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Contradictions, Plot holes between the Trilogies

#31 User is offline   The Elite_elite Icon

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Posted 10 July 2007 - 09:28 PM

1 - Age of the Republic. ANH: "A thousand generations" vs. AOTC: "a thousand years"

Yes, a bit of a screw up there.

2 - AOTC/ROTS: All stormtroopers are clones of Jango Fett. OT: they have different heights and different voices... none of them sound like Temura Morrison.

Battlefront 2's campaign explains this. (And I'm pretty sure Lucas himself said something similar) They started cloning other.

3 - Size of the Clone Army. AOTC: States 1.2 million "units." By the OT, how can there be enough Stormtroopers to patrol the Galaxy if it takes 10 years to grow them and they age at 2x the normal rate?

Well, I'm sure that once the Republic learned about Kamino and the whole clone army they would start putting in more money toward more clones and there are most likely other cloners on the planet for even more clone production.

4 - How can Leia remember her real mother (ROTJ), if not only was she born AFTER her twin Luke (ROTS), but Padme died in childbirth?

Yes that was stupid.

5 - When did Obi-Wan Kenobi serve Bail Organa during the Clone Wars? (ANH)

Another screw-up in the PT.

6 - Design of the Tantive IV (name not stated in movie, but Captain Antilles's ship), how does it change so radically in 20 years? (ROTS vs. ANH)

See above.

7 - Why doesn't R2D2 remember the past 20 years?

It could have had a memory wipe like 3PO within those 20 years. R2 could also have been told to never speak of the PT events.

8 - Why did Ben Kenobi forget about Leia (ESB vs. ROTS)?

Maybe for some reason he thought that Leia wouldn't be as powerful/strong in the Force as Luke and so wouldn't be a good choice.

9 - When did Anakin demonstrate that he was "already a great pilot" when Obi-Wan "first knew him"? (ROTJ vs. TPM)

The pod racing and the destroying of the Trade Federation battleship.

10 - When did Owen show any disagreement with Anakin, to the extent described by Obi-Wan? (ANH vs. AOTC/ROTS)

Another PT screw-up.

11 - Why does Yoda say that Jedi never use the Force for attack, but only 'knowledge and defense', and why does he disparage war/warriors? (ESB vs. AOTC/ROTS)

Maybe going through the Clone Wars and order 66 made him believe that using the force to attack could easily lead a Jedi to the dark side.

12 - Why was Luke "hidden" on Anakin's home planet, at the homestead of the family his mother married into and his last name not changed? (ROTS vs. ANH)

As far as Vader knows his wife and any children she had are dead. As for hiding Luke at Anakin's home planet Obi most likely thought that Vader would avoid going back there to try and keep his past buried.

13 - Why doesn't Chewie react to Han Solo's bad-mouthing of the Jedi and the Force? (ANH vs. ROTS)

He got into it with Han about his dislike of Jedi so many times that he just got sick of arguing and decided to give up.

14 - Why doesn't R2D2 ever use his rocket boosters again? (AOTC/ROTS)

After so much use of it over a few decades it just got worn out and it would cost a lot of credits to replace them so they decided that money was needed elsewhere.

15 - Why did the first Death Star take twenty years to build, while the second, larger and more powerful station, was built in 1-3 years? (ROTS vs. ROTJ)

They might have started building Death Star II while Death Star I was still being built. Also DS2 was never completed. Notice that it had several spots that were incomplete.

16 - When was it shown that Anakin was a "good man" and a "good friend" before he turned to the Dark Side? (ROTS vs. ANH/ROTJ)

Another PT screw up.

17 - Why did Obi-Wan refer to Yoda as "The Jedi Master who instructed me" when he was instructed by Qui Gon Jinn? (TPM vs. ESB)

See above.

18 - Why does Yoda moan about Luke being "too old to begin the training" when Obi-Wan had no problem with it, and supposedly Yoda thought 9 year old Anakin was "too old"? (TPM vs. ANH/ESB)

Well, if he thinks 9 years is too old don't you think that he would feel someone in their 20s is way too old?

19 - What happened to Jar Jar Binks?

Hopefully he died.

20 - (Special Editions) Why does anyone on Tatooine care when the Empire falls?

Don't know.

