[J m HofMarN]

I read a review written by a Starwars virgin, and it made me think of something that had thus far escaped me. The movies, when watched in order, completely screw any of the surprises from eps 5 and 6. I mean, we've talked before about lack of subtlety, but this is off the charts. It seems to me the thing to do would have been to not reveal the identities of the kids, not show Vader hanging with Sidious openly, and just have the birth of the twins without them being named and a hint that they'll be split up, and Anakin getting pwned and left for dead with a strong hint that Sidious is going to try to find him.

Either that or don't make prequels at all.

[Bond]

I don't think it's supposed to be a surprise anymore. It's supposed to flow from I-VI in linear order. If you watched them like that, the recently-developed story arcs Lucas crafted into the PT would have their ends made glaringly obvious. As such, Vader's revelation is something he's admitting not only to Luke, but to himself.

Similarly, the new Emperor scene in ESB, which so confounded most of the people on these boards when it was first released in 2004, now seems like a stroke of genius post-2005: Vader is trying to cover up that he knows of the existence of his son! This, in light of the later scene in which Vader attempts to get Luke to join him, only reinforces that Vader has decided to start scheming against his master ever since he learned of his son. If you find it spoils a twist, so be it; I found it brilliant.

[julie123]

No, no, No!!

I will never forget watching ESB at the cinema in the 80s when Vader told Luke that he was his father, and the subsequent frisson of shock and horror that went around the theatre.

Trust me, Lucas trying to fix his fuckups regarding the prequels/original trilogy will never make up for the fact that kids new to Star Wars who watch the films in sequence, will never have the same experience.

[Similarly, the new Emperor scene in ESB, which so confounded most of the people on these boards when it was first released in 2004, now seems like a stroke of genius post-2005: Vader is trying to cover up that he knows of the existence of his son! This, in light of the later scene in which Vader attempts to get Luke to join him, only reinforces that Vader has decided to start scheming against his master ever since he learned of his son. If you find it spoils a twist, so be it; I found it brilliant.
[/quote]

[KurganX]

No, no, No!!

I will never forget watching ESB at the cinema in the 80s when Vader told Luke that he was his father, and the subsequent frisson of shock and horror that went around the theatre.

Trust me, Lucas trying to fix his fuckups regarding the prequels/original trilogy will never make up for the fact that kids new to Star Wars who watch the films in sequence, will never have the same experience.

[Similarly, the new Emperor scene in ESB, which so confounded most of the people on these boards when it was first released in 2004, now seems like a stroke of genius post-2005: Vader is trying to cover up that he knows of the existence of his son! This, in light of the later scene in which Vader attempts to get Luke to join him, only reinforces that Vader has decided to start scheming against his master ever since he learned of his son. If you find it spoils a twist, so be it; I found it brilliant.

But it's really not necessary, since Vader's plotting against the Emperor was already there in 1980.

The only difference is that this scene beats you over the head with it in case you harbored any thoughts that maybe Vader was just blustering to Luke in the Cloud City scene to get him to come along (and it was just a lie).

Personally though I was thinking more along the lines that George didn't even watch the rest of the film since 1997, and he just forgot what he'd already established... wanting to give us the impression that Palpatine knew more about Luke than Vader, and Vader had to force himself to come to terms with the truth (the relationship between Vader and the Emperor more as it is in the prequels--with Palpatine as the evil father figure and Vader as his deluded slave, vs. what it was in the OT with them more as equals with Vader being loyal to him outwardly but harboring thoughts of betrayal later on).

I mean, otherwise, what would you think? That Vader trying to get Luke on his side vs. the Emperor was a spur of the moment thing he came up with for laughs? Clearly from the beginning of the movie Vader was obsessed with FINDING Skywalker (his son) not killing him as the Emperor wanted (and later claimed he wanted Vader to do, but Vader convinced him to let him turn the boy instead).

So the 2004 change is completely unecessary.

Basically Lucas just wanted to "make ESB look more like ROTJ" by pasting in the same actor with similar makeup (see ChefElf's hilarious Darth Sideous look alike contest), but then in typical Lucas fashion, couldn't leave well enough along and had to change the dialog too.

Previously we never hear the name "Anakin Skywalker" until 1983. But this just beats it over the head of people who have seen the stories in "chronological order" (as Lucas now claims is the way he wants it) that Vader is Luke and Leia's father, diminishing the later reveal.

