[Bond]

Assassination is not a legitimate revolutionary tool and only creates sympathy for the victim. A trial is vastly preferable in that it allows the villain to be faced with their crimes and if at all possible by their victims before justice is carried out.

That didn't really happen with Saddam's trial, though, did it?

[Cyzyk]

Thankfully they are only native to the United States. I would hate if there were rich, white, racist, Christian bigots in Australia.

If you believe there's nothing worse in Australia, you're an idiot. You've got Aum; we don't.

And remember that the the two greatest killers of the 20th century were poor atheists. Two men who claimed their empires would see the end of God and last forever.

The dictators are dead, and so's Nieztche. The Pope still sits in Rome after 2000 years, dithering over the Universal Indult for the Tridentine Mass. Every Sunday, I serve that Mass, which has had only minor changes since the Council of Trent in the 1550s.

That's a wee bit older than petty Communism, and we've produced a few saints in that time who are remembered more fondly than Lenin, whose revolution killed millions, or aggressive terrorism of Che Guevara.

[Bond]

That's a wee bit older than petty Communism, and we've produced a few saints in that time who are remembered more fondly than Lenin, whose revolution killed millions, or aggressive terrorism of Che Guevara.

That's very true; a couple of them (most of them) went pretty much batsh*t on "heathens" in the name of their God. That's a pretty scary thought...

[J m HofMarN]

Lenin liberated all of Russia slavery while the E.O. Church sat about doing nothing for the starving serfs. Che Guevara and President Castro were aided by many many members of the Catholic church to end american tyrany in their country and once again free its people from virtual slavery. And after Jesus, Doctor Guevara, who I might add was martyred just as savagely as Christ, is the most recognized figure on earth.

And just like Christ, his ideals are outlawed and his name is constantly smeared by people like you, because the great empire is afraid of what he said and did. So, it stands to reason, that if this were first century Palestine you'd be high-fiving Pilate and congratulating him on ridding the world of another criminal, because you sure do seem to toe the party line pretty well.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 16 August 2007 - 08:45 PM

[Cyzyk]

Che Guevara is a terrorist who initiated fruitless revolutions that killed thousands. Jesus Christ died specifically to minimize bloodshed. Comparing them is idiotic.

[Cobnat]

If you believe there's nothing worse in Australia, you're an idiot. You've got Aum; we don't.

I was making a joke about how even though we might have white, racist, “Christian” bigots here in Australia; at least they are not rich.

And remember that the the two greatest killers of the 20th century were poor atheists. Two men who claimed their empires would see the end of God and last forever.

Who are you talking about?

Keep in mind that Heinrich Himmler who was basically the brains behind all the Nazi war crimes was a devout Catholic.

The dictators are dead, and so's Nieztche. The Pope still sits in Rome after 2000 years, dithering over the Universal Indult for the Tridentine Mass. Every Sunday, I serve that Mass, which has had only minor changes since the Council of Trent in the 1550s.

If you are Catholic then you are not a Christian for believing that a man of flesh can forgive sins is against the word of God for only God can forgive sins. ZING!

That's a wee bit older than petty Communism, and we've produced a few saints in that time who are remembered more fondly than Lenin, whose revolution killed millions, or aggressive terrorism of Che Guevara.

I would hardly call it Lenin’s Revolution. There were many Communist factions, anti-Tsarist factions and anti-Russian factions who fought on the side of the Bolsheviks. Lenin just outmanoeuvred them all.

Che Guevara is a terrorist who initiated fruitless revolutions that killed thousands. Jesus Christ died specifically to minimize bloodshed. Comparing them is idiotic.

Guevara was a failure who was betrayed by one of his best friends which led to his death and Christ was a failure who was betrayed by one of his best friends which led to his death.

Though you have to keep in mind that Christ did absolutely dick all to minimize bloodshed in the world. All he did was start a Jewish cult that became main stream religion in Europe after a crazy Roman emperor decided that the Gods his people had been following for the past 1000 years were fake.

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 17 August 2007 - 03:44 AM

[J m HofMarN]

Che Guevara is a terrorist who initiated fruitless revolutions that killed thousands. Jesus Christ died specifically to minimize bloodshed. Comparing them is idiotic.

