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Kosovo belongs to serbs Bush is an idiot

#16 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 13 June 2007 - 02:25 PM

"I was talking about the period between WW2 and the 90s. Using ancient history (history) to justify genocide is stupid and wrong."

The genocide in question was against ethnic albanians, not against serbs. And if you cant look into history to try to figure out the reasons for the conflict then why bother talking about it at all? History has a lot to do with genocide. Sometimes it pops up just out of ethnic hatreds when people take advantage of it such as milosevic and hitler. And then other times a government just plain out loves to commit genocide, like the US with blacks, indians, vietnamese, central america, etc.

"If by relative peace and respect you mean countless massacres against all non-Sunnis, then I agree with you. Anyway, there was a “relative peace” only because the Palestinians had the Ottomans to back them up if the Jews ever got out of line."

State specific occurences please. As I've said, this general idea that "OMG TEH MUSLIMS WERE MEAN TO GAWDS CHOSEN PEOPLE BEFORE WE FREED TEM" is baseless. Jews went TO Palestine to flee the inquisition and racism purpetrated by good Christians all over Europe. Muslim people, on a whole, were infinitely more accepting of Jews than Christians until the Zionists got it into their twisted heads to steal Palestine.

"I meant that helping Muslims in Europe will not make up for what the West has done in the Middle-East."

There we can agree. And you might also note that NOT helping Muslims in Europe will NOT justify the Russian brutality in Checnya. That's why they're opposing this, because giving aid to one Eurasian Muslim country that's been the victim of horrible invasion, might set a precedent for another one like it, a precedent which I support far more than Kosovar independence.

"Yes because that is obviously NOT what happened with Afghanistan in the 80s. /sarcasm"

So there we have it. You lot think Kosovo should submit to occupation simply because they're Muslim, and impowering Muslims will CLEARLY lead to blowing up the pentagon (Note: I'm not implying that this would be disagreeable, to me at least). Your logic is fundamentally flawed and based on Islamophobia alone.

The difference between Kosovo and Afghanistan is that the KLA is a less hard core organization when it comes to Muslim values. Women in Kosovo aren't being hung for not wearing burqas. Also, the KLA is not primarily a terrorist group.

In Afghanistan, as soon as we beat the Soviets we left everyone to get fucked. In Kosovo there's a UN and NATO group there to make sure everyone stays fairly cool, we're aiding refugees, supervising elections, etc. Afghanistan was just the US pouring guns into a country so the Russians wouldnt win and then leaving them high and dry. Of course they were going to be angry.

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#17 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 12:26 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 13 2007, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The genocide in question was against ethnic albanians, not against serbs. And if you cant look into history to try to figure out the reasons for the conflict then why bother talking about it at all? History has a lot to do with genocide. Sometimes it pops up just out of ethnic hatreds when people take advantage of it such as milosevic and hitler. And then other times a government just plain out loves to commit genocide, like the US with blacks, indians, vietnamese, central america, etc.


How can you possibly compare Milosevic and Hitler? Only retarded journalists who have no brains in their skulls do things like that. The situation in Yugoslavia in the 80s and 90s are very much different from the situation in Germany in the 30s and 40s.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 13 2007, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
State specific occurences please. As I've said, this general idea that "OMG TEH MUSLIMS WERE MEAN TO GAWDS CHOSEN PEOPLE BEFORE WE FREED TEM" is baseless. Jews went TO Palestine to flee the inquisition and racism purpetrated by good Christians all over Europe. Muslim people, on a whole, were infinitely more accepting of Jews than Christians until the Zionists got it into their twisted heads to steal Palestine.


Christians all over Europe? The Jews in Israel are not the same Jews in Europe. I am not a Christian either so just know that I don’t give a shit about Jews.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 13 2007, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There we can agree. And you might also note that NOT helping Muslims in Europe will NOT justify the Russian brutality in Checnya. That's why they're opposing this, because giving aid to one Eurasian Muslim country that's been the victim of horrible invasion, might set a precedent for another one like it, a precedent which I support far more than Kosovar independence.


Well Chechnya is something in which no side is the “good” side. On one side you have these drug barons who claim to be Islamic freedom fighters and they are causing massive problems in the Caucasian area. Then you have the Russian military which is sloppy at best and trying to kill civilians at worst.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 13 2007, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So there we have it. You lot think Kosovo should submit to occupation simply because they're Muslim, and impowering Muslims will CLEARLY lead to blowing up the pentagon (Note: I'm not implying that this would be disagreeable, to me at least). Your logic is fundamentally flawed and based on Islamophobia alone.


