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Contradictions, Plot holes between the Trilogies

#16 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 01:55 PM

jariten:

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So you want to compile a list of plotholes that aren't plotholes?

As you were


Oh? At least you admitted that several of them were really plot holes!

As to the rest you commented on:
Okay, fine, I'll play along for now... wink.gif

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2 - AOTC/ROTS: All stormtroopers are clones of Jango Fett. OT: they have different heights and different voices... none of them sound like Temura Morrison.

Clones were replaced with regular conscripts as their ranks thinned out.


Not explained in the movie, hence, a plot hole. No indication of conscripts filling out the army in Episode III when there must be exponentially more troops. Implication is that somehow they fielded enough clones. If they could do that, what's the need for conscripts 20 years later?

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3 - Size of the Clone Army. AOTC: States 1.2 million "units." By the OT, how can there be enough Stormtroopers to patrol the Galaxy if it takes 10 years to grow them and they age at 2x the normal rate?

See above.


See above. No explanation is given in the movie of how they get so many more clones, and if they can get so many clones in a hurry, (a plot hole between AOTC and ROTS) then what's the need to replace them with conscripts in the OT? Plot hole.

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6 - Design of the Tantive IV (name not stated in movie, but Captain Antilles's ship), how does it change so radically in 20 years? (ROTS vs. ANH)

what?


http://www.chefelf.c...s/ep3_61-70.php

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Chef Elf wrote:

Reason #62
The Tantive IV
It is made clear in the movie that the ship Bail Organa takes Yoda and Obi-Wan on is none other than the Tantive IV, the ship the rebels are in in the opening minutes of the original Star Wars movie, A New Hope. While the interior of the ship in Revenge of the Sith resembles that of the ship we see in A New Hope quite closely, the exterior bears only a basic resemblance. It is not quite clear what exactly happens between the two movies that causes the changes in shape, texture and color by the time A New Hope comes around. It is only clear that the graphics effects artists seemed to have no interest in doing anything other than trying to construct a new Tantive IV model with a computer using only their memory. If that is what was done, then I'd say they did a pretty good job. However, for future productions, they may be better served to examine the old models or even pictures of them.

Fans are already making excuses for this inconsistency by citing numerous Star Wars geek resources such as the Star Wars: Technical Journal which describe the Tantive IV as being modular in design. That is all well and good, but I am interested in knowing exactly how adding and/or subtracting modules can cause the overall size, shape and proportions of a shipt to change so drastically. Perhaps this will be explained in Star Wars: Technical Journal 2: Explaining the Inane.


The pictures explain the rest! wink.gif

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7 - Why doesn't R2D2 remember the past 20 years?

what?


No indication given that he remembers anything useful from the Prequel era. Not persons, not rocket boosters, not events. He's either playing dumb and lying or his memory was erased. Plot hole!

And nobody knows that he's lived through the Prequel era either or else they could think of asking him some question about it.

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8 - Why did Ben Kenobi forget about Leia (ESB vs. ROTS)?

He doesn't, does he? What do you mean?


"That boy was our last hope." He knows Leia is alive, and he knows she's the daughter of Anakin just like Luke. He must know she has equal potential in the Force, and yet he doesn't think to have her trained, doesn't tell her about her past (not even an excuse story like he does with Luke), and even after he's passed into the Jedi afterlife, he's ready to give up just because a barely trained Luke is rushing off to face Vader. Plot hole.

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9 - When did Anakin demonstrate that he was "already a great pilot" when Obi-Wan "first knew him"? (ROTJ vs. TPM)

Podrace. yes, I know, but they use the verb to pilot to describe the act of podracing.
That's how it goes.


Makes no sense in context, because in the conversations about Anakin's piloting skills, they're always compared to Luke's piloting skills. What did Luke pilot? A T-16 Skyhopper, some kind of terrestrial aircraft. Hardly comparable to a pod racer.