Yes yes, everyone the US opposes is a terrorist. Mini-true thinks you're double plus good, I'm sure.

You completely missed my point in comparing them. How can you claim that you're such a great Christian when clearly if you lived during the Roman empire you'd have followed their party line as faithfully as you do the American empire's?

And no, Jesus didn't die to minimize earthly suffering. If so he'd be regarded as a complete screw up. He died to save people's souls. It's true he didnt advocate violence, but hey, that's his choice. If you want to save people's souls, yeah, peace is the way to go. But if you want to feed starving kids in Cuba whose parents get paid pennies a day to slave in an American sugar plantation, you might want to snatch up a Kalashnikov.

I'll give another example of a "terrorist" who actually did gain religious status, among Catholics no less: The woman Che Guevara admired, Eva Peron. She's venerated as a Saint in much of Argentina, and was recognized by the pope for her works. And yet many right wingers still call her a fascist or terrorist. Anyone who helps the poor is going to get that label.

It's comparing apples and oranges really, and I'm not trying to put either on the other's level, since one of them helped a lot of people on earth to learn to read, gain medical care, have enough to eat, etc, and the other saved the souls of (depending on how nutty a sect you follow) billions of people or a few people who happen to burn down the right number of abortion clinics or Jews.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 17 August 2007 - 04:51 AM

[julie123]

Interesting, because I agree with your sentiments regarding Che Guevara, although to my mind Fidel Castro should really get the praise for this.

However, you couldn't be more wrong re your depiction of Jesus Christ. As far as I'm concerned he was the first Socialist (the European kind). For the time in which he lived, this guy was just as much a revolutionary as Guevara, the difference was that he didn't carry a gun. Christ did much more than save souls, although some may believe that's enough in of itself. He preached tolerance, understanding, loving each other etc, etc. This may not seem much nowadays, but remember it got him crucified. The Sermon on the Mount serves as a lesson to mankind in much the same manner as ensuring that people get fed, can read etc.

Like Che Guevara, Christ was not afraid to die for what he believed in. Stop putting him down, just because some prick is using him to make an asinine point.

It's comparing apples and oranges really, and I'm not trying to put either on the other's level, since one of them helped a lot of people on earth to learn to read, gain medical care, have enough to eat, etc, and the other saved the souls of (depending on how nutty a sect you follow) billions of people or a few people who happen to burn down the right number of abortion clinics or Jews.

[Cyzyk]

You completely missed my point in comparing them. How can you claim that you're such a great Christian when clearly if you lived during the Roman empire you'd have followed their party line as faithfully as you do the American empire's?

For one thing, I don't follow the party line. I consider this country's leadership by either of the two big parties to be amoral, ineffective, and ultimately bad for the country. By nature I'm an anarchist, but I'm intelligent enough to realize that law is a neccesity of order. For this reason, I support technocracy. We have been developing sciences for sociology, psychology, civil engineering, and so on for over a century; why should we be ruled by lawyers (who are trained to quibble and lie) and generals (who are trained to kill)? Actual experts on political issues exist, and they should be the ones running the government, not advising those who do.

Keep in mind that Heinrich Himmler who was basically the brains behind all the Nazi war crimes was a devout Catholic.

Um, no. Read Mein Kampf, read about the massacres of non-Jewish Poles, and read up on the fact the Nazis killed about two million people for being Catholics. Himmler did not mastermind everything. Next, read the Catechism; you can't be a devout Catholic and kill people for their religion.

So it wasn't just Himmler, and lip service aside, Himmler wasn't a Catholic.

Do you like Communism? Do you like Stalin's purges? The two things are not entirely the same thing. The same is true of this situation, only moreso.

Guevara was a failure who was betrayed by one of his best friends which led to his death and Christ was a failure who was betrayed by one of his best friends which led to his death.

Guevara got a lot of people killed in order to fail. Christ died as part of succeeding; if you believe he was God, coming back from the dead rather mitigates what you're calling "failure".

Meanwhile, Guevara's crony Castro is running what could be a prosperous nation into the ground to serve his antiquidated notions of government. Perhaps Guevara could have fixed that before wandering off to waste time and lives in other continents.