Who said anything about occupation? The only occupiers are NATO troops. My logic is based on that, logic. Your logic seems to be based on the strange ideal that somehow all those Islamist terrorist groups out there in the world are actually freedom fighters and when they blow up civilians then it can be justified because they are fighting against a “much greater evil”. Although I’m not surprised by your thoughts, it seems that all Marxists are turning into Jihadists these days, probably because they have so much in common, blowing up civilians for a crude cause I mean.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 13 2007, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The difference between Kosovo and Afghanistan is that the KLA is a less hard core organization when it comes to Muslim values. Women in Kosovo aren't being hung for not wearing burqas. Also, the KLA is not primarily a terrorist group.


I agree with you there. The KLA really don’t give a shit about Islamic values, they only call their causes a “jihad” in order to get support from other Islamist organizations around the world. The KLA is not a terrorist group but more of a mafia who only cares about drugs, prostitution and the slave trade.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 13 2007, 11:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In Afghanistan, as soon as we beat the Soviets we left everyone to get fucked. In Kosovo there's a UN and NATO group there to make sure everyone stays fairly cool, we're aiding refugees, supervising elections, etc. Afghanistan was just the US pouring guns into a country so the Russians wouldnt win and then leaving them high and dry. Of course they were going to be angry.


http://www.citizenso...rg/smiling.html

-350,000 non-Albanians have been "cleansed" from Kosovo

-84 Serbian churches and monasteries have been razed and dozens more severely damaged

-50,000 Serbian and Roma homes have been torched

-910 People have been murdered, 811 were Serbs and Montenegrins

-4,354 terrorists attacks, 4,121 against Serbs and Montenegrins

-802 wounded, 751 Serbs and Montenegrins

-821 abductions, 757 against Serbs and Montenegrins

-2 million Serbian books have been burned

The situation in Kosovo doesn’t seem fucked up at all. /sarcasm
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Posted 14 June 2007 - 12:36 AM

All you ever hear about in western papers are "Milosevic is an ethnic cleanser". Bill Clinton was a fucking idiot when it came to attacking the serbs, and lambasting them as aggressors. They DID start the 1996 war and KLA was at that time a terrorist group. Now the Albanians have both world support and overhwhelming majority, plus the safety of UN forces. Now the tables have turned in their favor and they are showing their true colours.

Never mind the fact that Albanians waged numerous massacres Serbs and did the holy war thing by specifically targeting christian monasteries.

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...m/20070612.html

Taken from the above link

Kosovo's Serbs have suffered greatly since the end of the war. Hundreds of Serb houses were wrecked and Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries burned in March 2004, when ethnic Albanians went on the rampage for three days in Kosovo.

During the riots and in their aftermath, an estimated 4,000 Serbs fled the province. Since the end of the war, a total of about 200,000 are thought to have left. Another 1,000 Serbs have gone missing since June 1999, their fates still unknown. The suffering of Kosovo's Serbs has fallen in the shadow of the suffering of Albanians under the Serbian crackdown in the lead-up to the 1998-99 conflict.

Population statistics are not reliable but the most accepted figure suggests two million people live in Kosovo, approximately 90 per cent of whom are ethnic Albanian. The other 10 per cent include Serbs (around 100,000), Roma, Turks, Bosnians and Montenegrins.


QUOTE
84 Serbian churches and monasteries have been razed and dozens more severely damaged


Destroying Christian churches, throwing out non-Muslims, and building mosques is in no way a holy war.

KLA are waging an islamic war. Why do you guys pussy foot away from this? Kosovo was once called "the land of monasteris" now their are none left. KLA attack christian churches, not 1 or 2.

Here is a list of all the ones destroyed in 1999 alone! THese aren't ugly American Protestant churches, these are historical land site that have survived 100's of years.

http://www.rastko.or...ied/default.htm

Muslims are not peaceful people. They are fucking insane. Albanian muslims are not watered down. Muslims continuously elect strict and brutal islamic law run governments. They never protest against bombings, honor killings, or poor treatment of minorities in their country. They fly off the hook when you diss their religion, however. Muslims in the west are peaceful out of neccesity. Give them a majority and you'll see shit hit the fan



(CNSNews.com) - International intervention to halt the persecution of Christians in Kosovo is a "complete failure," according to a former diplomat and other political analysts who briefed Capitol Hill staff late last week, pointing to the destruction of 150 churches and the simultaneous construction of 200 mosques.

http://www.cnsnews.c...E20050815a.html

Most of the muslims do not particpate in the jihad, but that doesn't mean they don't support it or aid it.

You may laugh but this totally reminds me of the crusades

"This is a very grave threat," said Peterson. "With final status changing from Serbian Orthodox hegemony into at very best a gray line, the dividing line between the Christian and Islamic world moves closer to the European Union, and we're at great risk of tolerating what should not be tolerated in order to buy some peace in our time."