That'd be like comparing an F-15 pilot to an Indy car driver. Obi-Wan later clarifies that Anakin was the "greatest STAR PILOT in the galaxy." Plot hole.

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10 - When did Owen show any disagreement with Anakin, to the extent described by Obi-Wan? (ANH vs. AOTC/ROTS)

This isn't a plothole.


Yes it is. He claims it happened, but we never see it. Owen and Anakin barely talk at all. Obi-Wan says they had some kind of disagreement. Is Obi-Wan lying again? It's never explained. Plot hole.

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11 - Why does Yoda say that Jedi never use the Force for attack, but only 'knowledge and defense', and why does he disparage war/warriors? (ESB vs. AOTC/ROTS)

The war and it's fallout has changed him (its clearer if you watch them in order)


He's lying then. He should say that this is his teaching ("never use the Force for attack, only for knowledge and defense, or risk the temptation of the Dark Side you will!" or something like that), not the teaching of the Jedi. He's clearly teaching something in stark contradiction to the Jedi way. No Jedi we ever saw ever lived up to that ideal, not even Yoda himself.

Yoda is lying? Contradiction.

12 - Why was Luke "hidden" on Anakin's home planet, at the homestead of the family his mother married into and his last name not changed? (ROTS vs. ANH)

He wasn't "hidden". he was "dead".

So they weren't hiding the children? Could have fooled me, I watched the ending to Episode III...

So because somebody is presumed dead, keep their last name and put them in a place familiar to the one that might kill them if they knew they were alive? Stupid. Plot hole.

13 - Why doesn't Chewie react to Han Solo's bad-mouthing of the Jedi and the Force? (ANH vs. ROTS)

what?

Chewie was war buddies with Yoda, who had "good relations with the wookiees." Chewie witnessed Yoda's prowess and sounded sad to see him go (as Yoda was going to miss him too) and personally helped him escape. As a veteran, he should have been pissed off that Han would badmouth his friend like this.

15 - Why did the first Death Star take twenty years to build, while the second, larger and more powerful station, was built in 1-3 years? (ROTS vs. ROTJ)

Improved technology? That's not such a leap to make is it?

Weak. Why would a bigger, stronger station, be built in 1/20th the time, in secret? It took them 20 years to build it, and in three years they could improve the design and speed up the production 20x... I don't think so. We always knew they could build a Death Star in 1-3 years. That it took 20 years for the first one was just stupid.

16 - When was it shown that Anakin was a "good man" and a "good friend" before he turned to the Dark Side? (ROTS vs. ANH/ROTJ)

He was obviously a good man who made bad choices. One of the things the trilogy does well is blur the easy good/bad distinctions that the OT made.

Would you call someone who kills women and children because he's upset a "good man"? How about somebody who betrays his vows, badmouths his mentor behind his back and tries to seduce someone who he isn't supposed to be messing with? Padme calls him a "good person" in Episode III, but he's clearly not. He's a psychopathic mass murdering bastard.

Can you separate a person from their deeds? Next thing you know, Palpatine is a bad person who makes some good choices.

Obi-Wan is lying? He knew of Anakin's sins by this point. And by the time Anakin became a father, he was already "twisted and evil." Contradiction.

17 - Why did Obi-Wan refer to Yoda as "The Jedi Master who instructed me" when he was instructed by Qui Gon Jinn? (TPM vs. ESB)

Yoda instructed him when he was a kid. You see this in Ep2

No we don't. We see Yoda teaching a room full of children he refers to as "younglings" and "padawans." According to Episode I, it's impossible for a Jedi Master to take on more than one Padawan at a time (contradiction between Episode I and II). We never see Yoda "instructing" Obi-Wan, rather it is Qui Gon Jinn who does that. (and before you say Yoda instructs ALL the Jedi before they are given to a master, which is a fine explanation but not something explained in the movie... then why didn't he instruct Anakin?)

Contradiction.

