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Contradictions, Plot holes between the Trilogies

#76 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 08:55 PM

I got a hole, not in plot, but in alleged source material. Lucas borrowwd heavily from sci-fi and serials he would have grown up with. Lucas briefly was happy to acknowledge this. Some time after Campbell wrote about him, Lucas made the claim that all of his work had been based on Mythology. Can anyone genuinely defend this? That is to say, what were his Classical sources? Keep in mind that his 20th-century sci-fi sources are easy to find and have been documented to death, so if you go down the road of fanboy apologism, you're gonna get some of your foot in your mouth.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#77 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 09:25 PM

I gotta say that I am BEYOND tired of the whole "Modern Mythology" line of bullshit that's been shovelled on us. I was willing to believe it as a thirteen-year-old but by this point it's so tiresome. You can make claims that anything is mythological by design or accident using the same arguments.

Sure, there are a lot of things in common with the classic hero story but that is true of just about anything.

Recently I saw a masturbatory special on Lucas and the mythological basis for Star Wars and it made me roll my eyes so far in the back of my head that I could see my own brain. And when I saw my brain it was rolling its eyes. I didn't even know my brain had eyes!

I was thinking of writing a review of the special . . . but then I lost inspiration.
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#78 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 11:00 PM

I also think it's strange that Lucas claims to be creating a modern myth, while simultaneously paying homage to the old television serials of his youth. I mean, pick one, George.

And hello, Chefelf.

Also... sorry, Bond and Rosenrot. It's nothing personal but most people on this forum have had the same arguments about the prequels so many times, no-one really feels like getting into it again. If you don't believe me, take a few days reading through the back-log of threads here. You'll probably see that we've covered half of these points more than a dozen times each.

However, I did get a laugh, Rosenrot, when you said that Anakin demonstrated that he was already a great pilot by accidentally destroying a Trade Federation ship.

Welcome to the forum all the same though, Rosenrot. Perhaps you could join in one of the more general discussions. Although, if you want to get down into gritty details, there may be a few newer members who might be happy to go into the nitpicking with you in the sub-forums for each of the individual movies. But for those of us who've been posting here a while, we just don't have it in us to go through all these arguments again.

Also, it's nice that you put some effort into your post. A few longer fleshed-out posts make better reading than lots of one line replies.
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#79 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 11:09 PM

Yeah. Like, did they name any actual connections? I ask because when I read ULYSSES, I could see how Joyce had used the story of Odysseus as a metaphor for the journey of Bloom's day, and by extension Bloom's life, and the history of Ireland, and of civilization in general. I mean, not without some help; I had an annotated copy with a map, and at one point even visited Dublin to see some of the places in the book. My point is it's there. But in STAR WARS? What do we have? Good guy meets adversity, later prevails? Didn't that happen in DIE HARD?

All this "hero's journey" business is for the birds; I've read a load of mythology and no, they DON'T all have some older hero pulled out of retirement to school the callow youth. However, that element IS present to an extent in THE SEVEN SAMURAI, which Lucas watched in film school. I promised not to go on about the obviouis sci-fi references, because I'm sure we're all tired of hearing them. I just want ONE person to seriously outline the specific mythological sources for the OT. And I mean specifics, because the sci-fi references can be as spot-on as they need to be. So something as vague as "then the guy falls in love" just won't do.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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Posted 21 August 2007 - 11:18 PM

I think the biggest problem with the prequels is bad dialog, bad acting on the part of the lead actor, overuse of special effects, too many scenes that look like video games, and Jar Jar Binks. I don't think its the plot holes. If you removed these items and kept the same plot, I think most people would be willing to overlook or explain away the plot holes.

However, there are two big plot problems with the entire Star Wars saga, which start with the Empire Strikes Back (though confirmed in Return of the Jedi). They could be ignored in the OT, but had to be addressed in the prequels, when describing the backstory, for the whole thing to be believable.

Both stem from the idea that Darth Vadar is Anakin Skywalker, and claimed by Vader and confirmed by Yoda. This of course drives the OT from the second half of ESB. And Lucas needed some sort of compelling scene to keep things going.