In the war against an expanding radical Islam, Peterson said, "We have three choices: convert, submit or die. But there's a fourth choice and that's to fight.

"What is going on in Kosovo today is the future of Europe tomorrow," he added.


ANd

Peterson and Djurovski both said many of the new mosques (in kosovo) funded by Saudi and Iranian funds are currently empty, but reflect plans to indoctrinate residents with the radical Wahhabist form of Islam. The new mosques carry plaques acknowledging funding from Saudi Arabia, Iran and the United Arab Emirates, said Grieboski.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 14 June 2007 - 12:56 AM

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#19 User is offline   Slade Icon

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 01:59 AM

Absolutely everything else aside (I don't want to jump in here), Cobnat, JM wasn't comparing Milosovic to Hitler, he's just saying that they both took advantage of a fanatical nationalism to inspire hatred against peoples they felt threated by.

The solution to everything is for everybody to stop killing everybody else and just leave one another in peace. Stop perpetuating the violence. ><
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#20 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 03:30 AM

Slade answered the Hitler question. so moving ring along...

Cobnat, read a damned book. The demographics in Palestine pre WW2 were overwhelmingly Muslim. After Britain told the Jews to settle there and steal the land from its rightful owners it became a largely Jewish state as if by magic. Where do you think those people came from, Mars?

QUOTE
On one side you have these drug barons who claim to be Islamic freedom fighters and they are causing massive problems in the Caucasian area. Then you have the Russian military which is sloppy at best and trying to kill civilians at worst.


How is no one side good? The Chechen nation has been invaded twice by Russia and they have the right, as an oppressed people, to do whatever is necessary to gain their freedom.

QUOTE
Your logic seems to be based on the strange ideal that somehow all those Islamist terrorist groups out there in the world are actually freedom fighters and when they blow up civilians then it can be justified because they are fighting against a “much greater evil”. Although I’m not surprised by your thoughts, it seems that all Marxists are turning into Jihadists these days, probably because they have so much in common, blowing up civilians for a crude cause I mean.


I still havent seen a supported report of some massive terrorism by the KLA. But them being Muslim makes them terrorists, I suppose. And the reason that Marxists would support Islamic peoples today is that they're poor and fighting capitalist imperialism. Iraq is today's Vietnam. We rooted for the good guys in the seventies, the only problem is that in Iraq there are very few good guys. However, just so you can accuse me of supporting terrorism, I DO do a little dance every time Hamas lobs a rocket into Israel, and Hizballah's victory put a big silly grin on my face.

QUOTE
The KLA is not a terrorist group but more of a mafia who only cares about drugs, prostitution and the slave trade.


Riiiiiiiiiight. Cite evidence. Also, you forgot to accuse them of raping kittens.

Oh, and when you DO show sources, howabout not using insane Christian propaganda sites that have stuff like this on their front page:

"God owns the land. He gave it to the Jews. When the church goes home, Israel will become the source of blessing for a great multitude."

"Get a FREE copy of
Allah is NOT God
when you join our
email list!

Makes a great gift for Pastors!"

"Muslims who live in Western countries are increasingly adopting a strategy of Peaceful Jihad, growing their numbers by immigration, reproduction, and conversion. As they gain political clout, they will elect their own politicians and begin to take away our rights by changing our laws to conform with Koran.
The only way to slow this process down is to teach Muslims that Jesus - not jihad - is the real way to get to heaven. "

But at least you gave me a good site to go to if I need to do a Christian baiting article. I bet they hate fags too, but I don't have time to look.

This post has been edited by J m HofMarN: 14 June 2007 - 03:34 AM

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#21 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 03:51 AM

QUOTE
Kosovo's Serbs have suffered greatly since the end of the war. Hundreds of Serb houses were wrecked and Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries burned in March 2004, when ethnic Albanians went on the rampage for three days in Kosovo.


I already pointed out that Kosovo police arrested hundreds in connection with that *random* act of violence. It was not government sponsored or sustained, and therefore cannot be construed as genocide. Yes, Serbs are leaving, but the place is already 90 percent Albanians. You'd be leaving too if you lived in a place where the majority of the native people had suffered murder, relocation and rape at the hands of your people.

QUOTE
Here is a list of all the ones destroyed in 1999 alone! THese aren't ugly American Protestant churches, these are historical land site that have survived 100's of years.


How many mosques were destroyed before that by the serbs? I'm not saying its ok, but its not like the Albanians just up and decided to randomly destroy monasteries.