21 - Why does Obi-Wan wear his Jedi uniform "in hiding" on Tatooine? (ANH vs. TPM/AOTC/ROTS)

Well, he's out in the middle of nowhere. Whose going to see that he's a Jedi? Sand People?

22 - What happened to all the battle droids?

They were turned off and most likely later gathered up and destroyed by the Empire.

23 - Why isn't Luke able to stop the Emperor's lightning attack and why doesn't Yoda at least show him how to counter it? (ROTJ vs. AOTC/ROTS)

Another PT screw up.

24 - If there are only always ever two Sith "no more, no less... a master and an apprentice" (TPM) why does Vader recommend that Luke could be turned into a "powerful ally" and the Emperor agrees he would be a "great asset"? (TPM vs. ESB)

Well, the Jedi are all dead and they are in control, so they now can start rebuilding the Sith Empire.

25 - Why do Obi-Wan, Anakin, Owen and Beru appear so old if only 18-20 years have past since we last saw them? (ANH/ROTJ vs. ROTS)

They most likely were mid-aged and so ready to start looking old.

26 - Why doesn't Admiral Motti seem aware of the reality of the Force and the power of those who wield it? (PT vs. ANH)

Maybe he saw the fact that the Jedi were destroyed as proof that they really did not have any kind of power.

27 - What happened to the Imperial military in those two decades that they lost nearly all their hardware and technology? (ROTS vs. OT)

After a couple of decades of great power they decided to just save money and lessen their military tech so the money could be spent elsewhere.

28 - Why doesn't Obi-Wan recognize the droids? (ANH vs. PT)

There are plenty of 3PO and R2 model droids out there. Why would he think that those two would just happen to be the same ones he knew decades ago?

29 - Why doesn't Owen Lars recognize the droids? (ANH vs. AOTC)

See above.

30 - Why don't Luke or Leia ever find out that R2D2 knows everything about their past?
Any more?


Memory wipe or orders to never tell maybe.


31 - Why doesn't Qui Gon Jinn appear as a spirit at the end of ROTJ? (see AOTC/ROTS)

Maybe after being "one with the Force" for several decades he became so one that he could never again be a ghost.

32 - If one has to be "trained" to become a spirit after death, when did Anakin ever learn it? (ROTS vs. ROTJ)

Another PT screw up.

33 - When did Anakin express the desire for his son to have his lightsaber when he was "old enough" (and if the Jedi are trained from birth, does that mean as a toddler? but since the Jedi aren't allowed to have children... then what?)?

See above.

34 - How many Wars were there? Why does Yoda refer to it as "the Clone War" instead of the "Clone WarS" (plural)? (AOTC vs. ANH)

Another screw up.

35 - Why does Ben refer to Vader as "Darth" if that is a Sith title rather than a personal name? (see ANH)

Because he was the only person at the time that was refered to as Darth since Sidious was only known as the Emperor.

36 - Was Vader really "but the learner" when he "left" Obi-Wan? (ANH vs. ROTS)

Yes. Vader later saw that he wasn't yet ready to defeat Obi-Wan as he was a new Sith. He saw that he was unprepared.

37 - Did Obi-Wan really stop going by that name (and start going by the name "Ben") "before" Luke was born? (ANH vs. ROTS)


Another PT screw up.

This post has been edited by The Elite_elite: 10 July 2007 - 09:34 PM

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#32 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 09:28 AM

I didn't have time to read it all, but isn't the jist of it basically: "what I can't explain (which probably happened,) the PT screwed it up"? smile.gif
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#33 User is offline   The Elite_elite Icon

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 01:33 PM

Well, if I couldn't figure out any decent explanation then yes, I just agree with him and say that the PT screwed it up. If someone else can think of an explanation for the ones that I couldn't though then maybe it wasn't a screw-up. I'm more than willing to accept what sounds like a decent explanation for the ones I couldn't think of an answer for.
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#34 User is offline   georgelucas4greedo Icon

