[Just your average movie goer]

That could work. It's not something that Anakin did when Obi Wan first knew him but it's a hell of a lot better than that tired response about what a great go-kart driver he was and how he accidentally blew up a ship while mucking around with the auto-pilot settings.

People should really get banned for saying that.

Karting and taking it off auto-pilot, going into a spin, and crashing into the droid controll ship with the cannons facing the right direction is not "best pilot in the galaxy" material.

Damn straight, Barend. Damn straight.

Civilian, I think I'll side with Jariten on the matter of Vader killing the Emperor. I don't think that pardons all the wrongs he has done but it looked like seeing Luke suffering at the hands of the Emperor got through to him. Still though, he shouldn't have been that soft. You just can't reconcile the Darth Vader of Return of the Jedi with the Darth Vader or the previous movies. They're two completely different characters.

MG: A better thing would have been for none of those exchanges to occur

Hell yes. Every time Vader tried to fill in a conversation gap with an unrelated comment about a lightsabre...

Don't worry. I know what you mean. Actually, I would have preferred it if Luke didn't speak to Yoda or Obi Wan during the entire movie. Firstly, he didn't have time to go to Dagobah and finish his training.

"Meet you back at the fleet."

"Hurry. The alliance should be assembled by now."

"I will. Don't worry. I'm just finishing my Jedi training. See you in a couple of hours."

He could have gone back later. In fact, the movie could have closed with Luke heading off to Dagobah in his X-Wing.

Also, Obi Wan is dead. But he seems more alive than ever with each reappearance. In Return of the Jedi, he sits down on a log next to Luke and happily answers any question that he might have. Frankly speaking, I think Obi Wan's last appearance should have been that one when he warned Luke as he was rushing off to fight Vader in The Empire Strikes Back.

But yes, you're quite right. If Luke had to work out in his mind that despite the fact Vader was his father, he was a menace to the galaxy that had to be stopped, it would have made a stronger ending. And actually, it's strange that Luke should have wanted to save him anyway after what he did to his friends in The Empire Strikes Back. I think Luke's feelings at the end of that movie were more realistic. He seemed to accept it after the initial shock but he was repulsed by it.

Thank goodness at least that Vader died at the end. Can you imagine how awkward it would have been in Luke had brought him back to the party?

[barend]

But yes, you're quite right. If Luke had to work out in his mind that despite the fact Vader was his father, he was a menace to the galaxy that had to be stopped, it would have made a stronger ending. And actually, it's strange that Luke should have wanted to save him anyway after what he did to his friends in The Empire Strikes Back. I think Luke's feelings at the end of that movie were more realistic. He seemed to accept it after the initial shock but he was repulsed by it.

Of course one could argue that it was fear of luke getting alll sentimental and wanting to 'save' his daddy that prevented them from wanting to tell him. They were going for the; "Oh by the way..." speech, afterwards.

Thank goodness at least that Vader died at the end. Can you imagine how awkward it would have been in Luke had brought him back to the party?

That would have been awsome. All the filthy looks from the rebel pilots who'd just lost their friends and many more over the years, Leia remembering the mind probe, Mon mothma still mourning the bothans, Han still fighting post carbonite lockjaw and erectile disfunction, Lando wishing he had taken out a bigger insurance policy on Cloud City, etc. and Vader walking behind luke in semi shrug state waving to everyone like an economics teacher walking into a highschool kegger.

That would have added some much needed spice to the tale, I tell you what.







Also... Hey MAdame C!!!

[KurganX]

Welcome, fanboy! ;)


Quote tags don't work anymore? Stupid!!!

============================================================
20 years should be enough time to grow loads of clones, particularly since the Empire was rich enough to invest heavily in it. I'll concede the voice part though, that's a plot hole.
============================================================

Really? By my count it should be enough time to grow a total of 2.4 million additional clones. The original batch from AOTC will be too old to be useful in combat (being the equivalent of men in their 60's) by the OT era.

Basically the problem is that we have only one planet producing these clones. But even if we enlist more, let's think about this. If a planet like Kamino is working at double capacity, that's still only 2.4 million clones. Two planets (or systems) working at that capacity, 4.8 million.

It takes a ridiculous amount of time and resources to produce these clones, and they are dropping like flies in battle! The Republic uses them for pilots, tank and gunnery crews as well as cannon fodder!

They will need MILLIONS of planets producing clones to compete with the billions (minimum) of battle droids out there. If there are quadrillions of droids (as the EU apparently states), then they will need BILLIONS of clone producing planets!

Considering they can produce an army of droids apparently in a matter of hours, it's simply ridiculous that the Republic would be able to keep up, even if somehow the clones were magical ubersoldiers of awesomeness (like the Jedi in the clone wars animated series first season), which they clearly aren't, and could take out a few thousand droids each before dying.

It's simple unbelievable that they could have enough clones to win the war, much less police the galaxy even 20 years later, unless they figured out how to grow the clones in a small fraction of the time (or just switch to recruits/conscripts, but hey, don't blame me, it was Lucas who wanted them all to be clones!).

============================================================
I think she was referring to her foster mother. How would she know she was adopted? No one ever told her. At the time, she was not yet aware Luke was her brother. That revelation came about four minutes after Luke asked her this question.
============================================================

Do you remember your mother, your REAL MOTHER? That's the line. Leia should have said "well she was my real mother, I wasn't adopted!" otherwise it's obvious she is referring to her real mother, not her foster mother. She didn't have to know that she had a brother (much less that Luke was it) in order to know she was adopted.


============================================================
I don't recall the interior changing very much, other than it being a lot brighter at the end of RoTS. I think fighting a galactic rebellion would probably leave you with little time to whitewash a ship's interior.
============================================================

The interior looks pretty good. It's the EXterior that's the problem. The ship looks very differently, like it was completely rebuilt. Why would someone do that and keep the name? It'd be cheaper just to build a new ship, and name it something else. It was silly of them not to pay attention and still insist it's the same ship. Sure, most people will think it is, if they aren't fans who actually paid attention to both movies, read the tech manuals, built the model, etc.

============================================================
7 - Why doesn't R2D2 remember the past 20 years?
30 - Why don't Luke or Leia ever find out that R2D2 knows everything about their past?

He does, he just doesn't speak in English so we never know if he's talking about that time he saved Padme etc etc.
============================================================

Except Threepio and others can understand him. They scan his memory banks to get the Death Star plans in ANH. So somebody should find out all this interesting information about the last 20 years. Why doesn't anyone? Remember, his memory was NOT erased! So not only does he never tell anyone, nobody thinks to check this 20 year old hard drive to see if he might have any useful historical information inside him? Yeah right!

============================================================
Since Threepio had a mind wipe, he'd just dismiss it as "delusions of grandeur" and Luke and Leia would probably think he was malfunctioning if he told them they were related.
============================================================

Is he that much of an idiot? And why would Threepio refuse to believe something like that? A simple blood test or some kind of DNA scan could prove it. Besides, why would Threepio dismiss something just be cause HE had a mind wipe? Just because he doesn't remember the past doesn't mean that the droid he hangs out with isn't older than himself. He could surmise that being older and without having had a mind wipe, R2 might have memories going back further than himself.

============================================================
Podracing, accidentally destroying the Trade Federation controlship.
============================================================

Addressed by others, 'nuff said.



============================================================
10 - When did Owen show any disagreement with Anakin, to the extent described by Obi-Wan? (ANH vs. AOTC/ROTS)
[/b]
Never shown onscreen, but I think its reasonable he fabricated this stuff to keep Luke from following in his evil father's footsteps as any good foster parent would do. Admittedly a flimsy one though since this was not explained directly in the film.
============================================================

So he LIED AGAIN? That's pretty lame. Lucas should have addressed it in the story. Instead, young Owen gets like two lines and a glorified cameo. ANH hinted at major animosity and serious bad blood between them. We're given no indication that it was a lie or Obi-Wan is crazy or it happened and we just didn't see it. So he didn't even try to develop this backstory... Weak!



============================================================
11 - Why does Yoda say that Jedi never use the Force for attack, but only 'knowledge and defense', and why does he disparage war/warriors? (ESB vs. AOTC/ROTS)
[/b]
Probably because it was a war that led to the destruction of the Jedi. A Jedi never seeks battle, remember? He just doesn't hide from it if it is necessary.
============================================================

So why give such stupid advice to Luke when he's at war, someone is trying to destroy the Jedi (remember, the Emperor wants him dead, and so far, that's all anyone has tried to do to him, as Luke doesn't know about the Emperor's secret conversation with Vader, where the latter convinces him to let Luke live so he can be "turned")? Is Yoda a complete idiot?

If he doesn't hide from it, why is Yoda living like a hermit on some sh!thole planet, avoiding getting involved with the Empire for 25 years? Why does he hypocritically expect a weak newbie like Luke to go fight by himself, when Yoda has clearly demonstrated he's a badass mofo warrior?

This makes absolutely no sense.

============================================================
That's easy, Vader thought Padme died before she gave birth. Tatooine is on the arse end of the galaxy, and somehow I doubt Vader went home regularly for family reunions with the Lars.
============================================================

He didn't know his children survived (at least at first), true. However he knew the Lars family. He had a connection there. He knew Obi-Wan knew the location of the planet, and he probably knew that it was a hive for gangsters and those in hiding. He wouldn't have at least thought it worthwhile to send a few probe droids to check it out?

Was Tatooine an Imperial planet or not? If it was, it's pretty stupid to have a kid named Skywalker living in a home Anakin has visited with people Anakin knows and is somewhat related to.

============================================================
At that point Chewie's over 200 years old, Han is not yet 30. Sometimes the old ones know when to hold their tongues and let the youth be content with their imagined superiority.
============================================================


But why? Chewie doesn't act like he's 200 years old... but if he was, that's even less reason for him to stay quiet and let Han spout BS. 200 years ago, the Republic was going strong and the Jedi were in their flower. But the point is that Chewie was war buddies with Yoda, the Jedi Master, and Han basically just called the Jedi a bunch of conmen who's religion was garbage. There should have been a beat-down... or at least some harsh language for his partner's faux pas.



============================================================
I wondered this myself. Maybe the second time around they really rushed their asses off to get the job done? Btw they had four years to do it, that's the space of time between ANH and RoTJ. Assuming they started immediately. The second time you do something it's faster, though going from 20 to 4 years is a tad dubious imo.
============================================================

Actually the opening crawl of ROTJ makes it sound as if it had just begun, so at best, a year (the time from ESB to ROTJ). At least you admit this one though. ;)


============================================================
In RoTS. Anakin was a full Jedi and Obi Wan's friend, and very much devoted to his secret wife. That's part of the tragedy, seeing how good Anakin was as opposed to what he would be by the film's end.
============================================================

They don't act very friendly to one another. Basically we get one scene of them acting like that, the rest of the time it's like they are two guys at the office who are stuck on the same team but just barely tolerate each other. After all the crap Anakin put him through in the last movie though, how Obi-Wan could call him a "good man" and a "good friend" is just ridiculous. Is he an idiot? Sure, Padme was totally delusional, and she should Anakin was a "good person" even though she knew he was a mass murderer (of children, no less!)... but Obi-Wan? It's really out of character to say that, unless we just say he lied about this too.