QUOTE
Muslims are not peaceful people. They are fucking insane. Albanian muslims are not watered down. Muslims continuously elect strict and brutal islamic law run governments. They never protest against bombings, honor killings, or poor treatment of minorities in their country. They fly off the hook when you diss their religion, however. Muslims in the west are peaceful out of neccesity. Give them a majority and you'll see shit hit the fan.


Well I'm glad to see the basis for your argument finally come out. I wont argue with this. I once tried to tell someone that snakes weren't the earthly incarnation of Satan, so I know how this goes.

QUOTE
In the war against an expanding radical Islam, Peterson said, "We have three choices: convert, submit or die. But there's a fourth choice and that's to fight.

"What is going on in Kosovo today is the future of Europe tomorrow," he added.


For fucks sake! People do not become radicalized because of their religion! That's like saying blacks are all criminals cuz they're black or Latinos love gangs because they're mex-ee-cans. Yes, you know what, I bet there is a lot of radicalizing going on in Kosovo, but thats because of societal fallout from the massive fuckoff genocide that happened there, not because Islamic people are insane. You make crude childish generalizations about religions and people without ever peering at the sociological reasons for behavior. You may as well be saying that Jews love to handle money while you're at it.

(That stereotype, by the way, came about because moneylenders were considered low individuals, and so such work was shunned by decent folk and became available to Jews as no one else really wanted it, thus the stereotype of the Shylock was born)

QUOTE
Peterson and Djurovski both said many of the new mosques (in kosovo) funded by Saudi and Iranian funds are currently empty, but reflect plans to indoctrinate residents with the radical Wahhabist form of Islam. The new mosques carry plaques acknowledging funding from Saudi Arabia, Iran and the United Arab Emirates, said Grieboski.


OH MY GAWD! Not the United Arab Emirates! They'll be killing Westerners in no time!

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#22 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 04:56 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 14 2007, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cobnat, read a damned book. The demographics in Palestine pre WW2 were overwhelmingly Muslim. After Britain told the Jews to settle there and steal the land from its rightful owners it became a largely Jewish state as if by magic. Where do you think those people came from, Mars?


Look, I am not going to argue with you about this, the fact that Jews picked any place in the middle-east to be their homeland was stupid, they should have picked somewhere in Germany.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 14 2007, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How is no one side good? The Chechen nation has been invaded twice by Russia and they have the right, as an oppressed people, to do whatever is necessary to gain their freedom.


Right…ZEIG HEIL…“oppressed” people also…ZEIG HEIL… have the right…ZEIG HEIL…to oppress other races…ZEIG HEIL…creating a wave of oppression…ZEIG HEIL…that will never cease.

Also there can never be right definition of “oppressed”, in my opinion the Serbs in Kosovo are being oppressed, does that give them the right to kill people? Fuck no, any reasonable intelligent person can see that the “ends justify the means” mentality only causes mass suffering.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 14 2007, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I still havent seen a supported report of some massive terrorism by the KLA. But them being Muslim makes them terrorists, I suppose. And the reason that Marxists would support Islamic peoples today is that they're poor and fighting capitalist imperialism. Iraq is today's Vietnam. We rooted for the good guys in the seventies, the only problem is that in Iraq there are very few good guys. However, just so you can accuse me of supporting terrorism, I DO do a little dance every time Hamas lobs a rocket into Israel, and Hizballah's victory put a big silly grin on my face.


With every rocket Palestinians lob at Israel, the Israeli military gets more and more pissed and drops bombs on Palestinian civilians, how can you possibly support the actions of Hezbollah when their actions ultimately hurt the Palestinian people?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 14 2007, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Riiiiiiiiiight. Cite evidence. Also, you forgot to accuse them of raping kittens.


I am going to throw you a bone and give you some of the sites that have made up my opinion on this matter.

Best summery:

http://www.antiwar.c...?articleid=9888

Others:

http://www.antiwar.c...?articleid=9980

http://www.antiwar.c...?articleid=9850

http://www.antiwar.c...articleid=10011

http://www.nationali...e.aspx?id=12308

http://www.nationali...e.aspx?id=13876

http://www.converge....nz/pma/sdil.htm

http://www.balkanalysis.com/?p=62

http://www.balkanaly...-document-loom/

http://www.savekosov...default.asp?p=2

http://www.savekosov...default.asp?p=3

http://www.savekosov...default.asp?p=4

http://www.savekosov...default.asp?p=5

http://www.harpers.o...-mis-1158344060

http://fairuse.100we.../baltsun03.html


QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 14 2007, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, and when you DO show sources, howabout not using insane Christian propaganda sites that have stuff like this on their front page:


How about you stop spouting baseless Muslim propaganda. Show me the sources of your opinion or stop being a hypocrite.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 14 2007, 12:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I already pointed out that Kosovo police arrested hundreds in connection with that *random* act of violence. It was not government sponsored or sustained, and therefore cannot be construed as genocide. Yes, Serbs are leaving, but the place is already 90 percent Albanians. You'd be leaving too if you lived in a place where the majority of the native people had suffered murder, relocation and rape at the hands of your people.


