[Bond]

Are you kidding? Guevara was a bum who thought he was the Second Coming after he went on a tour of Latin America. "Doctor" makes people think he was some sort of pseudo-religious figure, which he wasn't.

By the way, did The Motorcycle Diaries remind anyone of the Buddha's story? Might as well be intentional, I guess...

[J m HofMarN]

Guevara was not the cause of the populist-leftist uprisings in South America and Africa; if anyone helped change those governments then it was Castro but even then it was the local populace and not outsiders who eventually got rid of the puppet governments of the United States.

I never said he was the cause of it, only that those causes he championed eventually succeeded despite his death. I think he inspired a lot of people to try to live up to his example, and ultimately he won out against the forces of evil and imperialism.

Are you kidding? Guevara was a bum

Ouch. Ok I can't refute your evidence. Che Guevara was indeed a hobo. Point conceded. As such I look forward to your rebuttal to my next statement:

Ian Fleming was a vagabond.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 28 August 2007 - 01:13 PM

[Bond]

I never said he was the cause of it, only that those causes he championed eventually succeeded despite his death. I think he inspired a lot of people to try to live up to his example, and ultimately he won out against the forces of evil and imperialism.

Hmmm, let's switch a few words in that statement...

I never said Jesus was the cause of it, only that those causes he championed eventually succeeded despite his death. I think he inspired a lot of people to try to live up to his example, and ultimately he won out against the forces of evil and Satanism.

Sound familiar?

Ouch. Ok I can't refute your evidence. Che Guevara was indeed a hobo. Point conceded. As such I look forward to your rebuttal to my next statement:

Ian Fleming was a vagabond.

At one point in his life, certainly. Although, I doubt visiting exotic foreign lands for Her Majesty's Secret Service could hardly make one a "vagabond".

[Cobnat]

I never said he was the cause of it, only that those causes he championed eventually succeeded despite his death. I think he inspired a lot of people to try to live up to his example, and ultimately he won out against the forces of evil and imperialism.

He inspired nothing. People revolted long before he was around and will revolt long after his memory is forgotten. People revolt out of necessity and not because of idealization or idolization.

This post has been edited by Cobnat: 28 August 2007 - 04:25 PM

[Bond]

He inspired nothing. People revolted long before he was around and will revolt long after his memory is forgotten. People revolt out of necessity.

Very true, Cobnat. Guevara simply took advantage of the people who regarded him as their leader, similar to the very regimes he was trying to overthrow.

[Cobnat]

Very true, Cobnat. Guevara simply took advantage of the people who regarded him as their leader, similar to the very regimes he was trying to overthrow.

I doubt that anyone saw him as their leader while he was alive but yes, he did take advantage of people (as political leaders tend to do).

[Bond]

I doubt that anyone saw him as their leader while he was alive but yes, he did take advantage of people (as political leaders tend to do).

Also, the things he wrote (such as The Motorcycle Diaries) vastly enlarged his image, almost to the point of divine godhood.

[J m HofMarN]

Bond- You continue to act as though I'm arguing against Jesus. Also, I think that argument ended a while ago anyhow.

He inspired nothing.

Did people say "Oh look Che Guevara... Well guess it's time to overthrow the government" no.

But he did provide ideas on how to overthrow governments in his treatise on guerilla warfare, and he provided an example of devotion to the revolutionary ideal. I definately think he inspired people. If you're against his ideals it's fairly obvious that you'd fail to see that.

Guevara simply took advantage of the people

Oooook. So here's what you're implying:

Step 1: Form band, crawl through densely forrested mountains for days with no sleep while suffering cripling asthma attacks.

Step 2:

Step 3: Profit by taking advantage of people.

You see, I don't know if you're aware of this, but in order to take advantage of someone you have to gain something by it. Dr. Guevara just got a lot of wounds, the deaths of many of his friends, and eventual martyrdom.

So I'm sure you'll say "HE IS TEH BAD MAN CUZ HE GOTTED HIZ FRIENDS KILLED OMG!" but, back to the fun comparisons, pretty much everyone Jesus hung with was martyred or killed themselves. Was he taking advantage of them?

yes, he did take advantage of people

Example?

Also, the things he wrote (such as The Motorcycle Diaries) vastly enlarged his image, almost to the point of divine godhood.

The motorcycle diaries had jack shit to do with trying to liber... I'm sorry, "take advantage" of people. That was simply the part of Che's diaries dealing with his travels around South America. It's more like reporting than an actual diary because he was trying to show how badly the US and their allies were raping South America and its indiginous people. But no, the US was being nice, it was Che who was taking advantage of those people by... like... ya know... writing about how they were being taken advantage of... or something.

[Bond]

He killed people, then wrapped himself in the Cuban flag and let the firing squad take him.

He was a jack*ss, pure and simple.

[Spoon Poetic]

Okay, wait. Both of the active debates in the Debate Club are somehow about Che now???

. . .

[Bond]

Surprisingly enough, both are also off-topic.

[Spoon Poetic]

No, that's not surprising. That's just how these things go. Things always get off-topic, but I don't mind as long as people are still having a good, clean debate about whatever. But maybe at least one should get back on topic so that we only have one active Che debate.

Edit: An attempt to get this somewhat on topic.

A leader is best
When people barely know that he exists,
Not so good when people obey and acclaim him;
Worse when they despise him.
"Fail to honor people,
They fail to honor you."
But of a good leader, who talks little,
When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,
They will all say, "we did this ourselves."
--Lao-Tzu

That's the leader I want. Can anyone think of any leaders they think fits into this category?

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 07 September 2007 - 03:51 PM

[Bond]

Sounds like George Washington to me...

[J m HofMarN]

He killed people, then wrapped himself in the Cuban flag and let the firing squad take him.

Wow... Wow... So your argument against Che is that he killed people during a fugging war, was a Cuban citizen, and that he died.

I'm sure if Che were alive today he would apologize for offending you by getting shot to death and buried in an unmarked grave. But for us normal people, generally that's not a reason to hate someone.

George Washington was loved? Read your history. Whiskey and Shay's rebellions.

Hamilton: George we're in debt from the war
Washington: I have a great idea! Let's tax the poor farmers who helped win that war to avoid oppressive taxes!
Hamilton: Huzzah for independence!

[Bond]

Hamilton: George we're in debt from the war
Washington: I have a great idea! Let's tax the poor farmers who helped win that war to avoid oppressive taxes!
Hamilton: Huzzah for independence!

Well, that irks me a bit, too, but there's a perfectly good reason why they were put down, and it starts with Alexander and ends with Hamilton.

Yup, he was a bastard, too; he fixed the pistol he got in the duel so he could kill Aaron Burr before he even got a shot off. Fortunately for Burr, Hamilton was a lousy shot.