============================================================
Another semi-truth, as Obi-Wan was doubtless trained first by Yoda as a youngling and later by Qui-Gonn for a formal padawanship. Maybe it's correct "from a certain point of view"? :P
============================================================


But again, this is one of those "the movies tell us nothing, so we just guess that maybe this happened off camera" just because we see Yoda training a couple of kids one time (even though in the previous movie it was established that a Jedi could train only one Padawan at a time, and Yoda does call these kids padawans, not just Younglings). It's fine if you explain it, but as is, it's like they just don't tell us and expect us to make something up over the course of three movies.

============================================================
Because most Jedi were trained from birth and I bet Yoda was afraid Luke would turn to the dark side like his father did and make things even worse. Remember when he warned Luke not to go to Cloud City lest he become "an agent of evil?"
============================================================

Of course Yoda was wrong about that. If he was really concerned about Luke being too old, why did he wait so long to train him? He could have trained him from birth (or had Obi-Wan do it). What, were the Jedi just afraid to change diapers? (Not like you could really train a baby to do much anyway)

Basically it seems like Obi-Wan was just waiting for somebody to kill off Owen and Beru (what, couldn't he just force them to turn Luke over to him or kidnap him or something if the mind trick method doesn't work? Why bring him there in the first place?) so he could start training him, then get killed, and hope that a few years later he'd wander to Yoda's hideout (after a ghostly suggestion when Luke is about to die from hypothermia on some frozen wasteland of a planet) and then have Yoda moan that he's "too old" even though he's supposedly the last hope of the galaxy (nevermind that they forget about Leia, and never bother to try to train her EVER).

========
Who cares?
========

It's still a plot hole. Lucas invents this new character, gives him a few major roles (get the Gungans into the Naboo fight to resolve the outcome of the movie; get Palpatine emergency powers so he can take himself most of the way towards becoming the de-facto Emperor) and then refuse to show or even suggest what happened to him. Sure, he told us in an interview that he probably lived a quiet life and died of natural causes a long time after the movies all ended, but still. That's nothing the movie-goer is going to benefit from.

Most people were just so annoyed with the character, they wanted to see him die in an awful and amusing manner!

Quote

20 - (Special Editions) Why does anyone on Tatooine care when the Empire falls?

Stormtroopers getting drunk in your bar all the time would piss you off too.

Okay, kudos for that one. :)

Quote

21 - Why does Obi-Wan wear his Jedi uniform "in hiding" on Tatooine? (ANH vs. TPM/AOTC/ROTS)

He didn't have anything else to wear? Again, Tatooine is a long way from the Core. Vader wouldn't have a reason to be travelling there and anyone else besides him and the Emperor wouldn't be able to resist the good 'ol mind trick. ("I'm not really here, I'm dead and thus a figment of your imagination!")

Ever hear of buying a new set of clothes? Steal some? Don't tell me he wore those same robes for 20 years? They weren't in that great of shape by the end of ROTS as it was!

What happens if somebody notices him but he doesn't notice them and they get away to contact the authorities? Or what if he comes across somebody that can resist it? Is he going to waste time murdering people and hiding the crimes when he could just get a shave, change his names (BOTH of them, not just his first name) and invest in a different set of clothes? Is he an idiot?

Quote

Old technology, clones are superior, remember?

So why do they still use droids? The astromech and protocol droids haven't changed a bit in all that time. They still use similar probes and other types of floaty droids, so what gives?

The EU is full of battle droids being used after ROTJ. They're clearly superior to stormtroopers or rebel commandos. I know the Kamino guy claimed they were superior, but he's like a used car salesman. The fact that you can produce a droid in a matter of minutes or hours (when a clones takes 10 years of feeding and education), slap a gun in his hands and ship him off to fight, and turn him off when he gets to be a burden makes them infinitely superior as a combat unit than a clone.

Besides, why use clones at all? They're just regular humans who society at large doesn't seem to care about being used as cannon fodder (but since when do totalitarian military dictatorships care about such petty things as human rights and politically correct opinion?) and follow all orders without question and age 2x as fast (which means they'll also be useless to the military in half the time).

There should be piles of battle droids sitting around but we don't see a single one for the next 25 years. Why not? They can't ALL of been destroyed, can they?

Quote

He survived it, didn't he? He took the lightning treatment a lot longer than Mace did.

He only survived it because Vader intervened. Plus, Mace was thrown out a window remember? We never see him die from the lightning. Luke doesn't even try to block it (granted, he does block it momentarily in the novel, but in the movie, we get nothing).

Quote

I sometimes wonder if he was resisting part of it through the Force, looking like he was getting rinsed on purpose to try to wake the good man in his father. Remember when the Emperor pronounced "And now, young Skywalker - you shall die." and then after a moment looked very pissed when Luke didn't then continued the barrage?

Or perhaps Mace was doing the same thing? Or maybe the Emperor had it on low power because he just wanted to torture Luke for awhile before he killed him and Vader got the brunt end of the "lethal level" lightning? How much does Vader survive? Not much more than Mace, if that...

Quote

Because each was planning on killing the other and taking Luke as apprentice:
Emperor - "Now, take your father's place at my side!"

Then they're both complete and utter morons.

Why would these guys suddenly decide to agree to kill each other?

It's more believable to assume that Vader wanted to take out his boss all along (when he was supposed to be loyal and Palpy assumed he was loyal), and Palpy only wanted Luke to kill Vader LATER after he started getting suspicious and saw that Luke was powerful anyway, and killing his father in anger would be enough to push him over the edge.

The original plan was for Luke to be killed. Then it was changed to him joining so the three of them could be in charge. Then Vader came up with a secret plan to kill the Emperor. Palpatine decided on the spur of the moment to replace Vader with Luke. It's just stupid to say that the Sith periodically and openly scheme against each other, when there are only two of them and they are supposedly trying to survive to avenge themselves on the 10,000 Jedi Knights...

Plus, in the OT era, they are in charge, they've won! So why this stupid scheming and crap as some kind of suicidal sith tradition?

Quote

Vader - "You can destroy the Emperor! ... Join me, and we can rule the galaxy as father and son!"

That was just Vader's plotting on his own initiative. I refuse to accept this EU-spawned crap that all Sith always try to kill all other Sith, when they are basically shooting themselves in the foot in doing so, over and over again.

If Palpatine was really a Sith as this portrayal indicates of the suicidal Sith, he should have said

Palpatine: oh, trying to kill me and get the boy as your apprentice, eh Vader? Well, we'll make a Sith's agreement, first one to turn the boy gangs up and kills the other... deal? In the end...

Vader: There can be only two!

Quote

Tatooine life is very harsh? Another possible disconnect.

So how does Anakin age even faster inside that suit living on Coruscant or wherever?

Quote

Would you be afraid of an ancient religion when you're sitting on a planet-killing station the size of a small moon?

Wouldn't you at least realize that one of those Jedi guys is standing a few feet from you and can do some crazy sh!t to you? It's not like he's going to throw Vader outside, and aim some turbolasers at him if he tries any crap! Even if Vader's powers are crap (Motti has no reason to doubt them since he'd have been old enough to remember when the Jedi were front page news), he knows the guy has a lightsaber and could cut him a new one, right?

And even if he was an idiot and didn't know what a lightsaber was, at least he can see that the guy is like six foot seven and in great shape, and could probably kick his ass easily, right?

It just doesn't make sense for him to mouth off like that AS IF, he thinks the Force is all fake, when he should know better. In the original plotline before the prequels, we could simply surmise that the Jedi in the Republic were before his time and so he honestly didn't know what they were capable of.

Quote

If anything, their technology advanced. The star destroyers were much shinier in the OT.

You mean they lacked paint and decals.... ;)

They suddenly lose all their hovercraft, theater shielding and most of their walkers, their droid fighters and battle droids, they lose all those nifty gadgets! Suddenly they're left with a couple of piloted fighters, guys with guns, walkers and bikes. What happened? Budget cuts and a massive scuttling, salvaging and re-assignment program?

There's a lot of droids in the galaxy. Why would they be the same ones? That's an awfully big coincidence! (And more than a little corny, if I may say.)

Owen hasn't seen any other Protocol droids on Tatooine has he?
Neither of them have seen any Protocol droids that talk like Threepio and have his personality, have they?
Neither of them have ever seen an astromech that looks like R2D2 and has his same name, have they?

At least they should react because they remind them of those old droids, but they act like they've never seen them before and even after spending some time with them, still nothing. Why? Are they just that poker-faced of liars or stoics?

Why would he? He didn't know Luke and barely knew Anakin.

Who says that knowing Luke is a prerequisite for appearing as a Jedi spirit? Qui Gon didn't know Luke (though he could have watched over him as a child, after all, he was supposedly "training" Obi-Wan and Yoda, right?) but he knew Obi-Wan and Yoda. And we KNOW he was watching over Anakin, since he freaked out when Anakin was killing the Sandpeople, so loud that Yoda heard him (see AOTC).

Why not come hang out with them? And aside from Yoda and Obi-Wan (and Anakin, inexplicably), he's the only character in Jedi history (apparently) to discover the secret of immortality (not to mention the first). He ought to appear.


Nobody watching the 2004 OT is going to recognize Hayden Christiansen's face in there, but somehow he's there, so throwing in Liam Neeson won't hurt anything worse than it already is!


He was the Chosen One, it stands to reason since he was conceived by the midichlorians he was born with the ability to become "One with the Force." Plausible at the very least, imo.

So he just automatically has secret knowledge that other people have to be "trained" to know?

Okay, great, that explains everything. ;)

Can he also fly? After all, he's the chosen one!

Does Luke also know how to become a spirit? After all, he's the chosen one's son! Or does he need to be "trained" first?

Palpatine's midichlorians must be pretty high, can he turn into a spirit?


Most fathers want their sons to be like them. Though the way he said it, I think Obi-Wan was making shit up to get Luke to become a Jedi so he could kill Vader and the Emperor, which is what Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted him to do.

Except the Jedi aren't allowed to marry, much less have children, and Padme's pregnancy was a complete surprise (read: accident) to Anakin. So when did he have time to express to Obi-Wan that if he had a son (?) he would want to give his lightsaber to him? (what proof would he have that his son would even have force potential?)

I can only presume now that Obi-Wan was lying again... :P

This is so semantical, I don't even remember it. Are you seriously presenting this as a plot hole?

Yes. What happened to all those other wars? How does Yoda know what it's going to be called after the first battle (but gets it wrong by stating it in the plural rather than the singular?)