Firstly, how many people were convicted? Secondly, that would mean that Milosevic’s “cleansing” of Kosovo cannot be constituted as genocide (and it wasn’t during his court battle) since he never sponsored what the Yugoslav military did nor did he condone it. Thirdly, Serbs are the native people of Kosovo, they have been there since at least the 1300s, while most of the current Albanians in Kosovo are either first, second or third generation immigrants.

But no more. I am tired of talking about a subject in which no one will change their minds over, your obviously fanatically illogical about Kosovo’s independence, there is no point in debating with you.
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Posted 14 June 2007 - 11:33 AM

Oh how lovely, the dumbass quote of the day from America's favorite fuck-up. How anyone can take that idiot seriously as a leader is beyond me.
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#24 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 02:50 PM

QUOTE
OH MY GAWD! Not the United Arab Emirates! They'll be killing Westerners in no time!


Right, now explain the other countries funding the projects which are run by despotic backwards islamic freaks.

QUOTE
For fucks sake! People do not become radicalized because of their religion! That's like saying blacks are all criminals cuz they're black or Latinos love gangs because they're mex-ee-cans. Yes, you know what, I bet there is a lot of radicalizing going on in Kosovo, but thats because of societal fallout from the massive fuckoff genocide that happened there, not because Islamic people are insane. You make crude childish generalizations about religions and people without ever peering at the sociological reasons for behavior. You may as well be saying that Jews love to handle money while you're at it.

(That stereotype, by the way, came about because moneylenders were considered low individuals, and so such work was shunned by decent folk and became available to Jews as no one else really wanted it, thus the stereotype of the Shylock was born)


We're talking about muslims here, not colour. Second, Muslims started it, they had the intentions to gain control of land they flooded into, but didn't own. They razed churches and other civillian sites, and caused much grief to Serb and non-muslim residents.

QUOTE
Well I'm glad to see the basis for your argument finally come out. I wont argue with this. I once tried to tell someone that snakes weren't the earthly incarnation of Satan, so I know how this goes.


Funny how you have a posting called 'baiting christians'. Here we have a religion that causes problems all around the world. Dafur, Palestine, Chechnya, Kosovo, Afghanistan. Yet you think it's fine. You don't speak out against it and you defend it to the bone.

QUOTE
I already pointed out that Kosovo police arrested hundreds in connection with that *random* act of violence. It was not government sponsored or sustained, and therefore cannot be construed as genocide. Yes, Serbs are leaving, but the place is already 90 percent Albanians. You'd be leaving too if you lived in a place where the majority of the native people had suffered murder, relocation and rape at the hands of your people.


You just don't get it. Albanians started all the shit, the Serbs responded back. Thats what war is all about JM. So Albanians can kick out kill and destroy serbs and their buildings, but if Serbs respond back with brutal force, then they're in the wrong. I get it.

http://www.youmeworks.com/islam.html

Islam is a violent and shitty religion. It has explictly brutal passages. It disses Christians and Jews and actually makes a point of converting them or destroying them. But keep telling yourself it's a misunderstood religion. Go insult the islamic bible a islamic country, you'll be killed, JM. They're insane.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 14 June 2007 - 03:02 PM

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 09:10 PM

When you try to use a text that is ridiculously old and essentially out of context (i.e. we're not a nomadic people 1400+ years ago living out in the desert), it all comes out pretty wacky. The Old Testament god gave people permission to kill non-believers, brought down plagues, destroyed villages, etc. The people raped and pillaged and plundered. Any theocratic government would be just as awful as a Muslim one. Heck, I'll bet even a Buddhist theocracy would be a nightmare to people with sense. I'm not saying that Muslim dictatorships aren't fucked up, it's just that it's not just because they're Muslim. Religion just gives the dictators a good way to manipulate and enrage the masses into doing crazy things.

Jordan: Hatred based upon a religion is comparable to a hatred based upon ethnicity, gender, social class, sexuality, etc. You don't get around bigotry by saying "It's not about color."
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#26 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 10:16 PM

QUOTE (Slade @ Jun 14 2007, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When you try to use a text that is ridiculously old and essentially out of context (i.e. we're not a nomadic people 1400+ years ago living out in the desert), it all comes out pretty wacky. The Old Testament god gave people permission to kill non-believers, brought down plagues, destroyed villages, etc. The people raped and pillaged and plundered. Any theocratic government would be just as awful as a Muslim one. Heck, I'll bet even a Buddhist theocracy would be a nightmare to people with sense. I'm not saying that Muslim dictatorships aren't fucked up, it's just that it's not just because they're Muslim. Religion just gives the dictators a good way to manipulate and enrage the masses into doing crazy things.

