE VI: RETURN OF THE JEDI

That is all.

As for THE MATRIX, sure it was pretentious and had loads of this nonsense "prophecy" and "the One" crap, and yeah everyone dressed like they needed a calendar for Christmas, but the music was great and it had a lot of silly fun kung fu. I thought it was a blast.

This post has been edited by civilian_number_two: 23 August 2007 - 02:32 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

EPISODE V: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK
STAR WARS
EPISODE VI: RETURN OF THE JEDI

That is all.

Yeah, that's an easier way of doing it.

And all right, I'll give you The Matrix's silly kung fu. Still never understood why some people put it in their "movies you'd like to see more than once" basket.

[Chefelf]

As for THE MATRIX, sure it was pretentious and had loads of this nonsense "prophecy" and "the One" crap, and yeah everyone dressed like they needed a calendar for Christmas, but the music was great and it had a lot of silly fun kung fu. I thought it was a blast.

Oh yeah. I remember sitting there in the theatre during the first kung fu sequence in the dojo and wishing that that scene would never end. That movie definitely changed a lot in the action genre, regardless of its flaws.

It's too bad that they felt the need to turn it into a trilogy. It worked so well as a standalone film.

[jariten]

I didn't rate The Matrix much either.