18 - Why does Yoda moan about Luke being "too old to begin the training" when Obi-Wan had no problem with it, and supposedly Yoda thought 9 year old Anakin was "too old"? (TPM vs. ANH/ESB)

Not sure what you mean by this. isn't this an OT plothole?

The first part is an OT plot hole, but the second part is a PT contradiction. How old is too old? Why didn't Yoda or Obi-Wan begin training him earlier? If Yoda is just making an excuse, he should have made it right off the bat (especially if 9 years is already "too old").

(continued...)

Hmm... quote tags don't work? Ugh, that's ugly... will try to fix it later then.

19 - What happened to Jar Jar Binks?

Died? Survived? No plothole here.

It's a plot hole, because we never know what happens to one of the main characters from Episode I, who played a fundamental role in the creation of the Galactic Empire. Lucas says he was alive and well after the OT ended, but of course this is not explained in any of the movies, so it's a plot hole.

Did he join the Rebellion? Was he hunted as a traitor? Did he work for the Empire? Plot hole!

20 - (Special Editions) Why does anyone on Tatooine care when the Empire falls?

They were occupied. Did you watch ANH?

Occupied? I only see a few squads of stormtroopers land on the planet as an elite force to locate the Death Star plans and decide to go on a killing spree while they're there.

Episode I establishes that the planet is outside the Republic and ruled by the Hutts. Jabba appears to still be there running the show in ROTJ. Tatooine didn't seem to be a friendly planet to the Rebellion at that time, but neither did it seem to be pro-Imperial during the OT era. So why would a Hutt planet care that the Empire had collapsed?

22 - What happened to all the battle droids?

Shut down on Siddys orders.

C3PO is shut down multiple times in the trilogy. Shutting down a droid does not prevent it from ever working again, or for other droids of its make or model from functioning again. What did they do with all those billions or more of battle droids? Why doesn't the Empire use them anymore, since they are superior to Clones in certain situations and far cheaper to produce in mass quantities?

Plot hole.

24 - If there are only always ever two Sith "no more, no less... a master and an apprentice" (TPM) why does Vader recommend that Luke could be turned into a "powerful ally" and the Emperor agrees he would be a "great asset"? (TPM vs. ESB)

They're both working against each other at this point- vader wants to replace siddy and siddy wants rid of his defective sith (again, its one of the brilliant things about the new trilogy is how it changed the dynamics of the old one)

Ludicrous.

"Hey Palpy, old chum, let's try to kill each other."
"Okay Vader, sounds like a good time!"
"Okay, so let's recruit this guy that could destroy us, you know, so that only one of us dies, because there can be only two!"
"Great idea. May the best Sith win!"

Palpatine wanted Luke dead. Vader said no, he can join US (not "join me OR you, whoever gets to him first!") and will be killed only if he refuses. It's implied that Vader will be the one to turn him and Palpatine agrees (can it be done? he will join us or die master.).

This violates the rule of two (which is never explained in the OT and it's never explained why it would be dispensed with), so it's a contradiction.

It's a stupid development, since it makes the Sith far less of a threat than before, and it makes them into idiots if we're expected to think that a sect that hides in secret to live for millennia to destroy the Jedi will purposely try to commit suicide. What are they, Klingons? This is really, really dumb, and it screws up the EU too, in case you care about that!

26 - Why doesn't Admiral Motti seem aware of the reality of the Force and the power of those who wield it? (PT vs. ANH)

Thats not a plothole.

He's a high ranking military official, privy to all the secret goings on of the Empire on the level with the Moffs. He doesn't know that his boss the Emperor and the boss's right hand man share the same power of the Jedi Order, that was a key government agency in the Old Republic, when he was a young man? How could somebody so ignorant and sheltered have risen to such a high rank?

He must remember the Jedi Knights. Even Tarkin remembers them! Plot hole.

27 - What happened to the Imperial military in those two decades that they lost nearly all their hardware and technology? (ROTS vs. OT)

what?