Jordan: Hatred based upon a religion is comparable to a hatred based upon ethnicity, gender, social class, sexuality, etc. You don't get around bigotry by saying "It's not about color."


Cobnat: Can I add something to this?

Slade: Alright then…

Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and every other people that follow or support a mainstream religion are nothing more then sheep, or slaves if you will to the clerics and religious hierarchy of that religion.

Basically I would advise against anyone supporting a fundamental religious group that runs around rampart in the streets of any city anywhere in the world with weapons if you do not follow the EXACT line of thought as them. It is just not smart.
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#27 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 10:30 PM

Cobnat- I'm not exactly sure what you're implying MONKEY with your silly RETARDED interspersed speech that needlessly BULLSHIT compares Chechen guerillas to the RUBBERDUCK Nazis. Oh no, I've contracted tourettes from your post.

Seriously though, you don't believe that people under foreign invasion and unjust government have the right to fight back? Ah yes, it's inconvenient to say that since many of those under such occupations are Muslim, and we know how you and Jordan feel about those evil non believers.

QUOTE
With every rocket Palestinians lob at Israel, the Israeli military gets more and more pissed and drops bombs on Palestinian civilians, how can you possibly support the actions of Hezbollah when their actions ultimately hurt the Palestinian people?


Hey, it's something. The freedom fighters in Palestine aren't the most well supplied group, but they do what they can and I support that. Israel bombs Palestinians, bulldozes their homes, imprisons their elected officials, etc etc. They would be doing that on some pretense or another regardless because they intend to break the spirit of resistance and claim Palestine (The West Bank at least) For themselves. Also, Hizballah has nothing to do with the Palestinian people, they're a Lebanese group.

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I am going to throw you a bone and give you some of the sites that have made up my opinion on this matter.


Ok, I can see your point. The ethnic Albanians aren't exactly being nice to the Serbs in their country. But trying to keep things like they are and prevent the place from becoming a nation is just going to exacerbate tensions and hatred. Do you believe that enmity for former rulers is a just reason to deny independence? The colonists weren't particularly nice to British loyalists who stayed behind (indeed many of them fled to Canada), does that mean the US shouldnt have gained independence?

When a country gains independence there will generally be a period of crazy shit going on. Vietnam's independence from France was followed by decades of war. Same with many African colonies. But that is NO excuse to keep them under the yokes of occupiers.

Also, the first article you cited, only mentioned that Saudi Arabia had funded mosques. The rest of it was just speculation about how bad it WOULD be if that nasty radical islam popped up. Surely people could pop into Friday prayers and see what's being said in these mosques, and report it if it was as evil as it's speculated, so I'm going to assume that the reason Saudi Arabia is funding mosque building is because a lot of mosques were destroyed, and Saudi Arabia is the principal Muslim nation as it contains their holy sites.

QUOTE
your obviously fanatically illogical about Kosovo’s independence, there is no point in debating with you.


They've voted on independence and the referendum passed overwhelmingly. The people there have the right to self determination. You're suggesting cramming them back into unity with Serbia simply because you don't like Muslims. As soon as they even think about that that's when you're going to see suicide bombers and clerics preaching against the West. It's that sort of imperial mindset that causes the radicalization of many Muslims.



---------Please no direct insults... Talk all you want about a poor argument, but sadly, insulting people themselves is against the rules. Thanks, Spoon--------

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 15 June 2007 - 12:08 AM

Quote

I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#28 User is offline   J m HofMarN Icon

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Posted 14 June 2007 - 10:50 PM

QUOTE
Right, now explain the other countries funding the projects which are run by despotic backwards islamic freaks.


Wait a minute. This new line of thinking really makes me worried. US missionary groups operate and build churches in all sorts of countries, and that CLEARLY means that they're recruiting people from those countries to serve in our global crucade against terrorism. Because when you help build places of worship in other countries, there's no way anything good can come of it. It MUST be an act of pure machiavellian evil!

QUOTE
We're talking about muslims here, not colour. Second, Muslims started it


That's right! Also, blacks started it by living in European lands. And being so goOd at picking cotton.

QUOTE
Funny how you have a posting called 'baiting christians'. Here we have a religion that causes problems all around the world. Dafur, Palestine, Chechnya, Kosovo, Afghanistan. Yet you think it's fine. You don't speak out against it and you defend it to the bone.