And after Jesus, Doctor Guevara, who I might add was martyred just as savagely as Christ, is the most recognized figure on earth.

Actually, that'd be Pikachu. Your peculiar obsession with a failed revolutionary is almost amusing. How about you idolize Lenin or Mao instead, since they got their revolutions to work and turned their countries into the happy places they are today? I can't see Guevara as magically creating a paradise on the formula that bred modern Russia or China.

Communism is a great idea. So is democracy (and republics, like America). None of these systems works out the way it was intended to.

[Cobnat]

Um, no. Read Mein Kampf, read about the massacres of non-Jewish Poles, and read up on the fact the Nazis killed about two million people for being Catholics.

The Pope at the time endorsed the Nazi regime which in turn gave the Nazis massive prestige among Catholics. The Nazis killed Poles not because they were Catholic but because they were Slavs.

Himmler did not mastermind everything.

No; he just masterminded the Nazi purges, experimentation on human beings and managed several concentration camps in his spare time.

Next, read the Catechism; you can't be a devout Catholic and kill people for their religion.

Except during the Crusades… and Inquisition… and the conquest of the Americas and Africa…

So it wasn't just Himmler, and lip service aside, Himmler wasn't a Catholic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himmler

Himmler also underwent religious turmoil during his studies at Munich Technische Hochschule. In his diaries he claimed to be a devout Catholic, and wrote that he would never turn away from the church.

Do you like Communism? Do you like Stalin's purges? The two things are not entirely the same thing. The same is true of this situation, only moreso.

So then there is a difference between Nazism and the Holocaust?

Guevara got a lot of people killed in order to fail. Christ died as part of succeeding; if you believe he was God, coming back from the dead rather mitigates what you're calling "failure".

Well Guevara hasn’t been dead long enough for anyone to see what impact his death will have upon the world. Remember that Christ became a legend, hundreds of years after his death.

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 17 August 2007 - 11:54 AM

[Cyzyk]

The Pope at the time endorsed the Nazi regime which in turn gave the Nazis massive prestige among Catholics. The Nazis killed Poles not because they were Catholic but because they were Slavs.

No, he didn't "endorse" it, he opposed it. While he didn't make as much noise about it as he could have, this was because he felt he could do more maintaining the Vatican as an independant state where he could hide people fleeing from the Nazis and because pissing off Hitler would simply have gotten him killed. Hitler started his OWN church with a copy of Mein Kampf on the altar. Look it up; I somehow doubt you'll find a line in the Catechism that encourages that.

No; he just masterminded the Nazi purges, experimentation on human beings and managed several concentration camps in his spare time.

Which has nothing to do with this conversation.

Himmler also underwent religious turmoil during his studies at Munich Technische Hochschule. In his diaries he claimed to be a devout Catholic, and wrote that he would never turn away from the church

And I claim that I'm a devout Jedi and can shoot lightning out my ass. Wishing will not make it so, especially in regards to the Catechism, which prohibits his sort of behavior.

Except during the Crusades… and Inquisition… and the conquest of the Americas and Africa…

The Inquisition was carried out in Spain in direct defiance of the Pope's orders. As for imperialism, the English were just as bad as everyone else, and maintained the slave trade longer. You don't have to be Catholic to misbehave; if you look at the Mongols, you'll realize you don't even need to be white or Christian to be horrifically evil.

So then there is a difference between Nazism and the Holocaust?

No, because Nazism is founded on the principle of Aryanism. There's a difference between fascism and the Holocaust. I don't like fascism any more than communism.

Well Guevara hasn’t been dead long enough for anyone to see what impact his death will have upon the world. Remember that Christ became a legend, hundreds of years after his death.

No, we see the impact already. Christ became a symbol for people who died by the hundreds at the hand of the ruling regime. Guevara has his face on the t-shirts of the stupid, shortsighted heirs of capitalism who don't understand that capitalist economics feed the world.

I'm sorry to say this, but your attempts to compare the two are idiotic. One told his followers to lay down their weapons and healed his enemy's ear before walking to his death. The other gave his followers weapons so they could die pointlessly.