Battle droids (especially buzz droids, droid fighters and droidekas), ray shields, all those walkers and carryalls and artillery pieces, the technology to create general grievous, portable force fields (droidekas again), ship mounted super lasers (seen in the ROTS battle), and so forth. All gone by the OT era and never seen again. Did they melt down all those battle ships to build the Death Star or something? Plot hole.

28 - Why doesn't Obi-Wan recognize the droids? (ANH vs. PT)

I suppose. R2 units all look alike though.

No they don't, and they don't act alike either. As soon as sees the familiar blue and white coloration, and the serial number "R2D2" (complete with the nickname "Artoo") he should at least be reminded of Amidala, then Anakin's personal droid that saved his butt and the butts of his friends on more multiple occasions. Is he just a really good poker faced liar or are he and R2D2 senile?

Plot hole.

30 - Why don't Luke or Leia ever find out that R2D2 knows everything about their past?

Why would they. R2 knows better than that.
Any more?

Why would R2D2 hold out on them forever? He's just going to keep his mouth shut until everyone dies? Obi-Wan didn't at least give permission for him to tell the real story after he or Vader was dead or something? With all the tinkering done to R2D2, nobody noticed this data in his memory banks and thought it might be useful or interesting to check into? Plot hole.

Now that that's out of the way, yes, there may be more, let's hear 'em... wink.gif

This post has been edited by KurganX: 16 June 2007 - 01:54 PM

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#17 User is offline   Gerhard Icon

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 07:25 PM

QUOTE (Black Charlie @ Jun 16 2007, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
For the Leia remembering her mother - when Luke asks that, Leia has no idea they are brother and sister yet. I can only imagine she is speaking about Bail's wife, who may have died early on in her childhood.


Luke : "You remember your mother? Your real mother"

I'm sure she's talking about their mother, the one who died when Leia was very young.
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#18 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 16 June 2007 - 08:54 PM

KurganX-

I realised the problem after reading your initial post, and should have posted this earlier:

You don't know what a plot hole is.

Some of the ones you posted, the Leia remembering her "real mother" are plot holes, yes.

Things you don't like because you think they are "stupid", are not.

Here's an example- what happened to Jar Jar? This is not a plot hole. It would be a plot hole if, say, Obi had said at the end of Ep3 "and Jar Jar will stay by Lukes side forever!", because he isn't by Lukes side in the next film.

He doesn't appear again, because theres nothing in any of the films that suggest that he will or needs to.

Why isn't the lack of (say) Boss Nass, Amidalas advisor with the white beard (forgotten his name now), or Naboo at all in ep 4 to 6 also not "plot holes"?
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#19 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 05:24 AM

QUOTE (KurganX @ Jun 16 2007, 08:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dang it, how did I know you guys were going to derail my thread? I just wanted a little help compiling a list of contradictions between trilogies, that's all. I already know all the excuses, they're all over wikipedia and TFN and other fanboy gusher hangouts.


Yes, but mine were funnier.

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Kudos to those of you who tried to at least be clever with some of them!

Tried? I don't think so. ;-)

QUOTE (KurganX @ Jun 16 2007, 08:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As for the battle droids shutting down, yes, I'm glad that was resolved, I'm glad "ordered to shut down" means "all battle droids destroyed, all droid factories cease production forever and the plans and software melted down, so that no battle droids can ever be created again."


In my more pathetic moments I break out Star Wars Battlefront game. Those Droidika (rolling droid soldiers) are the most lethal thing on both sides. If they built more of those and less "Roger-Roger Droids" and "Battledroids" (the heavy armor is great for broadsword fights), maybe they would have won.

I remember reading the original Star Wars book ('by George Lucas (yeah right)'). It said when 3PO first saw the Stormtroopers that they were so agile they couldn't be droids but had to be human. Can't find the exact wording, but that's pretty close.