First, if Vadar is Anakin Skywalker, then he must to know that his brother is raising his son, under his own name, on his home planet. But he doesn't do anything, until two droids carrying plans to the Death Star escape to that planet, and stormtroopers wipe out his family. OK, so why doesn't he do anything? Why doesn't he react to the escape of the droids to Tatooine? Or maybe Tatooine isn't his home planet, after all. The prequels never address this, except to confirm that Tatooine is in fact Anakin Skywalker's home planet (I realize Obi Wan indicates this, vaguely, but do you really believe anything Obi Wan says about Vader's background?). If a writer who took the backstory seriously really tried to unravel this or find a solution to the mess, you would start filling in alot of information about where Vader comes from and what motivates him.

Second, Anakin Skywalker is a "good man". We know this because its worth redeeming him at the end of ROTJ (otherwise that movie makes no sense at all, neither do the last few scenes in ESB). But he chooses to serve the Emperor. In fact, so does much of the Galaxy. Is the Emperor really that evil? If so, what is his hold on Vader? This really gets to the heart of the prequels, and Lucas does answer the question. Unfortunately, the answer is really lame and scarcely believable. He does a little better on how the Emperor rallies the galaxy against the Jedi, but not much. He also takes too much time in answering this, it really should have been settled by the end of the Attack of the Clones.

Again, maybe if the non-plot portions of the prequels had been up to the standards of the first two Star Wars movies, people would ignored the fact that Lucas never addressed the first plot problem, and came up with a weak solution to the second. But the backstory really should be more carefully plotted than the original trilogy, there already is a good deal of plot out there, and anything extra really has to fit in with it.
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#81 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 11:30 PM

Anakin thought that his son had died with Padme.
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#82 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 02:05 AM

I never got in ROTJ how Vader plotted to murder the Emperor and ally with his son to bring back peace to the galaxy, and this was bad and Luke refused to go along with it, but then he did it anyway and it was good and Luke loved him for it and then he got to go to Jedi Heaven. That and all the silly jungle boogie ... I just didn't get that movie. I did enjoy the Han Solo rescue the first time, and liked the hover bikes, but was unsettled by the rest. By the second time around everything had paled and I had no interest in seeing it a third time. It was more than a decade before I bought the laserdiscs, and even then it was a long time before I got around to peeling the wrapping off that one.

That's not really a plot hole or a contradiction of course, just a difference in point of view. As for a contradiction, Yoda was talking to Ben about "another" while Luke was taking off from Dagobah, but in the sequel Luke apparently had heard it from inside his ascending fighter, through the vacuum seal of the cockpit and over the roar of the engines. In EMPIRE, it was clearly a private conversation, something he was NOT meant to hear. Before anyone says "The Force," how often can that be answer?

----

Anyway that's a small but annoying contradiction within the first trilogy. Most of the good contradictions between the two, I think, have already been covered. At least, I don't have any more right now.
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#83 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 02:31 AM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Aug 22 2007, 02:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's not really a plot hole or a contradiction of course, just a difference in point of view. As for a contradiction, Yoda was talking to Ben about "another" while Luke was taking off from Dagobah, but in the sequel Luke apparently had heard it from inside his ascending fighter, through the vacuum seal of the cockpit and over the roar of the engines. In EMPIRE, it was clearly a private conversation, something he was NOT meant to hear. Before anyone says "The Force," how often can that be answer?


He heard it in ROTJ, on Yoda's deathbed:

"The Force... is strong... in your family... pass on... what you have learned... there is... a-no-ther... Sky... walk... er..."

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#84 User is offline   Just your average movie goer Icon

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 08:00 AM

With the other, Yoda actually tells Luke "There is another Skywalker" just before he dies in 'Return of the Jedi' so you that's how Luke knew to ask Ben... er... Obi Wan about it.

(I just suddenly realised that Luke calling him 'Obi Wan' in 'Return of the Jedi' was out of character. He'd called him Ben the whole time prior to that as that was how he knew him. Ha ha! Another flaw with 'Return of the Jedi'!)

Actually, my chief complaint with the handling of "the other" was that nothing came out of it. Luke and Darth handled everything and Leia didn't even ask Luke for a bit of elementary Jedi training.