One offered eternal salvation, the other the chance to serve under a monolithic, controlling government that has been proven to destroy culture.

[Slade]

I'd just like to point out that the economies and politics of The Soviet Union and present-day China were in no way socialist, communist, or what have you. They were state-capitalist dictatorships.

Now I'll get back to letting you yell at one another. You know the drill. No personal attacks and what-not.

[Cyzyk]

They aren't the happy trippy dream communism people like to talk about. Sadly, the happy trippy dream communism doesn't exist.

For some reason, people have this idea that communism would be better than the American government. For over 200 years, that government has turned a colony (just like India or most of Africa, which are very prosperous countries) into a defining superpower. On the other hand, nobody's ever seen a "real" communist country.

So why worship this dreamy ideal? You make fun of my faith, which at least has a history of saints, miracles, and traditions dating back 2000 years; at the same time, you cling to a few sentences scribbled by a drunken wife-abusing bloke who died a hundred years ago who never had his ideas get incorporated into a real government?

It is illogical and irrational if you consider the reality of the situation.

[Cobnat]

No, he didn't "endorse" it, he opposed it. While he didn't make as much noise about it as he could have, this was because he felt he could do more maintaining the Vatican as an independant state where he could hide people fleeing from the Nazis and because pissing off Hitler would simply have gotten him killed. Hitler started his OWN church with a copy of Mein Kampf on the altar. Look it up; I somehow doubt you'll find a line in the Catechism that encourages that.

The Pope did endorse the Nazis and the Roman Catholic Church even helped get Nazis out of Europe during Operation Ratline and Operation ODESSA. You also forget that Italy did not persecute its local inhabitants so there would be no point in the Pope maintaining the Vatican as an independent state where he could hide people fleeing from the Nazis.

Which has nothing to do with this conversation.

You said he wasn’t the mastermind; I proved you wrong, its ok to be a little unnerved.

And I claim that I'm a devout Jedi and can shoot lightning out my ass. Wishing will not make it so, especially in regards to the Catechism, which prohibits his sort of behavior.

Why do you keep mentioning Catechism? It is obvious that Catholics do not follow the bible since they allow themselves to believe that a man of flesh can forgive sins. Or have you forgotten have no other god but me?

The Inquisition was carried out in Spain in direct defiance of the Pope's orders. As for imperialism, the English were just as bad as everyone else, and maintained the slave trade longer. You don't have to be Catholic to misbehave; if you look at the Mongols, you'll realize you don't even need to be white or Christian to be horrifically evil.

The Inquisition was carried out in Spain on behalf of the Pope. I don’t know which pro-Catholic books you have been reading but it seems to me that you cant get your facts straight.

As for imperialism: England was indeed Protestant but Spain, Portugal, Belgium and France were all Catholic. You should read about the things the Spanish and Portuguese did in Central and South America or what the Belgium’s did in the Congo. But then again, you will probably read the pro-Catholic version of events.

No, because Nazism is founded on the principle of Aryanism. There's a difference between fascism and the Holocaust. I don't like fascism any more than communism.

What the hell? Nothing in those two sentences is coherent.

Regardless. You mentioned Stalin’s purges, which is in fact a part of Communistic belief; the Stalin part of Communism belief. But comparing Communism and Christianity is somewhat pointless since one is a Political Ideology and the other is a Religion.

No, we see the impact already. Christ became a symbol for people who died by the hundreds at the hand of the ruling regime. Guevara has his face on the t-shirts of the stupid, shortsighted heirs of capitalism who don't understand that capitalist economics feed the world.

Feed the world? Perhaps you should actually go to Africa, Asia and South America. See what Capitalism is doing for the poor there.

I'm sorry to say this, but your attempts to compare the two are idiotic. One told his followers to lay down their weapons and healed his enemy's ear before walking to his death. The other gave his followers weapons so they could die pointlessly.

I was just making a point that the two can and will be compared.

One offered eternal salvation, the other the chance to serve under a monolithic, controlling government that has been proven to destroy culture.

I’m sorry… how many Pagan nations did Christians convert or destroy again? You’ll find that Christianity has more then done its fair share of culture destroying.