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 03:03 PM

Maybe its not the PT that screwed up the OT, but its the OT that screwed up the PT...
It seems like everyone is over the nitpicking. Too bad.
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#35 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 06:25 PM

im out of it for a little while and every body's got delusions of grandeur... or regular delusions, anyway.
I've only skimmed this topic, as i have no intention of scrutinizing or refuting any of the initial claims (as requested). i am only in awe as to the amount of contention among you people; amicable though it may be. i just want to say i am impressed with the level of attention and cynisism heaped upon these movies; but all i ask is that an equal degree be shown towards ANY other movie and see whether they stand up to it. (thats a dare and a challenge!) actually dont bother, becuase NONE of them will.
and let fear and trembling preceed any claim that i am a "Gusher". i am critical to a fault of all things, and i recognise the inconsitencies and stupidities in Star Wars, as well as in ANY plot.
i realize this forum exists for this purpose but lets not get carried away in thinking Star Wars is All bad. becuase its not. it has far more redeeming qualities than most any movie, or story. and the story is what interests me. i do not love Star Wars for its special effects or escape from reality, but for its signifcance as a literary and cultral phenomenon. and as for its mythical subtext (which can hardly be doubted), we should all simply compare it to other myths and see whether it is not more coherent than any of its predocessors.
this is not an excuse nor apology, simply a reminder that Star Wars may be flawed, but still great.

This post has been edited by xenduck: 11 July 2007 - 06:31 PM

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#36 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 08:58 PM

If you just want to temper any criticism of Star Wars with "Oh, but we still love it and think it's great, right guys?" I say...

Well of COURSE we do!

You avoided the common apologetic pitfall of saying "well, you guys just hate Star Wars, and can't call yourself fans" like (unfortunately) so many do as a defense mechanism against such lists (in lieu of lists of excuses).


Star Wars is unique in that Lucas (and his defenders) have tried to give the impression that he is a visionary who had ONE TWELVE HOUR FILM planned out in advance, and that the six film "saga" as we see it is just that grand unfolding and plan, and that the special edition changes and such were all necessary because forces opposed to Lucas (especially limitations in budget, creative control and technological limitations) prevented him from "realizing his original vision" that he "always intended" and that the new vision is now entirely consistent and flows smoothly from one film to the next to make the 12 hour "saga" complete.

If Lucas had not made gradiose claims for himself and his movies and not SET THEM UP as modern day fairy tales, myths, and the saga of a generation for the world, then we would not judge it with the standards we do.

I get the same kinds of defenses from people when I criticize the Da Vinci Code on factual grounds... "it's just a movie" or "It's just FICTION!!!!" or "why get so upset, everybody argues about religion" or "why not judge it as a thriller rather than as a big theological treatise or a history text?"

But in that case I reply that the author himself repeatedly asserted that it was based on 99% accurate, factually based and well researched history, that he himself believed it (and polls show that millions of people accepted the central claims of the fiction as being accurate or at least extremely plausible based on the evidence presented).

So it's not that we're being unfair by "picking on" Star Wars or Lucas. It's not that we're holding them to some kind of impossible standard. We're only holding Star Wars to the standards SET UP and reinforced by Lucas and his PR campaigns over the years.

If the fans want to assert that there are NO CONTRADICTIONS between the trilogies (which many fans still continue to do, not merely asking for them to be presented, but stating it as if it's a fact that none exist) then lists like these are necessary to show them that thinking people who pay attention can see that this is not the case.

It's also no excuse for them to point out that a novel or a comic book series was written later that tried to explain (often three different contradictory ways) the inconsistency, or if I just play a computer game or watch a cartoon, the gaps will be "filled in."

Maybe if I just eat a big bowl of "See Threepi-O's" cereal, then the fact that Obi-Wan and Owen don't remember the droids who don't remember him will suddenly all become clear.

But the issue is that Lucas claims his movies are part of this "original vision" and so I should be able to see that by watching them. I don't. I see a bunch of mostly entertaining sci fi adventures with a lot of homages to other materials, but I don't see a grand vision with everything perfectly tied together and planned out in advance.

I think a "true Star Wars fan" is able to see the flaws in the masterpiece he or she venerates, without being such a blind follower that they'll deny such things even exist and attack people who point them out, not just laugh it off. Those are the kinds of people that are a little scary I think.

I think Lucas had some great ideas. I don't think he's the second coming of William Shakespeare. And the movies can be a cultural phenomenon, a successful franchise and so forth, without being necessarily flawless and infallible.

