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If You Had To Kill a Dictator... Would You Do It?

#46 User is offline   Cyzyk Icon

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Posted 17 August 2007 - 10:36 PM

Rationality is good. Despite having good individual points, you aren't creating a compelling full picture on which a person can agree with you.
Tolerance is another word for Apathy
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#47 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 12:43 AM

I trust your rebuttles will be forthcoming?

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#48 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 06:15 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 18 2007, 04:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My intent wasn't to put down Christ, and he did indeed set down ideals of social justice, etc, which motivated Catholics in Cuba to join the revolution. A Catholic priest once saved Fidel's life during the war for liberation, actually. So yes, Christ certainly did do good work on earth as well, but it was a different time. Would that have worked as well in Cuba? Probably not. Apples and oranges, like I said.



No, Christ and Cuba are not apple and oranges because social injustice is social injustice, wherever and whenever it happens.

You talk as if the time when Christ was "alive" was less intolerant/capitalistic/violent etc than in our present day world! His message of tolerance, love and understanding 2000 years ago is just as valid now, and yes would work well in Cuba: if the American Government and rightwing so-called practicing Catholics/Protestants would allow it to.

Like Guevara, Christ took a stance and changed the status quo. So, yes, I believe that if Christ was alive here on earth today, his ideals of social justice etc, would work for Cuba - why else would Catholic priests get involved and stay involved in the revolution?
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#49 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 10:23 AM

QUOTE (julie123 @ Aug 18 2007, 03:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, Christ and Cuba are not apple and oranges because social injustice is social injustice, wherever and whenever it happens.


Somehow I don’t think you can compare the corrupt and lazy government of Fulgencio Batista to the bloodthirsty Roman protectorate of Judea.

QUOTE (julie123 @ Aug 18 2007, 03:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You talk as if the time when Christ was "alive" was less intolerant/capitalistic/violent etc than in our present day world! His message of tolerance, love and understanding 2000 years ago is just as valid now, and yes would work well in Cuba: if the American Government and rightwing so-called practicing Catholics/Protestants would allow it to.


Do you honestly believe that the left-wingers in the United States government have done anything to normalize relations with Cuba… or any other country the United States has tried to meddle in?

QUOTE (julie123 @ Aug 18 2007, 03:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Like Guevara, Christ took a stance and changed the status quo. So, yes, I believe that if Christ was alive here on earth today, his ideals of social justice etc, would work for Cuba - why else would Catholic priests get involved and stay involved in the revolution?


Teachings of Christ? The teachings of Christ have been so distorted since his death I doubt that any Christian bible expresses the views of Christ at all.
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#50 User is offline   Cyzyk Icon

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 12:21 PM

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Somehow I don’t think you can compare the corrupt and lazy government of Fulgencio Batista to the bloodthirsty Roman protectorate of Judea.


So bloodthirsty that they had the largest and most civilized nation in the world at the time. So bloodthirsty that Judea INVITED THEM IN TO TAKE OVER, and so bloodthirsty they built massively expensive public structures and roads all over it.

Judea was one of the most rebellious provinces in the Roman Empire. Jerusalem was leveled because the Judeans rebelled multiple times, resulting in the Romans stationing a larger force in the area than the rest of the Middle East.

XII Legion Fulminata was pretty much permanantly assigned to the area.

The fact you have a relatively weak grasp of either history or realpolitik makes me doubt you've any idea what you're talking about.
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#51 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 01:45 PM

QUOTE
Like Guevara, Christ took a stance and changed the status quo. So, yes, I believe that if Christ was alive here on earth today, his ideals of social justice etc, would work for Cuba - why else would Catholic priests get involved and stay involved in the revolution?


The peaceful methods espoused would not have worked as well in Cuba as putting a bullet into anyone who remained faithful to the capitalist hedgemony. That's my view of things. Christ surely did lay a great deal of groundwork for the views that lead to the current Cuban system though. Castro was a Catholic for much of his early life and many of his ideas about justice and equality came more from that than from Marx. He only began to really get into Marxism in college and that was because it gelled wi th his ideas, not because he was looking for ideas.