Would couldn't Lucas have just added an "s" (and change "has" to "have" to make it somewhat grammatically correct, at least as far as Yoda is concerned) or better yet, just deleted the line?

Because he was emphasizing Vader was lost to him. Remember how quickly Obi-Wan and Yoda decided Anakin needed to be killed after turning? Talk about friends with little faith.

That makes no sense. He doesn't call him "Darth" at any other time, and nobody refers to any of the other Sith in that manner. Why not just call him some random insult? The way he uses it is as if "Darth" is his first name (which it was, until 1999 when it suddenly became a title for all Sith Lords).

Well, he lost the fight, didn't he? Anakin was more powerful but Obi-Wan was more experienced. And I think it's pretty often stressed that experience beats raw, unseasoned power most of the time.

Yoda "lost" to Palpatine, so Yoda is but a learner? Dooku lost to Anakin, so Dooku is but a learner?
Obi-Wan and Anakin both lost to Dooku, so they're but learners? This is silly.

It doesn't matter who is more experienced, it's clear from ROTS that Anakin is a fully trained Jedi Knight by the time he and Obi-Wan fight. He's even on the Jedi Council and his missing the rank of "Master" is a mere technicality born of politics. Vader's line implies that he was something other than a fully fledged Jedi when he last met Obi-Wan, or something along those lines.

37 - Did Obi-Wan really stop going by that name (and start going by the name "Ben") "before" Luke was born? (ANH vs. ROTS)
[/b]
Actually it was about five minutes after he was born. I think it was just an old man dramatizing again.

He isn't referred to as "Ben" at all in the Prequel trilogy. So for all we know, he didn't start going by "Ben" until Luke was a child, several years later. Why say "before" when you really mean "after"?



1 - Age of the Republic. ANH: "A thousand generations" vs. AOTC: "a thousand years"
2 - AOTC/ROTS: All stormtroopers are clones of Jango Fett. OT: they have different heights and different voices... none of them sound like Temura Morrison.
5 - When did Obi-Wan Kenobi serve Bail Organa during the Clone Wars? (ANH)
8 - Why did Ben Kenobi forget about Leia (ESB vs. ROTS)?
14 - Why doesn't R2D2 ever use his rocket boosters again? (AOTC/ROTS)


I consider these indefensible, confirmed plot holes.


Finally, credit where credit is due! ;)

It's the main reason prequels usually aren't done, it's too easy to forget the things you stated in the first films, especially in the span of 20 years.

Except you forget that it's not as if Lucas had to scratch his head remembering what happened twenty years ago. All he has to do is pop in the tapes and sit down with a pad and jot down some notes (or, if he's too lazy, remember that he's a rich millionaire and pay an intern or two to do it for him, while he takes naps and sips lemonade in his hammock or something). As he's writing the prequels, refer to this pad to make sure he doesn't screw up basic points like that. Simple!

The reason prequels are done is to make money off the fans and nostalgia of the original work by telling you the backstory of the earlier work. People still don't understand why Star Wars fans nitpick over the differences between the two trilogies or had expectations that weren't met?

C'mon! If Lucas didn't want to face such possible criticisms, he shouldn't have made prequels, but sequels or just some other unrelated sci fi series or a new set of stories in the same universe.

Sure, Star Wars isn't perfect, but it's got far less plot holes than some people claim.

Like what? All the things I mentioned were valid. At best you can quibble with one or two of them, but the fact is that there's major contradictions, plot holes, and incongruities between the trilogies, and frankly a lot of disappointing revelations, resolutions and explanations.

How bad does it have to be before you fanboys will allow people to talk about them?

And Kurgan, do you hate Harry Potter this much? Calm down!

Why do fanboys assume that if somebody spends some time talking about contradictions between stories that are hyped as flowing together as part of a grand saga, it must mean they are HATED?

You're obviously new here so you haven't heard me say already a dozen times that I didn't HATE the prequels. I was let down by them yes, I disliked nearly everything about Episode I (I was only excited at the time that there was a new star wars movie out, I held out thinking that they'd get better and it would make more sense in context of the other two, and the ending lightsaber fight was awesome, oh and the soundtrack wasn't too bad... though I've gotten sick of "duel of the fates" now since every video game and show and fan film re-uses it ad naseum). The romance was poorly done and cringe inducing, and Episode III, while pretty great, had its share of silly moments and left me with the "why did they save all this till the end to rush it up?").

And as far as Harry Potter is concerned, that's a red herring since this ISN'T a Harry Potter board and what I think of HP has no bearing on valid criticisms of the Star Wars movies or George Lucas' storytelling/directing skills.

However, since you asked my opinion, I'll give it:

I'm indifferent. I never read (and don't plan) to read the books. I saw the first movie on DVD because a friend of mine who wasn't really a fan before thought it was so good I HAD to see it. It was enjoyable enough, so I watched the next on disc as well one time out of sheer boredom and it wasn't as good though the SFX were better and more overdone. The third got good reviews so I saw it at the cheap student cinema thinking it'd look good on the big screen (it did, of course). Basically I thought that there was no consistent ruleset for the "reality" they were in. The magical underpinnings just made it possible for anything to happen at anytime, and so the characters never seemed to be in any real danger, stuff just seemed to happen randomly just because it looked cool and much of the CG looked really fake. Plus the same themes just kept getting replayed over and over again... okay, so Harry is a kid with great potential who doesn't like to follow the rules but he's overall a good guy at heart and loyal to his friends, and there's bullies at school and nutty teachers who want to crimp his style, and eventually everyone is going to grow up, go through puberty and start getting horny, meanwhile the big bad guy is breathing down everyone's neck, but we don't really get to see him, just some "villain of the week" who gets eliminated in some strange magical way deus ex machina. We get it!

Basically they're popcorn movies... a forgetable mix of any cliched schoolboy coming of age story with some wizard of oz/alice in wonderland stuff thrown in as eyecandy. Of the three I've seen the first was the best, because it was still fresh and Harry was still a little kid full of wonder, and not becoming full of himself and some kind of big man on campus/chosen one wannabe (that we've seen a million times before).

Maybe it's because they're aimed at the grade school set and I'm a twenty-something non-brit who hasn't camped out to get the books?

It's great that school kids are reading long books. It's silly that people get upset about fantasy "corrupting the young" (maybe some stuff, but Harry Potter? c'mon now...), and the stuff is just over hyped. Not really for me. I figure I've given it more than a fair shot.

I admit I was a bit tempted to see the latest one in IMAX 3D but then I found out that only a few minutes near the end is actually in 3D. Not worth it, imho...


Now if I were on a Harry Potter board, especially one devoted to picking apart the problems in it, I would feel totally free to express myself about that, and I'd get a little upset if somebody tried to tell me I couldn't do that! ;)

Well that's pretty lame. The quote tags worked, then stopped working, then started again.

What gives? Do they just not like long posts with lots of quotes in them?

I guess my long posting style is too XXXTREME FOR THIS BOARD! ;)

This post has been edited by KurganX: 23 August 2007 - 02:40 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

Actually, Barend, I have to say Vader rocking up to the party with Luke sounds pretty funny when you put it like that.

Oh, and Rosenrot, looks like you're on afterall. Kurgan X still has the fight in him.

[Casual Fan]

To respond about Tatooine, Obi Wan and Yoda make the decision to hide Luke from Vader on Tatooine, with Vader's relatives, under the name "Skywalker". They put Leia with a different family on a different planet.

This is a really stupid decision. Why run all those risks of Vader finding out like that? Yoda could have taken Luke to Dagobah. When the rebellion started, Luke could have been moved to the care of the rebels, instead of waiting until stormtroopers were headed to the farm. Owen probably would have been glad to get rid of him.

With some thought and effort, Lucas before starting the prequels could have avoided this. Maybe Anakin Skywalker isn't from Tatooine. Maybe its Vader who gave Luke to Obi Wan to be hidden from the Emperor, and he knows where Luke is all along. Or maybe Obi Wan doesn't know that Anakin Skywalker and Vader are the same person, he sees Anakin disappear when he was one of the good guys then Vader turns up, so he assumes Vader killed Anakin. He doesn't find out what really happened until he becomes one with the Force (ie becomes a ghost).

But that wasn't the point I was making. The reason I'm making a big deal of this is that if Lucas sat down and made sense of this apparent contradiction, he could have come up with at least three different but compelling directions to take the prequels, as I outlined above. They would have unfolded naturally, and in harmony with the OT. Instead, he pretty much made up an unrelated story for the "Prequels", then came up with half-assed explanations for the inevitable contradictions that arose with the OT because he decided to use some OT settings and characters.

On another thread I pointed out that Asimov, who is a much better scifi writer than Lucas did something different. Late in life he wrote four "Foundation" books when he really wasn't interested in the "Foundation" anymore. So the four books are really sequels to the "Robots" series, that have "Foundation" in the title, and have a Foundation character and some settings. Not surprisingly, there is alot there that contradicts the original "Foundation" series and not surprisingly most fans of the original series don't have a high opinion of them.

[Just your average movie goer]

As much as everyone likes to argue the point about Anakin coming from Tatooine, it's a moot argument as the original Star Wars implicitly tells us that that is indeed where he came from.

I'd suggest to anyone who's interested to have a look at my thread on the subject Unearthing the fossil - What do we know about the back story?.

I'll just show the relevant dialogue to this point for now -

Oh my father didn't fight in the war. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.

That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals. He thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.

What does this mean? It means there was a war going on, during which both Anakin and Owen were living on Tatooine. Owen thought it was no concern on theirs but Anakin wanted to help out and so he left the relative safety of his planet to go to war.

It's funny, isn't it? That one concept there sounds more interesting than the entire prequel trilogy already. But anyway, Lucas should have paid more attention to his own movies.

This post has been edited by Just your average movie goer: 23 August 2007 - 11:07 PM

[Casual Fan]

That point has been raised earlier and I recognize it. Without wishing to get too far astray from the main topic:

1. Those two sentences from Obi Wan are the ONLY things in the OT linking Anakin Skywalker to Tatooine. Given the actual result of the prequels, if you can construct three movies and only contradict two sentences, that's not bad.

2. If you haven't noticed, other parts of Obi Wan's account gets contradicted in the OT itself. Like the part about Vader killing Anakin. This account really shouldn't be taken as gospel.

3. The larger plot hole is why hide Luke on Tattoine in the first place? I posited three different solutions, two of which make Tattoine Anakin Skywalker's home planet. All three have difficulties, but that is why this is a pretty serious plot hole in the first place.

The point is to go back to the OT and to try to make sense of the backstory. Once you do that, of course there are other contradictions and you have to make sense of those. Gradually you start working your way into pretty interesting story, that can be used for the prequels.

Lucas had a story to tell, and seems to have ignored the backstory or tried to paper it over. He really should have some format other than movies linked to an existing trilogy instead. If he had lost interest in the OT movies, it would have been better to leave them alone.