Yes, I do indeed have a section on my site called crazy Christian baiting. But do I anywhere make statements about Christianity and all its followers being insane or shitty? I don't believe that I do. Indeed I make very clear divisions and the requirements for a site to be featured are that they spew hatred against womens rights, gays, Islam, etc, and are preferably either interested in telling people they're going to hell or spreading hatred. Say... Do you have a website?

Dafur,

Yes. Muslims are indeed involved in this conflict. Good job.

Palestine

Yeah. They started that whole thing when they... Umm... ya know... Wanted to live on their land.

Chechnya

Yeah. They started that whole thing when they... Umm... ya know... Wanted to not be owned by Russia.

Kosovo

Oh yes. A thousand years of conflict and it can all be traced back to Islam being shitty and insane. Brilliant hypothesis, professor oversimplification.

Afghanistan

The Soviets invaded and wrecked the country, the West poured in guns and mines aand then left too. And, get this, the people of the country were mad about it. It MUST be because they're shitty insane Muslims.

QUOTE
It disses Christians and Jews and actually makes a point of converting them or destroying them.


Oh it does does it? Why are there still Christians and Jews in Muslim countries then? Why is there a Jewish man in Irans parliament? Shouldnt he have been converted or destroyed by now if this is true?

Also, doesnt every religion ever make a point of wanting to convert people to that religion? Isnt that how a religion grows? That's like accusing McDonalds of wanting to convert people to eating big macs or destroy them, but Burger King, Wendy's and Taco Bell are all fine.

"Go insult the islamic bible a islamic country, you'll be killed, JM. They're insane."

So why were there hundreds of thousands in Turkey protesting in favor of secularism? Weren't they themselves Muslims? I havent heard of all of them being killed. Also, going to any country and publicly putting down their religious text would get your ass kicked. I don't know about being killed, but that statement holds true anywhere. Once again you're singling out Islam with true statements, but neglecting to mention that they apply to any other religion.

Quote

I don't know about you but I have never advocated that homosexuals, for any reason, be cut out of their mother's womb and thrown into a bin.
- Deucaon toes a hard line on gay fetus rights.
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#29 User is offline   Cobnat Icon

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 12:29 AM

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 14 2007, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Cobnat- I'm not exactly sure what you're implying MONKEY with your silly RETARDED interspersed speech that needlessly BULLSHIT compares Chechen guerillas to the RUBBERDUCK Nazis. Oh no, I've contracted tourettes from your post.


My point was that since Germans were being oppressed by Treaty of Versailles, that did not give the Nazis the right to wipe out half of Europe.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 14 2007, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Seriously though, you don't believe that people under foreign invasion and unjust government have the right to fight back?


Yes, the same way the Indians fought the British occupation, or did you forget that things can be solved in a non violent way?

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 14 2007, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ok, I can see your point. The ethnic Albanians aren't exactly being nice to the Serbs in their country. But trying to keep things like they are and prevent the place from becoming a nation is just going to exacerbate tensions and hatred. Do you believe that enmity for former rulers is a just reason to deny independence? The colonists weren't particularly nice to British loyalists who stayed behind (indeed many of them fled to Canada), does that mean the US shouldnt have gained independence?


Considering what the United States is doing now around the world, no, the United States should have never left the commonwealth.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 14 2007, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When a country gains independence there will generally be a period of crazy shit going on. Vietnam's independence from France was followed by decades of war. Same with many African colonies. But that is NO excuse to keep them under the yokes of occupiers.


Once again, the Serbs are not “occupiers”, they are natives of the land.

QUOTE (J m HofMarN @ Jun 14 2007, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They've voted on independence and the referendum passed overwhelmingly. The people there have the right to self determination. You're suggesting cramming them back into unity with Serbia simply because you don't like Muslims. As soon as they even think about that that's when you're going to see suicide bombers and clerics preaching against the West. It's that sort of imperial mindset that causes the radicalization of many Muslims.


I guess you are also for the Serbs in Bosnia succeeding and taking 49% of Bosnia with them? I mean they did a vote and at least 90% of all Bosnian Serbs want to succeed, does that mean you support their right to self-determination? Or are you against their rights simply because they are Christians?

This post has been edited by Spoon Poetic: 15 June 2007 - 12:39 AM

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#30 User is offline   Jordan Icon

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Posted 15 June 2007 - 02:42 AM

QUOTE
US missionary groups operate and build churches in all sorts of countries, and that CLEARLY means that they're recruiting people from those countries to serve in our global crucade against terrorism.


US missionaries don't bomb or kill people, or force people to convert. They don't build churches without approval from the people. They don't force anything on any one. They hand out food and medication and preach the gospel to those who WANT to listen. They also don't try over run the masses and expel non-believers.