QUOTE
Somehow I don’t think you can compare the corrupt and lazy government of Fulgencio Batista to the bloodthirsty Roman protectorate of Judea.


Somehow I think Batista and his US backed puppet wranglers were the more bloodthirsty set.

QUOTE
Do you honestly believe that the left-wingers in the United States government have done anything to normalize relations with Cuba… or any other country the United States has tried to meddle in?


Howard Dean favored lifting the terrorist embargo, Dennis Kucinich does as well and Barack Obama is in favor of visiting Castro to have hte first talks in, well, forever between the two countries. There are decent people in the US, they're just never going to be allowed to do their thing.

QUOTE
and so bloodthirsty they built massively expensive public structures and roads all over it.


"Alright! Aside from sanitation, roads, irrigation, law and order, medicine, and trade what have the bloody Romans ever done for us!?"

"Nothing!"

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#52 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 18 August 2007 - 02:48 PM

huh.gif Czyzk, you'll never get anywhere with anyone with your appeal to tradition argument, and you're surely intelligent enough to know that just because a system of government has failed doesn't mean that it isn't possible to uphold it. There are many ways for social structure to crumble. It's foolish to jump right to "The whole form of government is broken." The US is a corrupt, hypocritical dinosaur of a government, and it thrives because it gets its fingers and guns everywhere it can. Maybe that's "realpolitik", but I'm still going to protest it, because while it works, it's morally repugnant, and the world is in a place where it can do far, far better.

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#53 User is offline   Cyzyk Icon

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 02:05 AM

I'll not deny that the US government could be better. A lot better than what it is. Ironically, I find the corruptions you pick on to be some of its lesser problems, but that's a question of perspective.

As for getting our guns everywhere we can, the AK47 is the weapon of obnoxious people around the globe, not the M16A2. Now, as to how often that AK has been paid for with "foreign aid" I can't say.

QUOTE
you're surely intelligent enough to know that just because a system of government has failed doesn't mean that it isn't possible to uphold it


That's like saying because I don't like brussel sprouts as much as potato chips, I'll continue to eat potato chips in the hope they will suddenly become could. How many times must a system of social engineering fail in a spectacular revolution with a mass of bodies before you'll admit it just doesn't work?

I'll agree nobody has implemented what you call real communism, just as nobody has implemented real democracy in a large country or my theory of technocracy. But I can point at systems that share some traits of each, and gauge their success. Businesses run by educated, ambitious, and competant people thrive. When we give money to the unemployed, we get more unemployed. When we give money to the military, we get expensive defense contracts for toilet seats.

And when we gave money to the eggheads in the space program, we got computers, better velcro, and bragging rights to the moon.

How to kill a dictator? Get him to hire a vizier/chancellor/advisor. Those guys ALWAYS kill their bosses sooner or later.
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#54 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 11:10 AM

QUOTE (Cyzyk @ Aug 19 2007, 02:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How to kill a dictator? Get him to hire a vizier/chancellor/advisor. Those guys ALWAYS kill their bosses sooner or later.


Finally, we get back on topic! wink.gif

It's understandable, how you all got tired of discussing this one thing and shifted off into different gears; hence, seeing as this is my thread, you can talk about it as much as you want.

Go ahead; make your days. happy.gif
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#55 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 03:17 AM

QUOTE (Cobnat @ Aug 18 2007, 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do you honestly believe that the left-wingers in the United States government have done anything to normalize relations with Cuba… or any other country the United States has tried to meddle in?
Teachings of Christ? The teachings of Christ have been so distorted since his death I doubt that any Christian bible expresses the views of Christ at all.