[civilian_number_two]

That point has been raised earlier and I recognize it. Without wishing to get too far astray from the main topic:

1. Those two sentences from Obi Wan are the ONLY things in the OT linking Anakin Skywalker to Tatooine. Given the actual result of the prequels, if you can construct three movies and only contradict two sentences, that's not bad.

It depends on what the two sentences were. If they'd been "in those days everyone had four arms," and "your father was black," then the PT would be pretty weak to just drop those details.

I agree with Movie Goer that the backstory established in STAR WARS is more interesting than, and renders unnecessary any effort to tell, the stories of the prequels. Those movies were pointless exercises in less-than-state-of-the-art CGI effects.

[Toru-chan]

I agree with Movie Goer that the backstory established in STAR WARS is more interesting than, and renders unnecessary any effort to tell, the stories of the prequels. Those movies were pointless exercises in less-than-state-of-the-art CGI effects.

Amen CN2. Often Backstory is best left as backstory. If you probe too deeply, the cracks show and logical contradictions come pouring out. But fans get eager and clamor for more. Once-talented has-beens, their talentless offspring, and/or for-profit publishers smell dollars and start pumping out anything with the brand name on it. In the SHOSW they say in the 1990s Lucas' revenues has slumped, and that this was one motivation towards doing more SW movies.

Wouldn't it have been cool, assuming he had the talent to do so (rrrreoooowww!), if he started a new saga, fantasy or sci-fi, in some other galaxy with new characters completely unrelated to SW. Free from constraints, backstory baggage, or satisfying the enraptured loins of hopeless fan bois, he could have woven a whole new tale.

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 24 August 2007 - 03:09 AM

[Just your average movie goer]

But why wish that Lucas had done that? Another person could just as easily have done it - and that's just the thing that baffles me. Why, three decades after Star Wars came out, hasn't anyone made another movie like it? It wouldn't be too hard. You could have a back-drop where two planets are at war. You could have even a war on a single high-tech world with a story focusing on a group of loveable fighter pilots. It wouldn't have to be complicated or have an important social message for us (and I'd prefer it if it didn't). Surely, that can't be that difficult.

Those two sentences from Obi Wan are the ONLY things in the OT linking Anakin Skywalker to Tatooine.

So what? Do things cease to be true if you don't mention them enough? Perhaps I should stop bitching about how I'm not rich then.

That scene in Obi Wan's homestead gives us the most interesting look at what came before in the whole series. Why would you contradict that?

Anyway, I've said it before, and Civilian and Toru-Chan have said it again. We get enough of the back story in the original movies and it's far more interesting than the prequels could ever hope to be.

In fact, the whole idea of making a prequel to a self-contained story is pretty pretentious. Heaps of stories out there have back-stories that lead up to the events they depict - and they generally manage to convey these as they pan out.

It would have been better if Lucas hadn't labelled The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi as Episodes V and VI. Actually, I remember being irked by that even when I was a kid. I thought it was pretty daft calling a movie Episode IV if you hadn't made Episodes I, II and III yet.

One thing I really like about the original DVDs is that when you watch Star Wars, after the words Star Wars blaze across the screen, it just goes straight into introduction. There's no "Episode IV" or "A New Hope". It's great. Now, if only they had removed the "Episode V" and "VI" lines from the other movies.

[rosenrot]

What's with quote tags on this forum, anyway? >.<

Fine, I accept your challenge, Kurgan. *snap-hiss*.
(Since you appear to enjoy having everything explained to you beyond a doubt, that was a lightsaber igniting.)

Welcome, fanboy!

I'm not a fanboy. Disagreeing with you != fanboyism, though if you enjoy playing with strawmen I'd see why you would attempt that predictable approach.

Really? By my count it should be enough time to grow a total of 2.4 million additional clones. The original batch from AOTC will be too old to be useful in combat (being the equivalent of men in their 60's) by the OT era. .....

That's a lot of words for such a simple thing. I don't recall hearing a quote as to how many stormtroopers there were in the galaxy. And the officers and commandos were clearly not clones so there was some verifiable conscription going on there. I don't think this is such a huge point of contention.

Do you remember your mother, your REAL MOTHER? That's the line. Leia should have said "well she was my real mother, I wasn't adopted!" otherwise it's obvious she is referring to her real mother, not her foster mother. She didn't have to know that she had a brother (much less that Luke was it) in order to know she was adopted.

Must you be so pedantic? "Real mother" means different things to different people; it does not refer to one's biological mother in and of itself; some people consider their "real" parent to be the one who raised them. It's a matter of your POINT OF VIEW.

The interior looks pretty good. It's the EXterior that's the problem. The ship looks very differently, like it was completely rebuilt. Why would someone do that and keep the name? It'd be cheaper just to build a new ship, and name it something else. It was silly of them not to pay attention and still insist it's the same ship. Sure, most people will think it is, if they aren't fans who actually paid attention to both movies, read the tech manuals, built the model, etc.

Perhaps you're more a fan than I am if you notice details such as this. Is it even the same ship, confirmed by dialogue in the film? The color changed, sure, but again, war is more important than regular paint jobs.

Except Threepio and others can understand him. They scan his memory banks to get the Death Star plans in ANH. So somebody should find out all this interesting information about the last 20 years. Why doesn't anyone? Remember, his memory was NOT erased! So not only does he never tell anyone, nobody thinks to check this 20 year old hard drive to see if he might have any useful historical information inside him? Yeah right!

They were looking for the plans to the thing coming to kill them, not Anakin's favorite food as a child. Why would they be looking for information like that?

Is he that much of an idiot? And why would Threepio refuse to believe something like that? A simple blood test or some kind of DNA scan could prove it. Besides, why would Threepio dismiss something just be cause HE had a mind wipe? Just because he doesn't remember the past doesn't mean that the droid he hangs out with isn't older than himself. He could surmise that being older and without having had a mind wipe, R2 might have memories going back further than himself.

You didn't notice Threepio's condescending attitude towards R2? I think it's perfectly feasible that R2 said some things referring to old times that Threepio just dismissed as dribble. Droids don't have feelings or egos so why would R2 try to talk about those times?

Finally, if you must have movie evidence: R2 got really fried by Vader's stray laser blast at the end of ANH. I get the feeling that may have messed with his memory banks. Who knows, maybe they had to mind wipe him to fix some of his basic functions? I don't think everything needs to be outlined clearly and concisely in the film to explain occurrences like this. If you prefer not to interpret your films a little, perhaps you should stick to something safer, such as MTV? I understand it runs some exciting reality shows that require zero intellectual interaction to fully enjoy.

Addressed by others, 'nuff said.

Addressed poorly, I might add. Not liking the way something was done does not constitute it being a "plot hole". Podracing occurs at speeds of hundreds of kph, you really think any nine year old can do that? He was clearly a skilled pilot at that age, and got even better as he grew older. He was not claimed to be the "greatest pilot in the galaxy" at age nine, just better than what would be expected of a nine year old.

So he LIED AGAIN? That's pretty lame. Lucas should have addressed it in the story. Instead, young Owen gets like two lines and a glorified cameo. ANH hinted at major animosity and serious bad blood between them. We're given no indication that it was a lie or Obi-Wan is crazy or it happened and we just didn't see it. So he didn't even try to develop this backstory... Weak!

Obi-Wan was pretty manipulative in trying to get Luke to kill Vader. I wouldn't put it past him.

So why give such stupid advice to Luke when he's at war, someone is trying to destroy the Jedi (remember, the Emperor wants him dead, and so far, that's all anyone has tried to do to him, as Luke doesn't know about the Emperor's secret conversation with Vader, where the latter convinces him to let Luke live so he can be "turned")? Is Yoda a complete idiot?

If he doesn't hide from it, why is Yoda living like a hermit on some sh!thole planet, avoiding getting involved with the Empire for 25 years? Why does he hypocritically expect a weak newbie like Luke to go fight by himself, when Yoda has clearly demonstrated he's a badass mofo warrior?

This makes absolutely no sense.

Because Yoda knows he can't match both the Emperor and Palpatine. He also knows that Imperial forces would kill him on sight instead of merely capturing him. The Emperor and Vader want Luke alive to attempt to turn him, they know Yoda is not turnable so they would not bother. As Vader's son, Luke has all the power Vader has, with the potential to become more since Vader's injuries on Mustafar (this isn't EU speculation, it was confirmed by Lucas.) I think the intention was for Luke to go to the Emperor and Vader, pretend to be receptive to the idea of turning, defeat Vader in single combat, and then kill the Emperor after pretending to have replaced Vader at his side. I believe Luke was powerful enough to succeed in this approach. Taking both the Emperor and Vader at the same time probably would've failed, Luke did not receive as much training as he should have. This is why they did not want to tell Luke Vader was his father, because it would make him more reluctant to strike Vader down. But he found an alternative approach that worked well enough.

Oh, and as to why they hid Luke away instead of training him from birth: this was explained in the novelization. Yoda, through insight gained from the Force, said that the Jedi way was not the only lifestyle that promoted discipline. The Old Order died because Yoda didn't let it change, training Luke the same way as the other thousands of Jedi before him would've kept him in the same old mold. Yoda wanted to "break the mold", so to speak.

He didn't know his children survived (at least at first), true. However he knew the Lars family. He had a connection there. He knew Obi-Wan knew the location of the planet, and he probably knew that it was a hive for gangsters and those in hiding. He wouldn't have at least thought it worthwhile to send a few probe droids to check it out?

Was Tatooine an Imperial planet or not? If it was, it's pretty stupid to have a kid named Skywalker living in a home Anakin has visited with people Anakin knows and is somewhat related to.

Why would he investigate Tatooine? He did not believe his son to be alive.

Tatooine was not an Imperial planet, it was still held by the Hutts. There was a small Imperial garrison there but nothing that Obi couldn't mind trick his way around.

One thing I do wonder is why Vader did not make more of an effort to hunt down and kill Obi-Wan. I suppose it's another one of those holes left over from the way Episode 3 was presented to us. I think Lucas originally intended there to be much more than 20 years between Episode 3 and 4.

But why? Chewie doesn't act like he's 200 years old... but if he was, that's even less reason for him to stay quiet and let Han spout BS. 200 years ago, the Republic was going strong and the Jedi were in their flower. But the point is that Chewie was war buddies with Yoda, the Jedi Master, and Han basically just called the Jedi a bunch of conmen who's religion was garbage. There should have been a beat-down... or at least some harsh language for his partner's faux pas.

I don't know, Chewie isn't human so expecting him to act like one isn't really reasonable. Perhaps Wookies don't have egos as large as humans? Maybe their long-term memory is bad?

Actually the opening crawl of ROTJ makes it sound as if it had just begun, so at best, a year (the time from ESB to ROTJ). At least you admit this one though.

To be honest, it was cool seeing Vader join the Emperor and Tarkin on the bridge of that early Star Destroyer. But seeing the death star frame outside the viewport made me gaffe. 20 years to build it the first time, a fraction of that the second time? I don't think so

Clearly Lucas wanted to create a clear and concise transition between the old and the new. Even if it wasn't precisely faithful to canon.