I guess that *should* have been the reason the Clonetroopers beat the Droid armies, but, truth be told, he never showed that. Somehow, the Clonetroopers always win, but many, many of them seem to die. To this day, has Lucas ever said one way or another if Stormtroopers are clones or just Joe Sixpack on his college tuition tour?
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#20 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 08:12 AM

Or to put it another way.

EP3 Sidious: "I will NEVER have regular conscripts in my army! Only clones!"

Then it's a plot hole.

Otherwise, we can healthily assume that he filled out the ranks with regular joes. You might think thats stupid for whatever reason, fine, but it isn't a plot hole.

Much like the other conversations etc. which we can just confer happen offscreen. Again, you might say "thats bad scriptwriting" or something- fine. But it isn't a plot hole.

You need to do more with this than just make a list of things that you think are "stupid", which is all you did above.

This post has been edited by jariten: 18 June 2007 - 08:15 AM

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#21 User is offline   diligent_d Icon

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 12:12 PM

Plotholes, inconsistencies, contradictions, or what ever word you want to use, there are still a lot of them.

Save for #15 (and maybe #20, which I could go either way on) I think KurganX is right on the money with his original list and rebuttals.
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#22 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 18 June 2007 - 06:20 PM

We need someone to collect all the scenes from the movies with everything George Lucas has ever said. Code it as predicate logic, then feed it to a program that sets about identifying all the contradictions. The whole saga may well cancel itself out :-)

A lot of work. Who can do this? I have an answer for that too. Trick fanboys into doing it. Don't tell them what you're going to do at the end. Wouldn't that be an insidious thing to do?
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#23 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 12:26 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ Jun 18 2007, 08:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Or to put it another way.

EP3 Sidious: "I will NEVER have regular conscripts in my army! Only clones!"

Then it's a plot hole.

Otherwise, we can healthily assume that he filled out the ranks with regular joes. You might think thats stupid for whatever reason, fine, but it isn't a plot hole.

Much like the other conversations etc. which we can just confer happen offscreen. Again, you might say "thats bad scriptwriting" or something- fine. But it isn't a plot hole.

You need to do more with this than just make a list of things that you think are "stupid", which is all you did above.


There's no way he could get enough clones fast enough to have a galactic army per the methods established in AOTC that introduced the whole mess, but that's prequel stupidity. But suddenly he does, all via cloning. So there's no NEED for him to conscript anyone.

But then suddenly it's obvious they're not clones, unless he has different clones of different people in the same army (what was the point of cloning them again?). The EU obviously assumes they were never clones. Lucas just created that for the prequels and expects us to swallow it because we can't see their faces, and so that he can now use the extra gaffe as proof that they're clones (because they "inherited" the "head bumping gene" from Jango, their source).

If he can clone enough soldiers in 13 years to prosecute the Clone Wars, he doesn't need to conscript anyone to police the conquered galaxy even 20 years later. It's a mistake, a contradiction and stupid.

Nowhere is it even suggested in the OT that there's a single clone anywhere in the galaxy. We don't even know what "The Clone Wars" actually were, except some event in the past. The EU treats it as "lost technology" that won't be used again except briefly as a threat du jour in the post-ROTJ adventures. Episodes II and III wish us to believe that they've always had clones: the stormtroopers. And they're all of one guy. When the stormtroopers we see in the OT don't meet that (because obviously Lucas didn't think to try to make them all seem alike other than similar uniforms back then), we make up excuses for the difference. If it's not explained in the movie, and you have to make up your own excuse, then that's a plot hole in my book. Something left unexplained. Maybe we're supposed to imagine that the Stormtroopers DO all look and sound the same and they're all Jango clones under those masks, and it's just the limitations of budget and costuming that prevent us from seeing the full extent of the fantasy storyline? wink.gif

People defend Padme's death in Episode III by saying that if she didn't die it would be a plot hole. So I'm saying that yeah, when they don't tell us what happened to all these prequel characters (what happened to all those prequel aliens we never see again?). Did they join the bad guy's side, a la "Gangs of New York"? Did they join the Rebels? Go into hiding? Get killed? Ripe material for EU novels I guess... but no, they'd rather focus on wanking out the Fett/Maul/Grievous type characters and continuing the ridiculous post-ROTJ storylines.

