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Contradictions, Plot holes between the Trilogies

#61 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 06:13 PM

Maybe Boba disintegrated Mace on the way down. tongue.gif
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#62 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 07:58 PM

QUOTE (KurganX @ Jul 26 2007, 03:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree, the EU is crap, but if the models have a rear gun, why don't they ever use it, especially where it would make sense?

There's also no reason for the ships not to swoop around to attack the fighters. After all the guns stopped (and could be dodged anyway pretty easily, after all, only one fighter got hit by them and then Porkins got aced supposedly only because of a freak mechanical failure that made him fly predictably in a straight line for too long so he could be tracked) so it's not like they had to worry about being shot by turrets. I'd rather take my chances with dodgy turrets though than having Vader pick me and my men off one by one in the back with no defense!


I did a thread on this a while back. There were lots of things the Rebels could have done to stop that, like using wingmen as wingmen ;-) See "Trench Academy" http://www.chefelf.c...?showtopic=6309

Real-world fighters don't have rear-facing guns I guess (1) because you'd either need a second pilot to aim it (which would be pretty bloody hard to do manually) or , (2) these days you could automate it with a gun radar, though there's a weight trade off (imagine a Phalanx CWIZ strapped to the back of an F-16? http://en.wikipedia....ki/Phalanx_CIWS ) and if they're close enough to be shooting at you, they could have fired a missile by now and you'd be dead anyway.

Which shows the dangers of confusing real-world with imaginary-world. Lasers don't weaken much with range and are very powerful, so why even bother closing to such a close range. Why target them manually at all? Why not hang back and use a gunnery radar to aim it for you?

Lucas OT movies, while good films, require you don't think too much about them. If you do, the flaws and inconsistencies come out. This is what happened to the PT movies that Lucas build on them. Not the only reason the PT films suck by comparison, but it's one of them.

QUOTE (georgelucas4greedo @ Jul 26 2007, 04:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I thought the Bobba Fett thing was a major cop out as well. Lucas killed him and then realized how much money the guy could make him. Boba started out as a decent enough character until ROTJ. Why was he there, anyway? And then to add insult to injury, Lucas revives him in the form of his idiotic father. I dont think Lucas has a shred of integrity in his flabby body.


I really don't get the whole Boba Fett thing. Even as an impressionable Star Wars crazy teenager, living next to other impressionable Star Wars crazy teenagers, we both agreed Boba Fett was a wanker. He looks like a vacuum salesman. So why do fanboys think he's so cool. I don't know, but maybe for the same reason if Lucas took a dump, put it in a plastic blister case with a Star Wars logo they'd rush to buy that too: Lucasofanatics.
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#63 User is offline   KurganX Icon

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 09:51 PM

I guess I was an atypical Star Wars fan in the early days too, since I didn't hate the Ewoks (I treated them just like the jawas, just another race of aliens) and didn't love Boba Fett (he was just another of Jabba's thugs to me, since I barely ever saw Empire, my first watching of it being on VHS years later).

This post has been edited by KurganX: 29 July 2007 - 09:51 PM

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#64 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 11:11 PM

Fair enough. "No Way!" cried my best friend's wife as I played the '06 DVD (a gift) for my "nephew" (Godson) at his request, to see the Star Wars with Jabba (ROTJ). First time completely through for him on their second visit in the last week ("He's closing a chapter" said my best friend's wife to him, as Luke pulled Vader from the soon to be, doomed star).

Back to the point, it's all been changed.
In flux, and wrapped around a riddle. Cling to what you will. After that, it's a letdown.

Oh yes. "No way" was her response to the premise that the actor who played the unmasked Darth Vader alongside his Jedi pals; was portrayed by anyone else: much less, The smarmy Hayden Christianasen (in the best role of his life.)

This post has been edited by Despondent: 29 July 2007 - 11:14 PM

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#65 User is offline   Bond Icon

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 11:45 PM

You think you have the definitive opinion on Mr. Christensen, yet you cannot even spell his name correctly. rolleyes.gif
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#66 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 07:00 AM

QUOTE (Despondent @ Jul 30 2007, 02:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fair enough. "No Way!" cried my best friend's wife as I played the '06 DVD (a gift) for my "nephew" (Godson) at his request, to see the Star Wars with Jabba (ROTJ). First time completely through for him on their second visit in the last week ("He's closing a chapter" said my best friend's wife to him, as Luke pulled Vader from the soon to be, doomed star).