I don't make such lists because I hate Star Wars or want others to hate it, I just want to address some of this mindless fanaticism of certain fans while at the same time immersing myself in the geekiness of the whole thing (because the average viewer doesn't really care, it's only a movie, after all).

This post has been edited by KurganX: 16 July 2007 - 09:09 PM

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#37 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 09:03 PM

Have you ever read The Secret History of Star Wars? That'll tell you a whole lot more about Lucas's so-called "vision". laugh.gif
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#38 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 16 July 2007 - 09:30 PM

I have not read all 400+ pages of it, but I have read large portions of it. I recently downloaded the revised edition and I plan to read it someday, but let's face it, printing out that monster would cost as much as a paperback book, and I hate sitting there reading a long long document on a computer. It's protected so you can't copy and paste anything from it anywhere else (not even my text to speech so I could listen to it as I drift off to sleep at night, which would be cool).

But yes, I have read a lot of it, and between that, the Annotated Screenplays, Behind the Magic and the original version of "The Art of Star Wars" I can see through a lot of the BS that Lucas has caked on since 1995.

On another forum I was on, I was describing the problems with the overuse of CG and its negative impact on the Star Wars prequels. Of course in the same thread, without naming me specifically, several hardcore fans bemoaned how its so unfair for people to criticize CG in Star Wars, that they just do so because it's "trendy" to bash Lucas either out of jealousy that Star Wars is so popular and mainstream (unlike a lot of other geeky forms of entertainment) or because they are just vindicative that Lucas "tampered with THEIR childhood" or didn't live up to THEIR expectations (what they imagined the prequels would be like, back in the late 80's).

To me, these are just empty excuses. There's plenty of ways that you can be a legitimate, Star Wars fan, who also recognizes that Lucas made it up as he went along, made some questionable decisions and contradicted what he said in the past without apology (hence the "revisionism" claims), and that while he's a proven success, he could have done things differently and perhaps it would have been even more effective.

We can argue opinions and artistic tastes all day long without getting anywhere, but it seems there are just far too many fans who are so zealous about Star Wars that they just won't let anyone find fault with any aspect of it, and if you do so, they deserve to be hated and excluded from fandom because they "don't get it" (the "it" apparently being that we have to worship Lucas because Star Wars is perfect the way he wants it to be).

It's interesting because when it comes to the EU, then it's up for grabs. Some get very offended if you bash the EU, while others do it freely, but only if you criticize the movies do you get "what for." Others consider it their sacred duty to bash ROTJ as an abomination...
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Posted 16 July 2007 - 09:44 PM

You know, I don't like to bash. I know you don't either, and I can understand why most here hate them, but they're what I grew up with. They're the only Star Wars films I've seen at the cinema, and there, in a dark room with a crowd of other people awaiting them with the same anticipation as I, they are glorious. To just watch that logo and that scroll come over the screen... crying.gif
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#40 User is offline   xenduck Icon

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 08:03 AM

if i may share a sentimental moment: i was introduced to star wars by my mom. she is a literature and drama teacher. i was already quite familiar with star wars from a very early age, but being young there was a lot i didnt understand (like any movie). but when the special edition was released in theaters, i went with my mom and saw them for the first time on the big screen, right at the time i was old enough to comprehend the adult themes. maybe this nostalga has something to do with my love of star wars, but reagardless, i have, over the years, STUDIED these movies, and other books/movies. i am an aspiring writer myself and, if i do say so myself, have acquired some knowledge of the craft.

so what you say, kurgan, is respectable and accurate and you make a fine point about holding Lucas to his OWN standard. however, the fact remains that the movies ARE GREAT. whether as cultural phenomenon or literary genius, there is no denying that. so what is Lucas supposed to say? "Whoops, did i do that? sorry, it was all a big freakn accident!"

i dont know, seems to me he's been rather humble. he stays reclusive on his ranch, and only speaks out when asked. he doesnt force his opinions on anyone and he doesnt claim to be the next shakespeare. he talks a lot about the ideas and themes he had in mind, but these are no more contradictions than any rough draft or abandoned scheme. it is quite possible many ideas were considered simultaneously and openly discussed; accepted or rejected.

perhaps ill continue this thought in my thread AOTR. but till then, just remember, im not talking to people like you, bond or kurgan. its the people who are FANNATICAL in their like or dislike, at which my posts are directed.
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#41 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 11:31 AM