They don't act very friendly to one another. Basically we get one scene of them acting like that, the rest of the time it's like they are two guys at the office who are stuck on the same team but just barely tolerate each other. After all the crap Anakin put him through in the last movie though, how Obi-Wan could call him a "good man" and a "good friend" is just ridiculous. Is he an idiot? Sure, Padme was totally delusional, and she should Anakin was a "good person" even though she knew he was a mass murderer (of children, no less!)... but Obi-Wan? It's really out of character to say that, unless we just say he lied about this too.

Don't you have siblings/close friends you bicker with all the time? It doesn't mean you love them any less.

Obi was clearly very sad to see Anakin go down like that. I don't think he'd call him an ungrateful brat 20 years later.

But again, this is one of those "the movies tell us nothing, so we just guess that maybe this happened off camera"

Please tell me what is wrong with this? Movies by nature are a limited medium, they have to leave spaces in the interest of time constraints. Would you want to watch a 9 hour film that covered every single angle, contingency, and tangent exhaustively?



He only survived it because Vader intervened. Plus, Mace was thrown out a window remember? We never see him die from the lightning. Luke doesn't even try to block it (granted, he does block it momentarily in the novel, but in the movie, we get nothing).
Or perhaps Mace was doing the same thing? Or maybe the Emperor had it on low power because he just wanted to torture Luke for awhile before he killed him and Vader got the brunt end of the "lethal level" lightning? How much does Vader survive? Not much more than Mace, if that...

Evidence in the film says otherwise, why was Palpatine so angry Luke didn't die when he said he would?

Vader's suit is mechanical, the lightning clearly destroyed its systems. Ironically, had he been more organic I doubt he would've died. The suit's shutdown was what killed him, not the lightning directly.

Then they're both complete and utter morons.

Why would these guys suddenly decide to agree to kill each other?

It's just stupid to say that the Sith periodically and openly scheme against each other, when there are only two of them and they are supposedly trying to survive to avenge themselves on the 10,000 Jedi Knights...

"Always two there are. No more. No less". -TPM
No EU stuff need apply.

It's more believable to assume...

Ah, ah. More believable in your opinion. This isn't a plot hole, you just don't like it.

So how does Anakin age even faster inside that suit living on Coruscant or wherever?

Put his hair back on, give him some time in the sun, he wouldn't look so bad. The scars on his face and head were from the lava. Also, using the dark side for over 20 years would have that kind of effect on you, look at the Emperor for evidence of that.

Wouldn't you at least realize that one of those Jedi guys is standing a few feet from you and can do some crazy sh!t to you? It's not like he's going to throw Vader outside, and aim some turbolasers at him if he tries any crap! Even if Vader's powers are crap (Motti has no reason to doubt them since he'd have been old enough to remember when the Jedi were front page news), he knows the guy has a lightsaber and could cut him a new one, right?

And even if he was an idiot and didn't know what a lightsaber was, at least he can see that the guy is like six foot seven and in great shape, and could probably kick his ass easily, right?

It just doesn't make sense for him to mouth off like that AS IF, he thinks the Force is all fake, when he should know better. In the original plotline before the prequels, we could simply surmise that the Jedi in the Republic were before his time and so he honestly didn't know what they were capable of.

Well, Tarkin saved him from death, so I get the sense he felt safe in that room full of officers, even with Vader present. Maybe he came from a backwater planet with little knowledge of the Force? Maybe he was just stupid (humans are humans, after all )

I think if nothing else this is another scene that suggests maybe Episode III and IV were supposed to be separated by more than just 20 years.

Who says that knowing Luke is a prerequisite for appearing as a Jedi spirit? Qui Gon didn't know Luke (though he could have watched over him as a child, after all, he was supposedly "training" Obi-Wan and Yoda, right?) but he knew Obi-Wan and Yoda. And we KNOW he was watching over Anakin, since he freaked out when Anakin was killing the Sandpeople, so loud that Yoda heard him (see AOTC).

Why not come hang out with them? And aside from Yoda and Obi-Wan (and Anakin, inexplicably), he's the only character in Jedi history (apparently) to discover the secret of immortality (not to mention the first). He ought to appear.
Nobody watching the 2004 OT is going to recognize Hayden Christiansen's face in there, but somehow he's there, so throwing in Liam Neeson won't hurt anything worse than it already is!

All three of the spirits were people close to Luke, involved in the story. Qui-Gon was not part of the OT, he died a long time ago. It wouldn't have been relevant to include him in a finale at the end of the OT.

So he just automatically has secret knowledge that other people have to be "trained" to know?

Okay, great, that explains everything.

Can he also fly? After all, he's the chosen one!

Does Luke also know how to become a spirit? After all, he's the chosen one's son! Or does he need to be "trained" first?

Palpatine's midichlorians must be pretty high, can he turn into a spirit?

His mother just gave birth to him one day, remember? He came out of the Force, practically. Is it so hard to believe he could re-enter it upon his death? I don't think so.

If you don't accept that as canonical, here's another explanation: Lucas needed a way to prove Anakin really had returned to the Light. Would you have preferred he had Vader come back as a zombie and mumble apologies?

Except the Jedi aren't allowed to marry, much less have children, and Padme's pregnancy was a complete surprise (read: accident) to Anakin. So when did he have time to express to Obi-Wan that if he had a son (?) he would want to give his lightsaber to him? (what proof would he have that his son would even have force potential?)

Well, Anakin did marry. He liked to make his own rules.

I think this is another loose end from Episodes III and IV. Or it could just be Obi Wan embellishing again. (he has been known to do that.)

Slightly off topic, but I've wondered for some time how they could have an "accidental" pregnancy. Doesn't the Star Wars galaxy have contraceptives?

I can only presume now that Obi-Wan was lying again...

Always a good assumption. He was pretty crafty for a Jedi. ^^

That makes no sense. He doesn't call him "Darth" at any other time, and nobody refers to any of the other Sith in that manner. Why not just call him some random insult? The way he uses it is as if "Darth" is his first name (which it was, until 1999 when it suddenly became a title for all Sith Lords).

Well, if that's the case, then this is a small disconnect, but there are other interpretations.

Calling Vader "Darth" makes perfect sense, since as I said, the two are no longer friends, and Vader is now lost to Obi-Wan. Formality towards one you were once close to is an insult of its own accord.

You clearly don't like this scene, but it does not constitute a plot hole. At best its viewed in a slightly different light now that "Darth" is not a first name.


Yoda "lost" to Palpatine...


He didn't lose to Palpatine alone, the two were evenly matched. Yoda had to make his escape because Palpatine had troops coming, Yoda didn't.

, so Yoda is but a learner?

You're taking this too literally. Losing a fight doesn't automatically make you a learner. Vader said this to emphasize that he lost despite being the more powerful of the two. It was simple rhetoric, not a definition of the state of losing.

This is silly.

I agree. You seem to think words have specific meanings that do not change and are interpreted the same way by every single person. I hate to break it to you, but this is not true.

He isn't referred to as "Ben" at all in the Prequel trilogy. So for all we know, he didn't start going by "Ben" until Luke was a child, several years later. Why say "before" when you really mean "after"?

I'll concede Sir Alec's line makes less sense now that we've seen the PT. Episode III portrayed the birth of Luke and Leia under different circumstances than I had imagined.

Except you forget that it's not as if Lucas had to scratch his head remembering what happened twenty years ago. All he has to do is pop in the tapes and sit down with a pad and jot down some notes (or, if he's too lazy, remember that he's a rich millionaire and pay an intern or two to do it for him, while he takes naps and sips lemonade in his hammock or something). As he's writing the prequels, refer to this pad to make sure he doesn't screw up basic points like that. Simple!

The reason prequels are done is to make money off the fans and nostalgia of the original work by telling you the backstory of the earlier work. People still don't understand why Star Wars fans nitpick over the differences between the two trilogies or had expectations that weren't met?

C'mon! If Lucas didn't want to face such possible criticisms, he shouldn't have made prequels, but sequels or just some other unrelated sci fi series or a new set of stories in the same universe.
Like what?

You're asking me why Lucas did what he did. I don't know, I'm not him and I don't speak for him. Post this question on theforce.net if you want a real answer.

All the things I mentioned were valid. At best you can quibble with one or two of them, but the fact is that there's major contradictions, plot holes, and incongruities between the trilogies, and frankly a lot of disappointing revelations, resolutions and explanations.

No, most of the things you mentioned were personal nitpicks of yours that you want an onscreen explanation for. Check this article on plot holes, it will explain to you what they are. Notice in there it never says "If I hate it, its a plot hole!!1111oneone"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole

How bad does it have to be before you fanboys will allow people to talk about them?

There's that word again. I never told you to shut up, I told you most of your "plot holes" are not plot holes.


Personally, I would've been more interested in seeing episodes 7, 8, and 9. I hope one of G.L.'s children makes them one day.

[KurganX]

The quotation tags are easy to do but I won't explain them here. You can use the panel thingy pretty easily in the post itself. Or click on "BB Code Help" to the left and it explains it.

It makes replying to a person's statements in part much easier to follow, but seems to goof up on long posts. Other times they simply don't work at all which goofs up my posts since I'm used to replying in this manner to folks.

This time I'll just address you in a series of posts as I get the time/desire to do so. ;)


That's a lot of words for such a simple thing. I don't recall hearing a quote as to how many stormtroopers there were in the galaxy. And the officers and commandos were clearly not clones so there was some verifiable conscription going on there. I don't think this is such a huge point of contention.


1.2 million "units" in AOTC. The EU interprets "unit = 1 soldier." The Prequels show us clones being used as the entire force of a gunnery crew, the entire contingent in a tank, or making up infantry battalians and so forth (I'm probably using the group names incorrectly, but I'm not a military guy). Point is, there should be a TON of clones to fight a full scale galactic war against billions (minimum) of droids. We see droids being constructed in a matter of minutes in AOTC. AOTC also establishes that Kamino is making the army and a batch takes 10 years to grow. Thus we can extrapolate for the later movies.

Suddenly there are many more times the number of clones than before. Saying they are suddenly a high percentage normal guys in the OT is fine, but why make them clones in the first place? If they can magically have enough clones in the PT era, why change that in the OT era?

So first of all the huge growth in clones in such a short time doesn't make sense and second the need to switch over to conscripts/recruits doesn't make sense either. If they never introduced the clone thing in the first place, it would have been perfectly simple and understandable.

Must you be so pedantic? "Real mother" means different things to different people; it does not refer to one's biological mother in and of itself; some people consider their "real" parent to be the one who raised them. It's a matter of your POINT OF VIEW. smile.gif

"Real Mother" means biological mother. That's clearly what Leia meant and that's what people mean in the real world when they say that. I grew up in the 80's (I was born in '78). The kids I knew that were adopted talked about their "real dad" or "real mom" when they were talking about their biological/birth parent, and used other terms to qualify their non-biological parents... "step-dad" "foster parents" etc.