I'm impressed your friend has a wife who can sit through this garbage, and have the good sense to see it for what it is... garbage! :-) My wife thought TESB was pretty decent, slept through ROTJ and refused to watch anything else. My dreams of watching 'Ewok Adventure' were never fulfilled.

As God father, you are responsible for your God sons moral guidance. You better educate him on this. He may think Star Wars is a slapstick comedy. Does he realize it's meant to be serious?

QUOTE
Oh yes. "No way" was her response to the premise that the actor who played the unmasked Darth Vader alongside his Jedi pals; was portrayed by anyone else: much less, The smarmy Hayden Christianasen (in the best role of his life.)

He's pretty good in _Shattered Glass_. I'm not sure there is an actor alive that could believably deliver that 'Sand is scratchy not like you' line. Harrison Ford would just refuse to say it. Ewan McGregor would offer to do a nude scene instead. Frank Oz Yoda wouldn't either, but ILM CGI Yoda would!
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#67 User is offline   diligent_d Icon

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 11:04 AM

QUOTE
I'm not sure there is an actor alive that could believably deliver that 'Sand is scratchy not like you' line. Harrison Ford would just refuse to say it. Ewan McGregor would offer to do a nude scene instead. Frank Oz Yoda wouldn't either, but ILM CGI Yoda would!


Almost need a Shakespearean actor to deliver the clunker.
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Posted 30 July 2007 - 11:26 AM

"Forsooth! Sand be-eth scratchy, but not-eth like you." tongue.gif
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#69 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 06:15 PM

Sorry I didn't spell the actor's name correctly. Hadn't invested enough interest to care.

Yes, you're right- I should have done a better job. "Can I watch it, Uncle.." Spencer asked and I told him to ask his Mother. I have the (06, a gift) dvds and a new hi-def tv, so I sold out for the sake of convenience and clarity... ok, purists?

Nobody else ought to have a problem with it.

And no, the Mother wasn't watching the movie, nor did I account that she did. We were talking in the other room and I spoiled the Hayd ending. She's a drama teacher and was appalled that they would trash an actor's legacy like that. So when the scene of astonishment rolled, I was more than happy to see her bask in the luminescent dump which GL had taken.
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Posted 30 July 2007 - 06:52 PM

Well, if the Canadian actor fits... wink.gif
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#71 User is offline   Toru-chan Icon

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 07:04 PM

QUOTE (diligent_d @ Jul 31 2007, 02:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Almost need a Shakespearean actor to deliver the clunker.


Sean Bean? Patrick Stewart? Ian McKellen? {Insert Names Here} You know maybe they could.

Those Shakespearean actors are pretty good. Compare Bernard Hill (King Theoden) with Viggo (Aragorn's) battle rally in LOTR. Both are good actors, but Bernard Hill seriously kicks ass.

Heh Heh Despondent. You made yo mama watch ROTJ, and everyone groaned? Beautiful family togetherness. Should have a reality TV show where we watch people watching Star Wars movies and groaning through. A home handicam version of MST3K if you will.
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Posted 30 July 2007 - 07:13 PM

QUOTE (Toru-chan @ Jul 30 2007, 07:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A home handicam version of MST3K if you will.


Heh heh... devil.gif

(Luke puts the torch to Vader's body on the pyre.)

Me: Light the sky on fire...

laugh.gif
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#73 User is offline   rosenrot Icon

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 12:17 PM


3 - Size of the Clone Army. AOTC: States 1.2 million "units." By the OT, how can there be enough Stormtroopers to patrol the Galaxy if it takes 10 years to grow them and they age at 2x the normal rate?

20 years should be enough time to grow loads of clones, particularly since the Empire was rich enough to invest heavily in it. I'll concede the voice part though, that's a plot hole.

4 - How can Leia remember her real mother (ROTJ), if not only was she born AFTER her twin Luke (ROTS), but Padme died in childbirth?

I think she was referring to her foster mother. How would she know she was adopted? No one ever told her. At the time, she was not yet aware Luke was her brother. That revelation came about four minutes after Luke asked her this question.

6 - Design of the Tantive IV (name not stated in movie, but Captain Antilles's ship), how does it change so radically in 20 years? (ROTS vs. ANH)

I don't recall the interior changing very much, other than it being a lot brighter at the end of RoTS. I think fighting a galactic rebellion would probably leave you with little time to whitewash a ship's interior.