QUOTE (xenduck @ Jul 18 2007, 08:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
if i may share a sentimental moment: i was introduced to star wars by my mom. she is a literature and drama teacher. i was already quite familiar with star wars from a very early age, but being young there was a lot i didnt understand (like any movie). but when the special edition was released in theaters, i went with my mom and saw them for the first time on the big screen, right at the time i was old enough to comprehend the adult themes. maybe this nostalga has something to do with my love of star wars, but reagardless, i have, over the years, STUDIED these movies, and other books/movies. i am an aspiring writer myself and, if i do say so myself, have acquired some knowledge of the craft.

so what you say, kurgan, is respectable and accurate and you make a fine point about holding Lucas to his OWN standard. however, the fact remains that the movies ARE GREAT. whether as cultural phenomenon or literary genius, there is no denying that. so what is Lucas supposed to say? "Whoops, did i do that? sorry, it was all a big freakn accident!"

i dont know, seems to me he's been rather humble. he stays reclusive on his ranch, and only speaks out when asked. he doesnt force his opinions on anyone and he doesnt claim to be the next shakespeare. he talks a lot about the ideas and themes he had in mind, but these are no more contradictions than any rough draft or abandoned scheme. it is quite possible many ideas were considered simultaneously and openly discussed; accepted or rejected.

perhaps ill continue this thought in my thread AOTR. but till then, just remember, im not talking to people like you, bond or kurgan. its the people who are FANNATICAL in their like or dislike, at which my posts are directed.



I beg to differ. He may not be as flamboyant and egotistical in public as some director/producers or celebrities, but he has said many sour-grapes type things in the past that make him sound dickish. Likewise he's done stuff that shows he's a control freak.

Let's face it, he can get away with it because he's RICH (bitch! as Chappelle would say). He made Star Wars, and that's great, but that doesn't mean he's above criticism.

And yes, I think he does think he's the next Shakespear (or at least the next Brothers Grimm), because he's been painting these tales since '77 as "modern myths" and "fairtales for a new generation" and such. He at least pretends that he's given this great contributor to culture (sure he is, but then so are Britney Spears and Michael Jackson).

So we can talk all we want about the mistakes in the movies and the gaffes Lucas himself has made. But let's not pretend that this is anything more than a set of "dumb movies about space wizards" that made it big. He based the movies on pulp comics and B-movie serials as much as he did on anything out of classic myth and "great literature."

All I'm saying is, we don't need to treat the series with kid gloves just because it's made billions and tops the charts of any "most successful movies of all time" lists. For the same reason we can criticize Peter Jackson, when his LOTR movies have made billions and such.
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Posted 18 July 2007 - 03:25 PM

I'm not sure if he's that megalomaniacal; that'd make him more evil than even Palpatine. blink.gif
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Posted 18 July 2007 - 04:33 PM

Is there some rule that you can't be more evil than Palpatine?

The Emperor is responsible for more deaths by proxy or by order, but let's face it, Vader has DIRECTLY killed more people (the Emperor kills four, and arguably those were all in self defense; Vader kills not only Dooku, two of his own men plus Captain Antilles, at least a half a dozen rebel pilots, as well as countless Jedi plus the Separatist leaders and staff plus the tribe of Sandpeople including numerous women and children and unarmed opponents). He's willing to get his hands bloody to get what he wants or indulge his ego. And unlike all those working for the Emperor, many of those he killed were by his own fiat, not people he was ordered to kill by the Emperor.


I'd say he's pretty megomaniacal, just something stops him from totally taking over for 20 years. I doubt he'd work for the Emperor just because...

I mean LOOK at him in the classic trilogy, the guy is an evil power-mad villain. Sure, he pays lip service to the Emperor, but who wouldn't to get what he wants?

This post has been edited by KurganX: 18 July 2007 - 04:38 PM

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Posted 18 July 2007 - 05:13 PM

May I draw your attention to the fact that the people he killed were utter incompetents? tongue.gif
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Posted 18 July 2007 - 05:23 PM

QUOTE
So anyone who disagrees with what your saying is a "gusher" and is "making excuses"?


QUOTE (KurganX @ Jun 28 2007, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's exactly right


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Just like the good old days...
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