There's no getting around this one, it's clear that both Luke and Leia know that Leia is adopted in ROTJ, before any brother-sister statements are made... no force revelations required! This point of view crap is just an excuse. Remember, that's what Obi-Wan said to justify his LYING to Luke (he should have just said "you had a mission to accomplish and I thought it would be too painful to tell you the whole story").

Even if you were right (which you aren't, sorry), by saying that Leia had a "real mother" (implying she had at least two mothers) and Leia not contradicting it, ROTJ clearly establishes that Leia knew she was adopted and this was no surprise to her. But there's really no way that Leia could think Luke was talking about Mrs. Organa in that scene.


Perhaps you're more a fan than I am if you notice details such as this. Is it even the same ship, confirmed by dialogue in the film? The color changed, sure, but again, war is more important than regular paint jobs.

ChefElf noticed and he spelled it out on his "reasons to hate episode iii" you should read it, it's quite funny (but true). ;)

In the theater, I didn't have time to sit there and study it compared to the original, but with the DVDs out, it's pretty easy to do so. I just noticed that it seemed a little fatter and had blue markings. When you compare them they look very different, which makes you wonder why they didn't try harder to make it look the same! It's confirmed as the same ship in the C-canon materials (and iirc, the audio commentary on the DVD) but no, not in in-movie dialog. But it's far more than the paint job! And why change it at all in the first place?

They were looking for the plans to the thing coming to kill them, not Anakin's favorite food as a child. Why would they be looking for information like that?

Let's say...

Rebel dude: Yes, what is it?

Tech: Sir, after the battle, I was cleaning up the computer's memory banks and I noticed something... this droid belonged to Anakin Skywalker, the hero of the Old Republic! That young pilot who just blew up the Death Star, didn't he say that was his father? Somebody ought to get the kid in here, he might want to see this...

Or something like that.

You didn't notice Threepio's condescending attitude towards R2? I think it's perfectly feasible that R2 said some things referring to old times that Threepio just dismissed as dribble. Droids don't have feelings or egos so why would R2 try to talk about those times?

Okay, so Threepio has an ego and is mistrustful. Why would you program such personality traits into a droid in the first place? Remember, this is a guy who has recently had his mind wiped, so it must be part of his basic personality... right? And Threepio could check on these things. R2 could prove to him that he had the memories in his databanks anytime to Threepio. And since Threepio has emotions and desires, then R2 would as well (how anyone could watch the movies and insist that droids have no feelings is beyond me!).

Finally, if you must have movie evidence: R2 got really fried by Vader's stray laser blast at the end of ANH. I get the feeling that may have messed with his memory banks.

That's a great idea, but that still doesn't explain why nobody even tries to check out R2D2's memory or ask him any questions (despite him looking and acting the same as he did 20 years ago when all this crap went down in the Republic and he was familiar with many of the major players) before then. Plus, once again, they had direct access to his memory banks when they were getting the death star plans. "Hmm, some data in here about Darth Vader's childhood, oh well, probably not of any interest, I'll just hit the 'delete' key" ???



Who knows, maybe they had to mind wipe him to fix some of his basic functions? I don't think everything needs to be outlined clearly and concisely in the film to explain occurrences like this. If you prefer not to interpret your films a little, perhaps you should stick to something safer, such as MTV? I understand it runs some exciting reality shows that require zero intellectual interaction to fully enjoy.

Clearly Lucas didn't plan ahead, and that's why fanboys have to come up with excuses later. Well "maybe this or that happened offscreen, maybe..."

Far be it from me to expect Lucas to write a coherent story that isn't full of more holes than swiss cheese! I'm definitely too demanding of writers. Lucas has better things to do with his time, like swim in his money bin, I suppose... ;)

PS: I hate "reality tv" (and the vast majority of it is anything but "reality").

Addressed poorly, I might add. Not liking the way something was done does not constitute it being a "plot hole". Podracing occurs at speeds of hundreds of kph, you really think any nine year old can do that?

Piloting a starship and drive a racing hover car are not the same thing. Not even close. Many pointed out how hard it was for them to believe that Luke could fly a "skyhopper" (apparently, a terrestrial aircraft) and this would be enough to make him proficient with an X-wing starfighter in space. It's even worse when you go from a 9 year old flying a pod to flying a Naboo starfighter and this somehow earns him the praiseful titles of "Greatest starpilot in the galaxy" and "already a great pilot when I first knew him" from Obi-Wan.

If in real life there was a child prodigy who was a soap box derby champion, would you really not be shocked if he was able to fly an F-16 with no training? Driving a car does not make you a "pilot." Yes, I realize that TPM has the little Anakin say "I'm a pilot you know... all my life" but that's pretty weak.

He was clearly a skilled pilot at that age, and got even better as he grew older. He was not claimed to be the "greatest pilot in the galaxy" at age nine, just better than what would be expected of a nine year old.


Obi-Wan says he was the greatest star pilot in the galaxy and later says that when he first knew Anakin, he was already a great pilot.

Instead, it seems Anakin was a driver, and became an accidental pilot, and later continued to be a good pilot but we never really see anything so amazing to live up to his reputation as the "greatest... in the galaxy."




Obi-Wan was pretty manipulative in trying to get Luke to kill Vader. I wouldn't put it past him.

But see, it's bad writing to use so much of Obi-Wan's screentime as exposition and then later set up that basically everything he said was utter BS (and then waste MORE screentime with him making excuses that he didn't really lie).

The worst thing about the "certain point of view" bullcrap is that now fanboys use it to justify every mistake Lucas made and bash people who point them out. It's so weak and lame, I'm just sick of it.

Because Yoda knows he can't match both the Emperor and Palpatine.

Nonsense, he was evenly matched with Palpatine as we clearly saw in the movie he just gave up when he lost his cape (and because Lucas wanted them to fight but couldn't kill off either character since he wrote the stories out of order and they both live). Yoda took on Dooku single handed and Dooku had to distract him to get away. If Sith Lords can take on two Jedi at once, why can't Yoda take on two Sith? But that's not even the issue, because he and Obi-Wan could gang up on either Sith. Their plan to split up was silly (why is it that in the movies the main part of every "Great plan" is to split up and it almost never works?).

He also knows that Imperial forces would kill him on sight instead of merely capturing him.

The stormtroopers clearly pose little threat to the little green dude as he proves twice earlier. Didn't you see him slaughtering that squad of supposedly elite soldiers without breaking a sweat? He made it look effortless! None of the Order 66 things were meant as "capture" but "kill" and they failed to kill Yoda. He can clearly handle himself, so calling in some Stormtroopers isn't going to be a real handicap in the fight. And did you see the way he handled those Royal guards? It was played for laughs how inept they were and how powerful he was.

This post has been edited by KurganX: 25 August 2007 - 01:56 AM

[KurganX]

The Emperor and Vader want Luke alive to attempt to turn him, they know Yoda is not turnable so they would not bother.

How do they know that? Dooku was turn-able. Dooku tried to get Obi-Wan to join him. How do you know? Plus, the original plan was to kill Luke (the Emperor's idea) not save him.

My point is that Yoda can handle himself so it's silly for him to run. It's also silly for the Jedi to split up and go into exile without training the twins. The real reason of course is that Lucas made it up as he went along and didn't have the imagination or desire to make it flow together better.


As Vader's son, Luke has all the power Vader has, with the potential to become more since Vader's injuries on Mustafar (this isn't EU speculation, it was confirmed by Lucas.)

But why? And do Palpatine and Yoda know this? How would they? They never check Luke's midichlorian count (and midichlorians didn't exist when the OT was created).


I think the intention was for Luke to go to the Emperor and Vader, pretend to be receptive to the idea of turning, defeat Vader in single combat, and then kill the Emperor after pretending to have replaced Vader at his side.

Whose intention? Obi-Wan and Yoda seem to have intended for Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor by any means necessary. That's why Obi-Wan crafted the lie that Vader killed Luke's father to get him on a revenge kick. Luke came up with the idea that Vader had good still in him and could be turned back to the good side, and he didn't want to kill his own father. He tries to get Vader to come with him and he seems very disappointed when Vader resists. So coming to the Emperor was not Luke's plan at all, it just happened. After that he seems resigned to a martyr's fate. The only reason he starts fighting is because the Emperor pisses him off so much, and he realizes that it's not just his life at stake but everyone in the Rebellion's. It's much easier for a decent person to sacrifice one's self than your loved ones that didn't have a choice. Notice how much he gets upset when Vader threaten's Leia?

Luke, like Lucas is making things up as he goes along, there was no long term plan in advance.


I believe Luke was powerful enough to succeed in this approach. Taking both the Emperor and Vader at the same time probably would've failed, Luke did not receive as much training as he should have. This is why they did not want to tell Luke Vader was his father, because it would make him more reluctant to strike Vader down. But he found an alternative approach that worked well enough.


Not necessarily. Luke seems to have loved his father because he had a false sense of history about him. That false history was replaced by an even more golden false history. Luke had so much invested in the IDEA of his father, that's why it was such a shock that his hated enemy was actually his father and he refused to believe it at first.

Had Luke been brought up with the idea that his father was an evil dude that needed killing, he could have been trained for that patricidal mission much more easily. A lot of folks grow up without a parent ("oh dad? He was a dead-beat bastard") or with a bad impression of one. Despite our best ideals, the ties of blood are not immutable.


Oh, and as to why they hid Luke away instead of training him from birth: this was explained in the novelization. Yoda, through insight gained from the Force, said that the Jedi way was not the only lifestyle that promoted discipline.

The ROTS novelization? Oh great...

Seriously though, what good did it do to raise Luke on a moisture farm with his head full of nonsense about his dad and no knowledge of the Force? If it was so dangerous to train people later in life rather than from birth in the Jedi Temple under their strict codes, why would they suddenly take such a wild gamble with the Skywalker twins? This seems very strange. And why would Yoda basically dismiss himself from the thing and leave it all to Ben Kenobi to watch over Luke (sort of, since Owen and Beru actually raise him) and a non-Jedi family to raise Leia on a core world?

Their plan seems very half-assed and stupid to me... (but in reality there was no plan, since they, like Lucas, made it up as they went along).


The Old Order died because Yoda didn't let it change, training Luke the same way as the other thousands of Jedi before him would've kept him in the same old mold. Yoda wanted to "break the mold", so to speak.

Wait, so Yoda has dictatorial control over the Jedi order for his whole life? Interesting!

So again, why the stupid plan? "Oh things didn't work out as planned, so let's throw it all away and start from scratch in our most desperate hour, and let the cards fall as they may"...?

If he was really so serious about breaking the mold, why didn't he take a more active role? Or did he think that the way to reform the Jedi Order was to stop training Jedi until they fell unto his doorstep?