QUOTE
That's right! Also, blacks started it by living in European lands. And being so goOd at picking cotton.


That is ridiculous. I shouldn't even bother respond. Albanians Muslims started the fucking violence, nobody enslaved them or forced them into kosovo. They immigrated, gained power in numbers, and began a Islamic overhaul of the region. Blacks in europe? wtf are you talking about.

QUOTE
Yes, I do indeed have a section on my site called crazy Christian baiting. But do I anywhere make statements about Christianity and all its followers being insane or shitty? I don't believe that I do. Indeed I make very clear divisions and the requirements for a site to be featured are that they spew hatred against womens rights, gays, Islam, etc, and are preferably either interested in telling people they're going to hell or spreading hatred. Say... Do you have a website?


No, they just kill you.

QUOTE
Dafur,

Yes. Muslims are indeed involved in this conflict. Good job.


Yup, another bloody conflict involving them.

following is part of a debate from here
http://www.frontpage...le.asp?ID=15026

It is both. Probably one of the most lethal religious and racial war combined in contemporary times. In the historical roots, we see the march by Arab-Islamic dynasties through Egypt down the Nile valley and the occupation of the old Nubian kingdoms as of the 8th century AD/CE.

At that time, Arab-Muslim tribes, sent by Amr bnel A'ass, the conqueror of Egypt, clashed with Afro-Nilotic populations, many among whom were Christians in what is today the upper part of Sudan. The "Blacks" were pushed further South and West slowly and surely. So the Nubians of Darfour are the heirs - not necessarily the direct descendants - of the native Nubians of northern Sudan, marginalized towards the periphery.

It took the Arab-Islamic Caliphates and the Ottoman Sultanate a few centuries to "create" two layers of populations in Northern and central Sudan. The northern part was demographically "Arabized” and “Islamized." Practically, and as was the case in other areas of the empire, settler tribes, coming from Arabia and Egypt, established a province by the name of "ard el Sudan" - in Arabic, the "land of the blacks."



A lower layer, was the Islamized black population, the actual African Muslims, from Khartoum to the Nuba mountain in the West. The push has been for over a thousand year, from the north towards the south and the West: Arabs would dominate Blacks. And Muslim Arabs would dominate Black Muslims.



It was only in the mid 20th century that the dominant elite of Khartoum moved further south to clash with and try to colonize the non Muslim Blacks (i.e. the Dinka tribes and other sub tropical Africans).



In a sum, and since the modern state of Sudan was established by the British in the 1950s, the northern Arab-Islamic elite attempted to dominate two ethno religious African communities. The southern Black Christians and Animists and the Nubian Black Muslims.



Since the 1989 coup that brought the National Islamic Front NIF to power with General Omar Bashir and Hassan Turabi, the "Jihadists"in Khartoum focused on the ethnic cleansing of the southern "Christians," on the base of religious ideology. They tried to rally the Black Muslims against the Black Christians. But as of the end of the 1990s, and especially since 2001, the Blacks understood that they were under two Jihads. One is religious against the Christians, and the other is racial against the Blacks, and they were being played against each other.



Hence, the Nuba mountain Black Muslims started to oppose the Arab-led militias. Furthermore, a growing number of anti-Islamists Arabs, criticized Khartoum's regime for its racial and extremist attitude.



Besides, world events, and the situation in Afghanistan and Iraq convinced the Khartoum regime to act against the weakest link first, that is, the Black Muslims in Darfour. Hence, the Jamjawed, Arab militias armed by the regime, unleashed a clear anti-African genocide. So, to summarize, the Jihadists in Khartoum are both religious extremists and racists. In addition, they are also fascists as they have suppressed the moderate Arab Muslim voices.



FP: And the world has just stood idly by while this Arab-Islamic genocide of Blacks and Christians went on for years. Why? Mr. Haidon?


OH my, Muslims enthnic cleansing and spreading their lovely religion by the sword, omg JM! THey don't just hate fags, they kill them!

QUOTE
Oh it does does it? Why are there still Christians and Jews in Muslim countries then?


Fractional numbers JM. If Christians or Jews ever got big in these lands, they'd be persecuted. Infact, public and open worship is forbidden. There are gays and porn stars living in the middle east, but they don't brag about it.

QUOTE
So why were there hundreds of thousands in Turkey protesting in favor of secularism?


Because Turkey is trying to score economic clout by joining the EU.

This post has been edited by Jordan: 15 June 2007 - 02:49 AM

Oh SMEG. What the smeggity smegs has smeggins done? He smeggin killed me. - Lister of Smeg, space bum
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