Maybe Ben could have told Luke "The other Yoda spoke of was your twin sister. But seriously though, we don't have time to train her up if we want to stop the Empire before this thing blows. So as far as you're concerned, you're it and there is no Plan B."

The other funny thing was that Luke wasn't even needed either. If he hadn't been there - then Vader and the Emperor would have blown up with the Death Star anyway.

As for how Vader doing exactly what he offered to do at the end of "The Empire Strikes Back" being a good thing, I suppose it was the spirit in which he did it. Now, I'm not saying it was the best way to end the trilogy because we all know "The Empire Strikes Back" promised us something far grander than what eventuated... however, I'd say that in "The Empire Strikes Back", Vader wanted to destroy the Emperor so he could take his place and dictate how he'd run the galaxy. Whereas in "Return of the Jedi", he killed the Emperor to save his son. The fact that it was necessary for him to kill the Emperor was kind of convenient but hey, "Return of the Jedi" is so burdened by problems already, what's a few more?

Anyway, Vader was a completely different character in that movie too. He seemed somewhat senile as if he had been lobotomized since the last film. He also lost his capacity for even basic social interaction. Perhaps you might remember the following exchanges.

Luke says "That was why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your emperor now."

Vader, not knowing how to respond properly, starts fidgeting with Luke's lightsabre and says after an awkward silence. "I see you have constructed a new lightsabre."

He does something similar when the Emperor's talking to Luke. The Emperor says "Oh no, my young apprentice. You will find it is you who are mistaken... about a great many things."

Vader, not knowing the proper moment to do so, presents Luke's lightsabre to the Emperor. "His lightsabre."

And the Emperor (actually to Ian McDiarmind's credit) pauses somewhat awkwardly before he takes it. Now, if only he said something like "Um... yes, thank you, Vader. Don't let the door hit you on the back of the head on the way out."

(Sorry. I can't take original credit for that joke. My brother made that one up.)

Honestly, you couldn't take Vader anywhere:

One of Vader's mates - "Yeah, I thought it was brilliant. I'm definitely going to get it when it comes out on DVD. What do you reckon, Vader?"

Vader - "Look. I made a new lightsabre."

However, Vader in "The Empire Strikes Back" was a guy who took charge, always knew what he wanted, and was prepared to do anything to get it.

Also, the lightsabre duel in the Emperor's throne room was a bit boring with both Luke and Vader clearly holding back, wasn't it? Well, at least until Vader makes Luke angry - but that part, fantastic though it is, lasts only a few seconds. I kind of missed Vader's little demonstration of the power of the dark side where he was using the force's telekinetic side to throw all those objects at Luke.

Regarding the whole idea of Vader not knowing where his son was, I suppose that makes sense in a way. Either he didn't care, didn't even consider the possibility that he'd be on Tatooine (and who says Owen had to be in the same place on Tatooine that he was when Anakin was last there) or perhaps with all the excitement of building the Empire, he wasn't interested. One thing is clear though. He got interested after encountering Luke in the Death Star trench.

One imagines when he got back to Coruscant, he put some serious thought into finding about this rebel who was so strong in the force. Perhaps, he also heard some intelligence information on the rebels where the name 'Skywalker' came up and thought "Hold the phone!"

Anyway, he's clearly looking for him by the time "The Empire Strikes Back" begins.

I've never had a problem with that. As for whether you can trust what Obi Wan says, I'd say he probably did the right thing. Imagine if you were Luke and you asked your old friend Ben "How did my father die?" and you got a reply like this -

"He didn't actually. The prick turned on all his friends. Bastard of a traitor, he actually joined up with the Emperor of all people and hunted the rest of us down like wamprats! I reckon he enjoyed it too, damn son of a bitch. Now, he's flying around the galaxy under his new name Darth Vader, carrying out the Emperor's dirty work. But I mean, I'd expect nothing less of the scum-bag now."

You'd be shocked and quite probably upset and traumatized.

I'd say Obi Wan was right to spare Luke from that type of mental anguish. Perhaps, Obi Wan and Yoda should have perpetuated their lie in "Return of the Jedi" to save Luke from more mental anguish - rather than telling him the truth.