No, No, I don't believe that the left wingers in the United States government ..., why are you assuming here that I do? I talked about and compared the United States government to right-wing Christians, two entirely different bodies. I was not inferring therefore that left-wingers in the United Sates government have done anything to help Cuba. You are reading things here that I am not saying.

How do you know if the teachings of Christ have been distorted since his death and the Bible therefore does not express his views? Were you alive then? Way to make a lucid point here. Alongside this, there are a lot of Socialists (i.e. members of The Labour Party) who are also Christians in Great Britain (where I live) who support the Cuban government and what they are trying to do - who should be telling them that they are not acting as Christians as you appear to depict them - you?

Finally, you ask if I "can compare the corrupt and lazy government of Fulgencio Batista to the bloodthirsty Roman protectorate of Judea." Does that mean therefore that Jesus Christ is more of an hero than Che Guvera? Wow, who knew??!!
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#56 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 05:29 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 18 2007, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Somehow I think Batista and his US backed puppet wranglers were the more bloodthirsty set.


Batista was more corrupt and lazy then bloodthirsty.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 18 2007, 10:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Howard Dean favored lifting the terrorist embargo, Dennis Kucinich does as well and Barack Obama is in favor of visiting Castro to have hte first talks in, well, forever between the two countries. There are decent people in the US, they're just never going to be allowed to do their thing.


I meant the left-wingers who were in power like Johnson, Carter and Clinton.

QUOTE (Cyzyk @ Aug 18 2007, 09:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So bloodthirsty that they had the largest and most civilized nation in the world at the time.


Does that mean they didn’t slaughter millions in their campaigns against Carthage, the Celts and the Germanic tribes? Not to mention how many cultures the Romans destroyed for the sake of progress.

QUOTE (Cyzyk @ Aug 18 2007, 09:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So bloodthirsty that Judea INVITED THEM IN TO TAKE OVER, and so bloodthirsty they built massively expensive public structures and roads all over it.


I think it should be noted that the Israeli dictator who invited the Romans in was an Arab and if you have read the bible and I expect that you have; he ordered the deaths of all male children when he heard the news of the birth of Jesus.

And as far as all the good the Romans did:

QUOTE (Cyzyk @ Aug 18 2007, 09:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Judea was one of the most rebellious provinces in the Roman Empire. Jerusalem was leveled because the Judeans rebelled multiple times, resulting in the Romans stationing a larger force in the area than the rest of the Middle East.


So they build expensive public structures and roads and then destroy it all. How very Roman of them.

QUOTE (Cyzyk @ Aug 18 2007, 09:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The fact you have a relatively weak grasp of either history or realpolitik makes me doubt you've any idea what you're talking about.


How petty your insults are.

QUOTE (julie123 @ Aug 20 2007, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, No, I don't believe that the left wingers in the United States government ..., why are you assuming here that I do? I talked about and compared the United States government to right-wing Christians, two entirely different bodies. I was not inferring therefore that left-wingers in the United Sates government have done anything to help Cuba. You are reading things here that I am not saying.


The United States government, like every other government on the planet, is as left-wing or right-wing as its leader is. Currently there is a bible toting, alcoholic, arrogant and uncharismatic right-winger. Before him was a saxophone toting, womanizing, arrogant and charismatic left-winger. Thought regardless of wether the U.S government is left-wing or right-wing, to every person outside the United States and especially those people in the countries the United States has screwed up; the United States government will always be fascist and its people will always appear to be mindless sheeple… I don’t know where I was going with this…

Regardless; my point is that a government and a country are defined by the person in power, it doesn’t matter what style of government is or which side the political arrow leans on.

QUOTE (julie123 @ Aug 20 2007, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How do you know if the teachings of Christ have been distorted since his death and the Bible therefore does not express his views? Were you alive then? Way to make a lucid point here. Alongside this, there are a lot of Socialists (i.e. members of The Labour Party) who are also Christians in Great Britain (where I live) who support the Cuban government and what they are trying to do - who should be telling them that they are not acting as Christians as you appear to depict them - you?