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You need to do more with this than just make a list of things that you think are "stupid", which is all you did above.


Nah, that's just a gusher excuse. The fact that anyone can come up with a counter list of excuses for why the stuff still makes sense, just goes to show that I've got a point! That's specifically why I didn't ask to hear a big long list of excuses! I know, it's a free forum, but I warned ya! wink.gif

This post has been edited by KurganX: 24 June 2007 - 12:29 AM

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#24 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 24 June 2007 - 06:24 AM

So anyone who disagrees with what your saying (and the fact is that you're looking for problems where they don't exist- anyone else would think "well, it took the Emperor so long to make the clone army that he presumably started to replace them with regular troops after he established his empire") is a "gusher" and is "making excuses"?

I like the simplicity of your logic. The fact remains that you don't seem to know what a plot hole is. A few of the things you originally stated though are plot holes, which I think I mentioned at the time.
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#25 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 11:01 AM

QUOTE (jariten @ Jun 16 2007, 07:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That would work, except Luke says "do you remember your mother, your real mother?"

I think Lucas just dropped the ball on it, but its not really a big deal.



How many times is he allowed to drop the ball? I think any time is a big deal, personally. Get another player in there!

Saw SW the other day, and when the landspeeder enters Mos Eisley, jet-booted, hovering, spring-action Artoo is flat on his back. Towards the end he's on some kind of a hand-truck.

Some cute explanation is a vain attempt to persuade OT fans they're wrong. Oh well, tis better than your banging your head against the wall in acceptance you've been HAD.
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#26 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 11:22 PM

QUOTE (Despondent @ Jun 28 2007, 02:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Saw SW the other day, and when the landspeeder enters Mos Eisley, jet-booted, hovering, spring-action Artoo is flat on his back. Towards the end he's on some kind of a hand-truck.


There's actually a good explanation for that: Continuity screwed up. :-)
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#27 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 07:03 PM

QUOTE (jariten @ Jun 24 2007, 06:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So anyone who disagrees with what your saying (and the fact is that you're looking for problems where they don't exist- anyone else would think "well, it took the Emperor so long to make the clone army that he presumably started to replace them with regular troops after he established his empire") is a "gusher" and is "making excuses"?


That's exactly right my friend! wink.gif

If you're willing to make excuses for Lucas' mistakes and oversights, you're a Gusher with a capital "G." They're excuses for him, nothing more...

QUOTE
I like the simplicity of your logic. The fact remains that you don't seem to know what a plot hole is. A few of the things you originally stated though are plot holes, which I think I mentioned at the time.


Tell me what a plot is then, mister smarty-pants...

Surely it isn't just things you can't think of good excuses for at the moment! wink.gif
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#28 User is offline   Storm Icon

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 07:26 PM

The clones aren't a problem, aside from the Jedi being unable to detect their creation. I think Luke being able to get into an x-wing with absolutely no training and destroying the Death Star 30 minutes later is a more significant issue.

This post has been edited by Storm: 28 June 2007 - 07:29 PM

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#29 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 11:09 PM

QUOTE (Storm @ Jun 29 2007, 10:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think Luke being able to get into an x-wing with absolutely no training and destroying the Death Star 30 minutes later is a more significant issue.


That one is easy: He must have used the force. :-)
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#30 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 09:32 PM

QUOTE
The clones aren't a problem, aside from the Jedi being unable to detect their creation. I think Luke being able to get into an x-wing with absolutely no training and destroying the Death Star 30 minutes later is a more significant issue.


That's fine, but I wasn't going to bother with quirks, inconsistencies or plot holes within the specific movies, but rather between the trilogies. There are absurdities in each movie... this would go on forever. wink.gif
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