Then again, this is all assuming there was some grand reason why the Jedi failed, due to hubris or something. In reality it was because the Sith took over the government, and they sent only crappy or unstable Jedi to fight them (or the capable Jedi turned tail and ran when things got a little dicey).

So it's not that their training methods were flawed. And how about Anakin's fall to the Dark Side. It wasn't because the Jedi weren't allowed to marry. It wasn't because Obi-Wan wasn't nicer to Anakin. It wasn't because the Jedi didn't train well enough in saber combat. It was because Anakin was a deluded jerk and because Palpatine fed him a bunch of lies that he was all too willing to believe.


Why would he investigate Tatooine? He did not believe his son to be alive.

So why hide his children at all? Vader doesn't know they're alive. The trouble is that in ANH we had no reason to believe they were even his children (that wasn't made up until much later), and they weren't really in hiding. Then we're later meant to believe that he was in hiding, and now it sticks out.

It's stupid that Vader never visited his mother until she was about to die. It's also stupid that he never once thought to look on that planet for Jedi (and then find his son in the process). He wouldn't even go there even once for nostalgia? Luke was the one who said he was "never coming to this planet again" not Vader (and even Luke made at least one more trip back).


Tatooine was not an Imperial planet, it was still held by the Hutts. There was a small Imperial garrison there but nothing that Obi couldn't mind trick his way around.

Was there a garrison or were those just the troops sent down from the Star Destroyer(s) that captured the Tantive IV to retrieve the plans?

Of course, Anakin knows he can go to this plan, kill a bunch of people, and leave with no consequences. He knows people living there that are some relation to him. He knows his mother is buried there. Wouldn't a remote planet like that be a good place to hide? And because of that wouldn't it be one of the first places that they went to investigate for survivors of the Jedi purge?


One thing I do wonder is why Vader did not make more of an effort to hunt down and kill Obi-Wan. I suppose it's another one of those holes left over from the way Episode 3 was presented to us. I think Lucas originally intended there to be much more than 20 years between Episode 3 and 4.


Good point, because both Palpatine and Anakin would know absolutely (as of Episode III) that Obi-Wan was alive. They would also know he had something to do with rescuing Padme and taking the droids. Anakin's pregnant wife was last seen alive with Obi-Wan. And then the Sith just let that trail go cold without any effort? Very strange, and all too convenient, I agree (and too about the gap)!


I don't know, Chewie isn't human so expecting him to act like one isn't really reasonable. Perhaps Wookies don't have egos as large as humans? Maybe their long-term memory is bad?

Chewie has a huge ego! He thinks with his stomach, he gets mad when a droid starts to beat him at holochess. He acts pretty darned human to me...

Besides, in Star Wars all the aliens, despite their physical differences act very much like humans (as do the droids) so it's really no big deal here. It's of course because Lucas didn't make any connections between Yoda and Chewie back then (Yoda as a character didn't even exist in '77). And with a greater gap between trilogies (the "200 year old chewie" thing was made up later) it would have been believable that Chewie, like Han, wasn't old enough to remember that the Jedi were once a big deal in the galaxy and not just some old legends that might be exaggerated.


To be honest, it was cool seeing Vader join the Emperor and Tarkin on the bridge of that early Star Destroyer. But seeing the death star frame outside the viewport made me gaffe. 20 years to build it the first time, a fraction of that the second time? I don't think so wink.gif

Clearly Lucas wanted to create a clear and concise transition between the old and the new. Even if it wasn't precisely faithful to canon.


Right, which is why it felt so forced. He went for the "cool visual" rather than the logical thing. Yet, he didn't do that with Vader being burned by the lava. It would have been much cooler to see him up to his waist in lava, crawling his way out like in the original story. So he opts for the "more realistic" lying on the ground NEAR some lava and finally burning from the heat (though I guess we're still forced to assume the force protected them from the heat and gasses up to this point).

The whole fast and loose way that Lucas plays with canon is fine, but then it pisses me off when you get fanboys acting like there's something wrong with you if you notice problems with it, or if you dare to question whether Lucas did it perfectly or not.


Don't you have siblings/close friends you bicker with all the time? It doesn't mean you love them any less.

True, but we just never get the sense that these are two guys that are really friends. Their one "nice scene" could just as easily be the exception. On the contrary, Qui Gon and Obi-Wan seem to have some genuinely warm feelings towards one another and a kind of father-son relationship. Anakin and Obi-Wan are like co-workers that can barely stand each other. So it's one thing to say "Yeah I knew him once, troubled guy" and "he was a good friend (grins nostalgically)"
re movie "episodes."



Obi was clearly very sad to see Anakin go down like that. I don't think he'd call him an ungrateful brat 20 years later.

He does profess his love for him. The trouble is, it rings hollow because we don't see this relationship at all. Anakin seems like an ungrateful brat. Maybe Obi-Wan always liked him but never showed it and Anakin never knew (Anakin does complain about him, blaming him for his own problems, claiming he's jealous and holding him back, etc). So while Anakin professes his hate, Obi-Wan professes his love. It's a sad scene, but all we can do now is say "well, you guys should have brought up these issues before now I think..."

Obi-Wan should have had the maturity and honesty to say that what he felt for Anakin was not shared. The guy was a huge jerk, insane, and ungrateful. Obi-Wan liked him, and didn't know about that side of him until it was too late. It makes Kenobi seem delusional, like a battered wife talking about how great her abusive husband is/was.


Please tell me what is wrong with this? Movies by nature are a limited medium, they have to leave spaces in the interest of time constraints. Would you want to watch a 9 hour film that covered every single angle, contingency, and tangent exhaustively?


It's bad storytelling. If you create a contradiction and fail to explain it, the audience is forced to make something up or create a lapse in suspension of disbelief. That's laziness on the part of the storyteller.

If Paul Bunyan is in California one day and suddenly he's in Maine the next, that's stupid and the kids will balk. But if you explained earlier how Paul Bunyan is a giant who can stride over mountains with ease, then the kids can easily imagine that he just took a stroll. But if you don't even explain that and they have to make up a reason, you're a bad storyteller.

"Certain point of view" and "it's the force" are far too often having to be drug out to explain why Lucas couldn't keep his own story straight. It's not as if he had to remember a lot of things, he has teams of professionals working for him. He can watch his own movies anytime or pay somebody else to and take notes for a writer's bible.

I'm not asking him to cover every detail and contingency, but he could have easily avoided probably 90% of the mistakes he made in the PT simply by doing the writer's bible thing or planning it out in advance (and believe me, it's possible to do that... TV shows have planned entire seasons in advance, so it's not like he couldn't have planned three movies ahead of time).


Evidence in the film says otherwise, why was Palpatine so angry Luke didn't die when he said he would?

Please explain? I don't think Palpatine had time to think about that, since he was getting thrown into a pit by Vader at the time...


Vader's suit is mechanical, the lightning clearly destroyed its systems. Ironically, had he been more organic I doubt he would've died. The suit's shutdown was what killed him, not the lightning directly.


Was it? Vader said "nothing can stop that now" (referring to his impending death).

It's true that Curtis Saxton has a nice page speculating about Vader's death, but we really don't know the properties of Force lightning well enough to say that it would have destroyed the suit easier than killing his fleshy body. We've never actually seen anyone else die from force lightning.


"Always two there are. No more. No less". -TPM
No EU stuff need apply.

But there's nothing saying "oh btw, these two guys constantly try to murder one another, and take on apprentices just so they can kill them off or double-cross each other... you know, because all this backstabbing and stuff is a great way to stay alive in secret so that you can avenge yourself on the Jedi centuries in the future..."

And it's even stupider because the Sith are in power, there's no reason to scheme against each other and have this stupid "rule of two" nonsense (that wasn't made up until TPM anyway).

My point about the EU is that the EU first said that there was only one Sith at a time (as the ANH novel first established) but that there were dozens or even hundreds of "dark jedi." Vader and Palpatine both had various assistants and students who had the Dark Side of the Force, lightsabers or both in the EU. The "history of the sith" was established as some red aliens who were conquered by Dark Jedi 5,000 years before the movies but that were extinct now except for Darth Vader and some wandering evil spirits that were super powerful.

Then the PT came along and gave us the rule of two, and then the EU picked this up and tried to claim that the Sith are CONSTANTLY trying to kill each other, and that what we see in the movies is TYPICAL and has been happening throughout their entire 2,000 year history! That's really stupid.


Ah, ah. More believable in your opinion. This isn't a plot hole, you just don't like it.


I don't like it because it's not very believable. I would like things better if they were more believable and consistent. Why was that so hard for Lucas to do?


Put his hair back on, give him some time in the sun, he wouldn't look so bad. The scars on his face and head were from the lava. Also, using the dark side for over 20 years would have that kind of effect on you, look at the Emperor for evidence of that.


He'd still look like a man in his 70's, instead of a man in his 40's as the Prequels would have us believe. Clearly Lucas did not intend it this way all along, or else he'd have made Anakin a younger man in the OT, or he'd have had him join the Jedi as already a mature adult (as the original backstory strongly implied).

Now we're faced with an anomaly... a really old Vader. We can't even use the old EU explanation that "the dark side makes you look older" because that was for Palpatine and clearly that explanation is contradicted by the PT.


Well, Tarkin saved him from death, so I get the sense he felt safe in that room full of officers, even with Vader present. Maybe he came from a backwater planet with little knowledge of the Force? Maybe he was just stupid (humans are humans, after all )


It's not that he knew Vader was a dark wizard super villain and he was just hoping that the other guys would save him in the nick of time if he tried anything... no, we're given the distinct impression that Motti thinks Vader is FULL OF CRAP, and that the Force is just a bunch of simple tricks and nonsense, just like Han Solo thought. Vader even comments on his "lack of faith." Clearly Motti is a skeptic until he starts getting choked.

Maybe he was just an idiot, but then you wonder why they got such idiots to be in their government? Don't answer that.

Seriously though, if the PT chronology is to be believed, Motti SHOULD remember the Jedi in their heyday and the threat of the Sith. He should know at least what they are capable of, yet he acts like it's just some old legend of some con artists.


I think if nothing else this is another scene that suggests maybe Episode III and IV were supposed to be separated by more than just 20 years.

Agreed! It makes far more sense if we view it in that light.


All three of the spirits were people close to Luke, involved in the story. Qui-Gon was not part of the OT, he died a long time ago. It wouldn't have been relevant to include him in a finale at the end of the OT.

So what? Why would it make any difference? It is relevant now because Lucas went out of his way to establish that not only did Qui Gon come back as a spirit, but he STARTED THE WHOLE 'coming back as a spirit' thing! So Lucas himself raised the question and refused to answer it.

We should see Qui Gon at the end. There's no reason not to and some reason to do so. The real life reason is that Liam Neeson washed his hands of Star Wars and refused to cooperate with Lucas on it anymore. Lucas could just defy him I suppose and paste his image in anyway, but I don't know if he wants to risk pissing off a famous actor like that just for another continuity fix (Lucas doesn't seem big on continuity fixes, he just likes to tinker with his movies to make them "look different" every so often).