[Bond]

Well, before that, Sidious assumed that Vader believed him when he said Padme had died, inferring that her children had died with her. When Vader found out his boy was alive and well, he knew Sids had planted a stinker up his *ss, and thus began plotting to destroy him.

I like how Lucas made Anakin's little tirade on Mustafar so similar to his one on Cloud City. It's as if he's convincing Padme all over again:

ROTS: I won't lose you the way I lost my mother! I've become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of and I've done it for you. To protect you... Don't you see, we don't have to run away anymore. I have brought peace to the Republic. I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him, and together you and I can rule the galaxy. Make things the way we want them to be.

TESB: There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy... Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has forseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together, we can rule the galaxy as father and son. Come with me. It is the only way.

See? Although I do wish he would have said "Don't make me destroy you" instead of "Don't make me kill you" to Obi-Wan later on in the scene, it works out all right.

Similarly:

ROTS: Darth Vader: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the Dark Side as you do. I have brought peace, freedom, justice and security to my new empire!
Obi-Wan Kenobi: Your new empire?

ANH: Obi-Wan Kenobi: For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire.

See?

[civilian_number_two]

It's not brilliant, Bond. Originally, Lucas claimed that the Special Editions would be to clean up bad effects, and to add details that he'd always wanted but at the time had lacked the budget for. So we get the cloud car flying around Bespin, and the windows are open throughout the city. Matte lines are removed here and there; fantastic.

Coming out and introducing new scenes has nothing to do with budget restraints or the evolution of special effects. Every such effort was designed to make the PT flow better into the OT; that is, a tacit admission that he'd changed his storyline, that he had never planned everything from the beginning. It's worse than the retconning of most sequels and prequels; it's essentially the same as recalling every copy of SPIDERMAN just so you could add Sandman to the Ben Parker scene.

Anyway, I don't care that he did it. It's his effort to claim he didn't do it that's so Orwellian. Pretending you'd written nine, then six, movies all at once and started making them from the middle trilogy is a crazy lie when anyone looking at them can see what a lie it is. It's insulting.

[mireaux7]

Anyway, I don't care that he did it. It's his effort to claim he didn't do it that's so Orwellian. Pretending you'd written nine, then six, movies all at once and started making them from the middle trilogy is a crazy lie when anyone looking at them can see what a lie it is. It's insulting.

thats always bothered me, that Lucas had originally stated that there were NINE stories, then some 25-30 years later, we get this line billed onto Episode III: "The Saga is COMPLETE"

thats almost like Lucas telling off his fans,..."Fuck!, Im tired, and I dont want to do any more of these movies!..I have enough of your money already..go away..leave me alone..Im not making VII, VIII & IX!!!!"

Oh come on, Georgie!..give the fans what they want...we are the reason you became a filthy rich bastard in the first place, so you need to give in to what the fans are wanting here.

and its not like making star wars movies these days was anything like making them in the late 70's and early 80's...you dont have to fuck with hideous rubber puppets, models that take forever to build, crap that doesnt work the way its supposed to....no,.its much easier these days. your producution staff is at least 10 fold larger than it was in those days...and youve got soo much damn money...you can make any effect in the world possible...nothing stops you...

...besides your own arrogance and laziness. its pretty arrogant to try to lie and say the saga ends at 6 movies,.when you know damn well, that there was supposed to be nine all along. Lucas, you dont even hardly do anything much anymore when it comes to making the films. you sit there in your comfy chair, and rattle your head off about your ideas, and show your staff everything youve written in your Mead notepads...then your staff gets to work, draws up the storyboards, designs the costumes, the models-both computer and metal, plastic, wood and glue.

and all you do is shake your head yes or no to indicate approvals or what changes should be made. thats all you do these days. and if youre too lazy to do that for VII, VIII & IX, then I say its high time to sell off the rights to the stories for these next three installments...let someone else make them..you did that for ESB...do the same for these three as well.

cause they will get made, eventually,.bet on it..whether youre still alive, or rotting in your grave. the fan support is way too high..the money to be made is enormous, and hollywood has nothing but open ears, and is salvating at all the cash to be raked in.

This post has been edited by mireaux7: 25 August 2007 - 01:49 PM

[Bond]

Well, every saga deserves an even break, I guess...