7 - Why doesn't R2D2 remember the past 20 years?
30 - Why don't Luke or Leia ever find out that R2D2 knows everything about their past?

He does, he just doesn't speak in English so we never know if he's talking about that time he saved Padme etc etc. Since Threepio had a mind wipe, he'd just dismiss it as "delusions of grandeur" and Luke and Leia would probably think he was malfunctioning if he told them they were related.

9 - When did Anakin demonstrate that he was "already a great pilot" when Obi-Wan "first knew him"? (ROTJ vs. TPM)

Podracing, accidentally destroying the Trade Federation controlship.

10 - When did Owen show any disagreement with Anakin, to the extent described by Obi-Wan? (ANH vs. AOTC/ROTS)

Never shown onscreen, but I think its reasonable he fabricated this stuff to keep Luke from following in his evil father's footsteps as any good foster parent would do. Admittedly a flimsy one though since this was not explained directly in the film.

11 - Why does Yoda say that Jedi never use the Force for attack, but only 'knowledge and defense', and why does he disparage war/warriors? (ESB vs. AOTC/ROTS)

Probably because it was a war that led to the destruction of the Jedi. A Jedi never seeks battle, remember? He just doesn't hide from it if it is necessary.

12 - Why was Luke "hidden" on Anakin's home planet, at the homestead of the family his mother married into and his last name not changed? (ROTS vs. ANH)

That's easy, Vader thought Padme died before she gave birth. Tatooine is on the arse end of the galaxy, and somehow I doubt Vader went home regularly for family reunions with the Lars.

13 - Why doesn't Chewie react to Han Solo's bad-mouthing of the Jedi and the Force? (ANH vs. ROTS)

At that point Chewie's over 200 years old, Han is not yet 30. Sometimes the old ones know when to hold their tongues and let the youth be content with their imagined superiority.

15 - Why did the first Death Star take twenty years to build, while the second, larger and more powerful station, was built in 1-3 years? (ROTS vs. ROTJ)

I wondered this myself. Maybe the second time around they really rushed their asses off to get the job done? Btw they had four years to do it, that's the space of time between ANH and RoTJ. Assuming they started immediately. The second time you do something it's faster, though going from 20 to 4 years is a tad dubious imo.

16 - When was it shown that Anakin was a "good man" and a "good friend" before he turned to the Dark Side? (ROTS vs. ANH/ROTJ)

In RoTS. Anakin was a full Jedi and Obi Wan's friend, and very much devoted to his secret wife. That's part of the tragedy, seeing how good Anakin was as opposed to what he would be by the film's end.

17 - Why did Obi-Wan refer to Yoda as "The Jedi Master who instructed me" when he was instructed by Qui Gon Jinn? (TPM vs. ESB)

Another semi-truth, as Obi-Wan was doubtless trained first by Yoda as a youngling and later by Qui-Gonn for a formal padawanship. Maybe it's correct "from a certain point of view"? tongue.gif

18 - Why does Yoda moan about Luke being "too old to begin the training" when Obi-Wan had no problem with it, and supposedly Yoda thought 9 year old Anakin was "too old"? (TPM vs. ANH/ESB)

Because most Jedi were trained from birth and I bet Yoda was afraid Luke would turn to the dark side like his father did and make things even worse. Remember when he warned Luke not to go to Cloud City lest he become "an agent of evil?"

19 - What happened to Jar Jar Binks?

Who cares?

20 - (Special Editions) Why does anyone on Tatooine care when the Empire falls?

Stormtroopers getting drunk in your bar all the time would piss you off too.

21 - Why does Obi-Wan wear his Jedi uniform "in hiding" on Tatooine? (ANH vs. TPM/AOTC/ROTS)

He didn't have anything else to wear? Again, Tatooine is a long way from the Core. Vader wouldn't have a reason to be travelling there and anyone else besides him and the Emperor wouldn't be able to resist the good 'ol mind trick. ("I'm not really here, I'm dead and thus a figment of your imagination!")

22 - What happened to all the battle droids?

Old technology, clones are superior, remember?

23 - Why isn't Luke able to stop the Emperor's lightning attack and why doesn't Yoda at least show him how to counter it? (ROTJ vs. AOTC/ROTS)

He survived it, didn't he? He took the lightning treatment a lot longer than Mace did. I sometimes wonder if he was resisting part of it through the Force, looking like he was getting rinsed on purpose to try to wake the good man in his father. Remember when the Emperor pronounced "And now, young Skywalker - you shall die." and then after a moment looked very pissed when Luke didn't then continued the barrage?