His mother just gave birth to him one day, remember? He came out of the Force, practically. Is it so hard to believe he could re-enter it upon his death? I don't think so.


But that doesn't mean he's a god, either. We know he has many limitations. Why should he suddenly be able to become one with the force at will and return as a spirit, when somebody as powerful as Yoda needs special training? Lucas really dropped the ball on this one.. he didn't think it through. So we've got a half-assed explanation at the last minute that really fixes nothing.


If you don't accept that as canonical, here's another explanation: Lucas needed a way to prove Anakin really had returned to the Light. Would you have preferred he had Vader come back as a zombie and mumble apologies?


He could have had the spirits of Yoda and/or Obi-Wan say something to Luke to the effect that he had done the right thing and Anakin's soul was at peace. That's really how it originally ended, iirc from the Annotated Screenplays.

There really wasn't any problem back in 1983, because we could easily assume that ALL Jedi who die come back as spirits. But the evil dark siders don't... so then the question was, what happens to an evil dark sider (Vader) who turns good in his last moments of life? Luke burns his body and hopes for the best, and he gets to come back. Yay! Movie over. The only other bad guy has his body explode in ghostly blue flames and smoke.

But then the Prequels come along and suddenly Sith and Jedi die just like everyone else. "Oh it'll be explained" he keeps telling us, and then finally we just get this lame "special training" crap from Qui Gon's disembodied voice in a deleted scene and something in the novel about "compassion" and such. It was very poorly thought out...


Well, Anakin did marry. He liked to make his own rules.

The point is, Obi-Wan had no way of knowing what Anakin would have wanted for his son, unless Padme told him before she died (no evidence that she did, when would she have had time?). Plus it would be an odd thing for Anakin to say since doing so would expose the fact that he had illegally started a family and wouldn't his son face problems getting into the Jedi Order if he was the product of a rule-breaking Jedi? Would they even let him use his father's saber? And so on and so forth.

In the original story, it would have made more sense because these celibacy rules and secret marriages didn't exist yet.


I think this is another loose end from Episodes III and IV. Or it could just be Obi Wan embellishing again. (he has been known to do that.)

Right, but if we have to explain everything as "they were lying or stupid" it's just really really lame.


Slightly off topic, but I've wondered for some time how they could have an "accidental" pregnancy. Doesn't the Star Wars galaxy have contraceptives?

Apparently not, or people don't use them or use them improperly (like in real life).
They also still have people die in childbirth, but from a mysterious "losing the will to live" that doesn't exist in our world. They also seem to lack the ability to transplant cloned limbs, even though they can clone entire armies of whole bodies... We know they can heal scars (Luke and the bacta) but apparently some people choose not to have it done (Anakin in Episode III, Jango in Episode II).


Well, if that's the case, then this is a small disconnect, but there are other interpretations.

But the most obvious interpretation suddenly being wrong because the prequels changed the story is just annoying.




Calling Vader "Darth" makes perfect sense, since as I said, the two are no longer friends, and Vader is now lost to Obi-Wan. Formality towards one you were once close to is an insult of its own accord.


Does Kenobi seem like the kind of person who resorts to such petty insults in battle though? Nobody else calls him "Darth" so it's really not formality either. They all call him "Lord Vader" or "My Lord" or just "Vader." Palpatine calls him "my friend." Obi-Wan calling him "Darth" would make sense because they did know each other. Now that it's a Sith title, it makes little sense.


You clearly don't like this scene, but it does not constitute a plot hole. At best its viewed in a slightly different light now that "Darth" is not a first name.


The scene is fine. It's just obvious to me as another disconnect between the PT and the OT. It's another bit of evidence that the "he had it planned out in all in advance" claimants are full of it.

The OT is much easier to get through and enjoy if whilst watching it, I pretend the PT never existed.


I agree. You seem to think words have specific meanings that do not change and are interpreted the same way by every single person. I hate to break it to you, but this is not true.


So what did Vader mean by what he said? That his training was incomplete, or that he was an inferior fighter to Obi-Wan (but now he's superior)?

I realize they're just trash talking, but many people (myself included) interpreted this as meaning that Vader was of lower Jedi rank (which constituted lower skill or experience) than Obi-Wan at the time of their parting. Instead, they were of equal rank (Anakin lacking the "rank" of "Master" was a mere political formality). And Vader didn't beat him anyway, Obi-Wan threw the fight.


Like what?

He could have done any number of things. "Star Wars" was never about the Skywalker family saga or the "Tragedy of Darth Vader" until Lucas decided to make it that way (or try to force it to be that way, the PT is really the only part of the saga that's about the rise/fall of Anakin and his "tragedy").

I said he could have created other science fiction movies that are SET in the Star Wars universe, but have nothing to do with the stories already laid out as in the OT. In other words he could have made a movie about the Hutts or the Wookiees, or the Ewoks, or set on a new planet we never saw before, or the stories of before the Republic, or after, etc. The Prequels were made to tell the backstory of the OT. If Lucas felt hampered by the previously established story and didn't want to try to work to fit it all together, he could have just told a completely different story.

So I don't buy the excuse that Lucas was "forced" to do it this way. If he had wanted to tell another story (which seems like that's what he did anyway) he could have done it differently. He need not have pretended he was going to tell us the backstory that he "planned all along" for the OT and then do something else with just a thin veneer of continuity.


You're asking me why Lucas did what he did. I don't know, I'm not him and I don't speak for him. Post this question on theforce.net if you want a real answer.

Hehe, at least you admit it! Far too many fanboys pretend that they know the real story and it's so obvious only fools disagree.


No, most of the things you mentioned were personal nitpicks of yours that you want an onscreen explanation for. Check this article on plot holes, it will explain to you what they are. Notice in there it never says "If I hate it, its a plot hole!!1111oneone"

How are they "personal nitpicks"? They're clearly disconnected from the original story and from the original movies. Just because if you try hard enough you can come up with a personal retcon to explain it or plug the hole with your imagination doesn't mean that there was no hole or problem in the first place. It's not a plot hole if I "hate it" and nowhere do I say that I hate the PT for not being the same. Yes, I do think that if the PT had tried harder to be in continuity with the OT it would have been better. However, its real failings are the uninspired performances, the over-reliance on CG, and the rather humdrum plot lines (that either recycle stuff we've already seen or come up with irrelevant wild goose chases that are there just to be cool not to advance the story). If he just wanted to make fun sci fi movies, that's one thing, but he was setting this up as a serious telling of the backstory to this beloved cinema trilogy, based on stuff he had planned out in advance.

And let's face it, wikipedia is not the end-all, be-all. I accept the prequels for what they are... an attempt to cash in on fan nostalgia that could have been a lot better if the creator cared more and didn't always insist on having his way about everything. Beyond that, they're fun popcorn fare that is enjoyable if you don't think too hard and don't attempt to tie it to the OT (which is silly because that was the whole reason for making them in the first place!)... they're eye candy, a tech demo for ILM and Lucas' creative wizards and subsidiary companies.

It's not a plot hole because I say, it's a plot hole because it creates questions it doesn't answer, or answers in a contradictory and confusing or incomplete manner. If I have to make something up or read an EU novel or comic book or play a video game for it to make sense, then Lucas didn't do his job as a filmmaker and storyteller (though he did a great job as a savvy product marketeer).


There's that word again. I never told you to shut up, I told you most of your "plot holes" are not plot holes.

Which is what SW fanboys do. They spend far too much time on apologetics for Lucas and his recent efforts, ignoring the facts that get in the way of that, apparently because their love of Lucas and everything he does overwhelms all their logic and reason. No offense!

Fanboys also often resort to claiming that pointing out plot holes is a sign of "hatred" of the franchise or of Lucas, that somehow this ought to be taboo. They also seem to act as if these plot holes couldn't be avoided, or that if the plot holes were admitted, that their own enjoyment of the franchise would diminish.

Your issues are your own, but I'm saying the plot holes are real, I'm not just saying it because I hate Lucas (I don't, though I do think he's done some questionable things, and I don't have to agree with him on anything, just because he made some movies I like) or hate Star Wars or am jealous or trying to say I'm better than other fans or any other excuse that fanboys will make to excuse the story problems or bad decisions of the series.


Personally, I would've been more interested in seeing episodes 7, 8, and 9. I hope one of G.L.'s children makes them one day.

I doubt they'll ever be made, but if they are, they need to learn from the mistakes of the PT and the Special Editions in order to be films that I'd be willing to spend my time and money on...

Of course SW fanboys would love them no matter what, but that goes without saying.

Frankly, I see a remake of the original Star Wars coming out before any future episodes.

[Toru-chan]

Pretty much what KurganX said... and a little bit more.

As Vader's son, Luke has all the power Vader has, with the potential to become more since Vader's injuries on Mustafar (this isn't EU speculation, it was confirmed by Lucas.)
But why? And do Palpatine and Yoda know this? How would they? They never check Luke's midichlorian count (and midichlorians didn't exist when the OT was created).

During the Dark Times (the Dark Times when Bond, I and KurganX were the only people left on this board :-) we discussed the "Son of Sons". This is an old idea thrown around in an early draft that all people that can use the force are the descendants of one man, that these became Jedi and the Sith were a splinter group, and there was a prophecy that a man would come along to bring them all together again: "The Son of Sons". Lo and behold, in the "Special" Edition of ROTJ at the end in the celebration someone calls out "He is the Son of Sons". I didn't see it, but someone here did check it after I posted and confirmed it. No explanation in the film was given.

SecretHistoryOfStarWars.com has the details, and BTW The nice thing about that is the guy that wrote it references *everything* he says. There is no "I heard somewhere that..."

I think the intention was for Luke to go to the Emperor and Vader, pretend to be receptive to the idea of turning, defeat Vader in single combat, and then kill the Emperor after pretending to have replaced Vader at his side.

SHOSW discusses this too. Recall that was a draft idea that was discussed and dropped. The story morphed a lot over the years. Began as a Spin-off of an old Akira Kurosawa film, borrowed elements of the Lensman series, etc.

I doubt they'll ever be made, but if they are, they need to learn from the mistakes of the PT and the Special Editions in order to be films that I'd be willing to spend my time and money on...

Hollywood being Hollywood and continually regurgitating old movies, one day someone will remake it. I guarantee it. George might have to check into the big Skywalker Ranch in the sky first, but eventually someone will get the rights and do it. Even if it's crap, it'll still make a mint. What Studio could say no? (Well, New Line Cinema maybe, but not everyone in Hollywood is *that* dumb! ;-)

This post has been edited by Toru-chan: 25 August 2007 - 07:10 AM

[Despondent]

(Lucas doesn't seem big on continuity fixes, he just likes to tinker with his movies to make them "look different" every so often).