Firstly, I never said communism was anti-Christian or vis versa. Secondly, since Christ did not write the bible and since it was written several generations after his death, I do not think it wise to take it all to heart.

QUOTE (julie123 @ Aug 20 2007, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Finally, you ask if I "can compare the corrupt and lazy government of Fulgencio Batista to the bloodthirsty Roman protectorate of Judea." Does that mean therefore that Jesus Christ is more of an hero than Che Guvera? Wow, who knew??!!


I didn’t know we were debating who was the bigger hero. I thought we were debating who made a bigger stand.
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#57 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 11:06 AM

QUOTE (Cobnat @ Aug 20 2007, 05:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Firstly, I never said communism was anti-Christian or vis versa. Secondly, since Christ did not write the bible and since it was written several generations after his death, I do not think it wise to take it all to heart.


Who said he ever died at all? mellow.gif

Who said he ever lived at all? ohmy.gif
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#58 User is offline   julie123 Icon

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 01:30 PM

View PostCobnat, on Aug 20 2007, 11:29 AM, said:

The United States government, like every other government on the planet, is as left-wing or right-wing as its leader is. Currently there is a bible toting, alcoholic, arrogant and uncharismatic right-winger. Before him was a saxophone toting, womanizing, arrogant and charismatic left-winger. Thought regardless of wether the U.S government is left-wing or right-wing, to every person outside the United States and especially those people in the countries the United States has screwed up; the United States government will always be fascist and its people will always appear to be mindless sheeple… I don’t know where I was going with this…


Neither do I, but that’s the point isn't it? I respond to a statement made by you, and you counter my rejoinder by taking it out of all context to what is being said. It appears to be a device, just so that you can rant on an on about the ever so corrupt United States Government.

[/quote]Firstly, I never said communism was anti-Christian or vis versa. [/quote]

I never said you did, all I have been trying to say here is that it is valid to juxtapose Che Guevara and Jesus Christ because although their causes were very different, both ended up dying for them.[/quote]

[/quote] Secondly, since Christ did not write the bible and since it was written several generations after his death, I do not think it wise to take it all to heart. [/quote]

Very convenient argument, but granted. However, I will certainly take to heart the bit about turning the other cheek. And yes I am joking.


.[/quote]I didn’t know we were debating who was the bigger hero. I thought we were debating who made a bigger stand. [/quote]

I was joking about the bigger hero remark. You know after you stated that Jesus lived in more dangerous times aka the bloodthirsty Roman protectorate of Judea versus the corrupt and lazy government of Fulgencio Batista observation.

However, the bigger stand bit - please?! How can you even go there - both men died for what they believed in - how can you measure the bigger stand here? I fear that you are going to tell me though.
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#59 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 01:07 AM

Interesting fact I just remembered. You stated that Che Guevara was a failure, but of the two countries whose governments the US saved, both are now in the hands of leftist leaders. Bolivia is ruled by an indiginous leftist, the same people Gueavara tried to help, and Congo is ruled by Joseph Kabila, who after fighting alongside Guevara against Mobutu Seseseko (a US backed villain) returned 30 years later to finally oust him.

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#60 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 25 August 2007 - 01:30 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Aug 24 2007, 10:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Interesting fact I just remembered. You stated that Che Guevara was a failure, but of the two countries whose governments the US saved, both are now in the hands of leftist leaders. Bolivia is ruled by an indiginous leftist, the same people Gueavara tried to help, and Congo is ruled by Joseph Kabila, who after fighting alongside Guevara against Mobutu Seseseko (a US backed villain) returned 30 years later to finally oust him.


Guevara was not the cause of the populist-leftist uprisings in South America and Africa; if anyone helped change those governments then it was Castro but even then it was the local populace and not outsiders who eventually got rid of the puppet governments of the United States.

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 25 August 2007 - 01:32 AM

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