24 - If there are only always ever two Sith "no more, no less... a master and an apprentice" (TPM) why does Vader recommend that Luke could be turned into a "powerful ally" and the Emperor agrees he would be a "great asset"? (TPM vs. ESB)

Because each was planning on killing the other and taking Luke as apprentice:
Emperor - "Now, take your father's place at my side!"
Vader - "You can destroy the Emperor! ... Join me, and we can rule the galaxy as father and son!"

25 - Why do Obi-Wan, Anakin, Owen and Beru appear so old if only 18-20 years have past since we last saw them? (ANH/ROTJ vs. ROTS)

Tatooine life is very harsh? Another possible disconnect.

26 - Why doesn't Admiral Motti seem aware of the reality of the Force and the power of those who wield it? (PT vs. ANH)

Would you be afraid of an ancient religion when you're sitting on a planet-killing station the size of a small moon?

27 - What happened to the Imperial military in those two decades that they lost nearly all their hardware and technology? (ROTS vs. OT)

If anything, their technology advanced. The star destroyers were much shinier in the OT.

28 - Why doesn't Obi-Wan recognize the droids? (ANH vs. PT)
29 - Why doesn't Owen Lars recognize the droids? (ANH vs. AOTC)

There's a lot of droids in the galaxy. Why would they be the same ones? That's an awfully big coincidence! (And more than a little corny, if I may say.)

31 - Why doesn't Qui Gon Jinn appear as a spirit at the end of ROTJ? (see AOTC/ROTS)

Why would he? He didn't know Luke and barely knew Anakin.

32 - If one has to be "trained" to become a spirit after death, when did Anakin ever learn it? (ROTS vs. ROTJ)

He was the Chosen One, it stands to reason since he was conceived by the midichlorians he was born with the ability to become "One with the Force." Plausible at the very least, imo.

33 - When did Anakin express the desire for his son to have his lightsaber when he was "old enough" (and if the Jedi are trained from birth, does that mean as a toddler? but since the Jedi aren't allowed to have children... then what?)?

Most fathers want their sons to be like them. Though the way he said it, I think Obi-Wan was making shit up to get Luke to become a Jedi so he could kill Vader and the Emperor, which is what Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted him to do.

34 - How many Wars were there? Why does Yoda refer to it as "the Clone War" instead of the "Clone WarS" (plural)? (AOTC vs. ANH)

This is so semantical, I don't even remember it. Are you seriously presenting this as a plot hole?

35 - Why does Ben refer to Vader as "Darth" if that is a Sith title rather than a personal name? (see ANH)

Because he was emphasizing Vader was lost to him. Remember how quickly Obi-Wan and Yoda decided Anakin needed to be killed after turning? Talk about friends with little faith.

36 - Was Vader really "but the learner" when he "left" Obi-Wan? (ANH vs. ROTS)

Well, he lost the fight, didn't he? Anakin was more powerful but Obi-Wan was more experienced. And I think it's pretty often stressed that experience beats raw, unseasoned power most of the time.

37 - Did Obi-Wan really stop going by that name (and start going by the name "Ben") "before" Luke was born? (ANH vs. ROTS)

Actually it was about five minutes after he was born. I think it was just an old man dramatizing again.

1 - Age of the Republic. ANH: "A thousand generations" vs. AOTC: "a thousand years"
2 - AOTC/ROTS: All stormtroopers are clones of Jango Fett. OT: they have different heights and different voices... none of them sound like Temura Morrison.
5 - When did Obi-Wan Kenobi serve Bail Organa during the Clone Wars? (ANH)
8 - Why did Ben Kenobi forget about Leia (ESB vs. ROTS)?
14 - Why doesn't R2D2 ever use his rocket boosters again? (AOTC/ROTS)


I consider these indefensible, confirmed plot holes. It's the main reason prequels usually aren't done, it's too easy to forget the things you stated in the first films, especially in the span of 20 years. Sure, Star Wars isn't perfect, but it's got far less plot holes than some people claim.

And Kurgan, do you hate Harry Potter this much? Calm down!
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#74 User is offline   Despondent Icon

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 01:40 PM

Welcome, rosenrot. We can always use another apologist. (BTW, when I say "use", I mean disregard).
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Posted 21 August 2007 - 06:38 PM

Hey, he seemed like a nice enough fellow to me. sad.gif
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