"Master Yoda. Is Darth Vader my father?"

"Who told you that?"

"Well, he did."

"And you believe him? Geez, Luke. I mean, come on."

Perhaps that would have been the kinder thing to do.

However, having said that, I still really hate the 'certain point of view' line. There's no excuse for that.

"I thought it was best you didn't know." or "I didn't want to cause you pain." perhaps but NOT "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."
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#85 User is offline   jariten Icon

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 07:35 PM

QUOTE
I never got in ROTJ how Vader plotted to murder the Emperor and ally with his son to bring back peace to the galaxy, and this was bad and Luke refused to go along with it, but then he did it anyway


Aren't plotting to overthrow your boss and essentially just replace one tyrant with another, and killing your boss and yourself in the process to save someone you love totally different things though?
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#86 User is offline   civilian_number_two Icon

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 07:52 PM

Jar: No. I think the only thing that changed was that Vader stopped wanting the power for himself when he saw that Luke would be fine on his own. Either way he was tired of his role and wanted the Emperor out. Maybe he was also tired of life; hell, I would be. If you can't enjoy a few beers and the occasional blowjob, what's left? I don't think being tired of life and killing your boss because you figure your son would be better at the job should really eradicate a lifetime of murder. But then I never understood religion.

Bond: Really? Yoda said that? Shows how often I've seen that film. Concern retracted.

MG: A better thing would have been for none of those exchanges to occur, and for Luke to have to kill his father. A completely different narrative would have greatly improved the piece. Folks who want some kind of redemption could have allowed Vader to pull up his swrod at the last moment, a la Ben Kenobi (we could even replicate the shot), but that's as much as I'd have allowed.

Everyone else: Look at this.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=lCgrG35-3js
"I had a lot of different ideas. At one point, Luke, Leia and Ben were all going to be little people, and we did screen tests to see if we could do that." -George Lucas, in STAR WARS: the Annotated Screenplays (p197).
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#87 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 08:24 PM

QUOTE (Just your average movie goer @ Aug 22 2007, 08:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
He does something similar when the Emperor's talking to Luke. The Emperor says "Oh no, my young apprentice. You will find it is you who are mistaken... about a great many things."

Vader, not knowing the proper moment to do so, presents Luke's lightsabre to the Emperor. "His lightsabre."

And the Emperor (actually to Ian McDiarmind's credit) pauses somewhat awkwardly before he takes it. Now, if only he said something like "Um... yes, thank you, Vader. Don't let the door hit you on the back of the head on the way out."


Well, in light of the prequels, Vader's action here makes more sense. What if the Emperor had let slip that Luke's father had killed his mother? Don't want that happening. wink.gif
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#88 User is offline   Chefelf Icon

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 08:56 PM

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Aug 22 2007, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bond: Really? Yoda said that? Shows how often I've seen that film. Concern retracted.


It's while he's dying. It's very had to understand anything he's saying on his deathbed.

QUOTE (civilian_number_two @ Aug 22 2007, 08:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Everyone else: Look at this.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=lCgrG35-3js


Thank you for that. smile.gif
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#89 User is offline   barend Icon

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 09:18 PM

QUOTE (The Elite_elite @ Jul 10 2007, 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
9 - When did Anakin demonstrate that he was "already a great pilot" when Obi-Wan "first knew him"? (ROTJ vs. TPM)

The pod racing and the destroying of the Trade Federation battleship.


People should really get banned for saying that.

Karting and taking it off auto-pilot, going into a spin, and crashing into the droid controll ship with the cannons facing the right direction is not "best pilot in the galaxy" material.
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#90 User is offline   Madam Corvax Icon

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 09:44 PM

QUOTE (The Elite_elite @ Jul 10 2007, 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
9 - When did Anakin demonstrate that he was "already a great pilot" when Obi-Wan "first knew him"? (ROTJ vs. TPM)

The pod racing and the destroying of the Trade Federation battleship.


OK, in all fairness it could refer to the opening scene of ROTS when Anakin tries to shovel the "buzz droids" off the Ewan McGregor's ship with the wing of his fighter.
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