They aren't the happy trippy dream communism people like to talk about. Sadly, the happy trippy dream communism doesn't exist.

Because true Communism is anarchism.

[J m HofMarN]

Like Che Guevara, Christ was not afraid to die for what he believed in. Stop putting him down, just because some prick is using him to make an asinine point.

My intent wasn't to put down Christ, and he did indeed set down ideals of social justice, etc, which motivated Catholics in Cuba to join the revolution. A Catholic priest once saved Fidel's life during the war for liberation, actually. So yes, Christ certainly did do good work on earth as well, but it was a different time. Would that have worked as well in Cuba? Probably not. Apples and oranges, like I said.

Guevara got a lot of people killed in order to fail. Christ died as part of succeeding; if you believe he was God, coming back from the dead rather mitigates what you're calling "failure".

Give me a break. You don't like Dr. Guevara (He healed lepers in Brazil, by the way, some of the people he "got killed" I suppose) because not all of his revolutions succeeded? Once again, it's just like Christ. A lot of Jews decided he wasn't the messiah because he failed to drive out the Romans. Guevara DID drive out an empire by winning the most crucial battle of the Cuban war for independence, the battle of Santa Clara. And so he wasn't a failure.

And your wording makes it sound as though his master plan was just to cause trouble and get people killed. He wasnt just doing it for his health (which was poor as he suffered from debilitated bouts of asthma) He was trying to bring about revolution to help the oppressed peoples of the world.

Meanwhile, Guevara's crony Castro is running what could be a prosperous nation into the ground to serve his antiquidated notions of government. Perhaps Guevara could have fixed that before wandering off to waste time and lives in other continents.

Yes yes, Cuba could be a prosperous country for a very few rich white upper class scum bags and some American corporations. His Excellency is holding a country together that has a third world standing, but he's turned it into a first world country in terms of education, health care, literacy, and human rights. But yeah I bet they'd be much better off under American rule.

And please, don't give me that "they need democracy" song and dance. The people of Cuba voted with their blood, their sweat, their sons and daughters. They voted against imperialism and people like you who sit on a pedestal and claim that US backed democracy is the only decent form of government. They voted for dignity and for Fidel.

You know what democracy is? Democracy is Nicaragua, where after CIA death squads butchered 10000 human beings, Daniel Ortega finally won his war and set up elections, so the US poured in millions of dollars to his opponents and threatened an embargo if he won, and wouldn't you know it, he lost. All the blood spilled and the scum in Washington still got their way. And that is what these scoundrels who talk of democracy are really after. Democracy is just another word for slavery to the plantation masters of America. I say to hell with democracy.

As for Guevara fixing things before "wandering off", he actually saved Cuba from bankruptcy by liquidating their national treasury (much of which was in the US) So when the US government STOLE all Cuban assets in the country, they got exactly jack shit. Dr. Guevara saved the people of Cuba from imperialism twice, and could have settled down. He was given more of a chance than anyone else who was martyred. Che could have settled in Cuba and led a life of luxury at a cushy government post, but instead he continued his quest to bring freedom to oppressed people the world over.

And you call that wandering off?

No, we see the impact already. Christ became a symbol for people who died by the hundreds at the hand of the ruling regime. Guevara has his face on the t-shirts of the stupid, shortsighted heirs of capitalism who don't understand that capitalist economics feed the world.

Guevara's followers also died by the hundreds, why is he a failure and Christ isn't? And you're saying theres something wrong with him because people wear his image on tee shirts? Ok, Christ must be a dip shit because people wear a cross on their shirts. Also, Curt Cobain, John Lennon, etc.

For some reason, people have this idea that communism would be better than the American government. For over 200 years, that government has turned a colony (just like India or most of Africa, which are very prosperous countries) into a defining superpower.

Socialism would put more emphasis on, ya know, NOT killing people. Maybe half our tax dollars wouldn't go towards so-called "defense". Do you deny that this would be better for the world? If this nation were more concerned with healthcare than sewing an empire, millions of people would still have homes in Iraq, and three hundred thousand would still be alive. Gee, it's a good thing the US government is a capitalist tyranny, aint it?